Buying Split Tickets from Station Office

[doubletrackemble]

I've seen on the NRE website that the cheapest tickets for my particular journey are obtained by splitting the route into 3. If I go to the local station office and state this to the staff member, will they sell me the 3 tickets or will they just sell me the 'normal' route.
Presumably if I don't mention this combination I would definitely just be sold the normal origin/destination route?
Thanks.

 

[glynn80]

Short answer is yes. They are obliged to sell you any point to point ticket in the country regardless of operator or restriction.

 

[doubletrackemble]

Thanks for response, although having read some other threads I see there is an issue about whether the train actually stops at your intermediate ticket point (or whether it is a through-train).

For info, my specific query relates to a Newport-Reading Off-Peak Return, which I've calculated is cheapest by splitting into Newport-Swindon (14.40), Swindon-Didcot (8.40) and Didcot-Reading (5), so in theory I'd need to catch a Newport-Reading train that stops at Didcot for this to be 'legal' (or else change trains at Didcot?)

 

[glynn80]

Thanks for response, although having read some other threads I see there is an issue about whether the train actually stops at your intermediate ticket point (or whether it is a through-train).

For info, my specific query relates to a Newport-Reading Off-Peak Return, which I've calculated is cheapest by splitting into Newport-Swindon (14.40), Swindon-Didcot (8.40) and Didcot-Reading (5), so in theory I'd need to catch a Newport-Reading train that stops at Didcot for this to be 'legal' (or else change trains at Didcot?)

Yes you have to travel on a train that stops at Swindon and Didcot. Swindon obviously isn't an issue as they all stop there, I believe only 1 train out of the 2 per hour stops at Didcot and this may be further reduced during the peaks so do be wary of that fact. You can of course always ask the Train Manager of a non stop service whether he will accept your combination if you arrive at the station in time for a non stop service.

 

[323235]

ive asked for split ticket from a conductor and a revenue protection officer successfully in the past

some staff might be a bit funny even though they are obliged too but ive had good ones so far

go for it

 

[ashworth]

An Offpeak Day Return from Hucknall (Robin Hood Line north of Nottingham) to Birmingham is £18. When making this journey I have always paid the conductor on the train buying two tickets, splitting my ticket at Nottingham. Then it works out at £2.70 OPR from Hucknall to Nottingham and £13.10 OPR from Nottingham to Birmingham. Total of £15.80, saving me £2.20. Incidently each time rail fares rise the amount you can save by splitting tickets at Nottingham gets larger.

The last time I did this journey and asked for these tickets, the conductor was very helpful and informed me that if I split the tickets at Bulwell I would save an extra 50p.
Hucknall-Bulwell £2.20 OPR and Bulwell-Birmingham £13.10 OPR, a total of £15.30.
It might not be much but I thought it was very good of him to tell me this.

I do wonder why the through fare from Hucknall to Birmingham is so much higher than the fare from both Nottingham and Bulwell on a relatively local Day Return.

 

[mumrar]

The reason for the difference in through ticket prices is usually down to the ticket type differences. This is not the case with the journey from Hucknall to Birmingham, but it may also come down to some local area subsidy. That can make short hop fares cheap, but would not subsidise tickets travelling through the subsidised area.

On CrossCountry at the moment we have a big issue with fare errors in our machines for First Class travel. Generally the First Class is between 1.8 or 2.8 times more, but I've found one that is truly ridiculous (and definately incorrect). Stansted to Peterbprugh route Not London an Off-Peak Retrun costs £18.80, quite reasonable. The First Class is listed as £128.20, a full 6.8x greater than the standard!!! How ridiculous

 

[ashworth]

The reason for the difference in through ticket prices is usually down to the ticket type differences. This is not the case with the journey from Hucknall to Birmingham, but it may also come down to some local area subsidy. That can make short hop fares cheap, but would not subsidise tickets travelling through the subsidised area.

I understand exactly what you are saying about a local area subsidy but i don't think that is the case here. Other OPR to fairly local destinations like Leicester, Lincoln and Derby from Hucknall are approximately the same price as the fare from Nottingham plus the £2.70. It mainly seems to be journeys to the Birmingham area where there is this big difference between fares from Nottingham and Hucknall.

 

[blacknight]

Been in the papers again advantage of buying a split ticket & saving money but there are only showing the positive aspect of this method, what they dont say is that for both ticket to be valid the train must stop at station where one ticket ends & other begins. If train dont stop there you ticket is not valid & you are then liable for full fare.
Also if you are planning to connect with last connection of the day with a split ticket the TOC as no obligation to get you there as you are deemed to have missed the service so in saving pennies you could find yourself spending ten times as much on replacement tickets & taxi fares homehock:

 

[caughtonatrain]

Short answer is yes. They are obliged to sell you any point to point ticket in the country regardless of operator or restriction.

That's what I thought too. However, EMT staff at Sheffield have become decidedly sniffy about this.

There is no Day Return ticket Sheffield-Birmingham. So I usually ask for a Day Return Sheffield-Derby and then an Offpeak Day Return Derby-Birmingham. This weighs in at under £20, a reasonable amount for my day's business in Birmingham. (I travel on behalf of a registered charity so can't be splashing the cash about on 30 day validity that I don't need). I get the OffPeak from Derby because I know there will be no restrictions at the time I get to Derby. I return late evening. All through XC trains stop at Derby. Very ocasionally I use EMT changing at Derby.

Last few times I have run into trouble when buying my tickets. They've refused to sell me an Off Peak from Derby because I bought it at peak times (in Sheffield). Reason: "all my tickets have to be under the same restrictions". Utter tosh in my mind. They should sell me the exact tickets I specify. It's up to the Conductor/Guard/whatever to assess validity.

I wrote to EMT and got no joy:

"... I have liaised with Sheffield station and our Retail Team and I have been advised that as you are purchasing two fares to complete your journey. [sic] This is known as a combination of tickets rather than one directly between two stations. The general rule on this is that the train you are travelling on must be scheduled to stop at the station where one ticket expires and the other one begins. Any time restrictions on the original ticket type will exist for the entire journey."

As far as I am aware, there is no such "general rule". (Whose rule?) Can anyone clarify if this the case or are they (as I suspect) wilfully inventing a rule that does not exist and indeed breaking the law by not selling me the tickets I specify and require?

Thanks in advance

 

[paul1609]

I dont think they are obliged to sell you a day return ticket before it is valid. Dating back to BR days ticket offices in the former NSE area will not sell off peak tickets until shortly before they are valid and the Southern and Southwest trains quickfare machines dont offer them either.

 

[clagmonster]

"The general rule on this is that the train you are travelling on must be scheduled to stop at the station where one ticket expires and the other one begins."
Correct, as stated in the conditions on carriage, and by the sounds of things nothing you didn't already know. All Sheffield-Brum trains stop at Derby, so not a problem.
"Any time restrictions on the original ticket type will exist for the entire journey."
Time restrictions for the Sheffield-Derby ticket apply to the Sheffield-Derby leg, time restrictions for the Derby-Birmingham ticket apply to the Derby-Birmingham leg. Cheap day return Sheffield-Derby is valid on any train departing at or after 09:00, Derby-Birmingham both portions are valid at or after 09:30 and not between 15:30-18:15. Be careful with the evening restriction on the return. As long as you stick to these restrictions, the tickets are valid.

 

[ashworth]

I always find this idea about not selling a Day Return ticket before it is valid a strange one, especially when these tickets can be purchased up to 3 months in advance when buying online!
Does it really matter at what time the ticket is purchased as long as you follow the correct time restrictions for that ticket?

I know that nothing can beat the convenience of pay on the day tickets but I do sometimes buy Day Return tickets a few days in advance especially if I am travelling on a busy train where the seats are reservable. I have even found on a few occasions where I have split my journey into 2 or more Day Returns that my seat reservations have been for the same seat for all parts of my journey!

 

[dan_atki]

I dont think they are obliged to sell you a day return ticket before it is valid. Dating back to BR days ticket offices in the former NSE area will not sell off peak tickets until shortly before they are valid and the Southern and Southwest trains quickfare machines dont offer them either.

But surely that's down to the customer to assess? I could book any ticket online to pick up at the ticket machine (or have posted to me), I could also buy the same tickets the night before travel (and presumably without a problem).

I once purchased an in-boundary travelcard (i.e. with no validity outside the zones - not valid until 0930) from an out-boundary station at about 0750. Once it was established how I was travelling into the zones, and that I was aware about the time restriction (I was to arrive in London at about 0920) then I had no problems getting what I wanted.

Regarding the 'switchover rule' (as I shall refer to it), obviously in this case all trains stop at Derby so there is no problem but the train must call to both set down and pick up at the point the tickets swap over. In a sense it is like you could legitimately get off the train (i.e. it sets down at that station), buy the ticket there, and get back on the same train before it leaves (i.e. it also picks up at that station).

If failing to specify your plans to the staff in Sheffield does the trick (i.e. 'I'm getting such-and-such a train, it leaves Derby at such-and-such a time when the off-peak ticket becomes valid') then make a point of queueing up again to get the second ticket (if they refuse two tickets in the same transaction with different restrictions - which is, as you say, absolutely stupid).

If that doesn't work then again state your intentions, and if that still fails seek the train manager on the train to get the second ticket (highlighting the fact the staff at Sheffield refused to sell you it despite it being valid).

It is indeed incorrect about the restrictions of the original ticket lasting the entire journey to Birmingham. Once you have left Derby, no-one even need know you travelled from Sheffield!

 

[yorkie]

Also if you are planning to connect with last connection of the day with a split ticket the TOC as no obligation to get you there as you are deemed to have missed the service so in saving pennies you could find yourself spending ten times as much on replacement tickets & taxi fares homehock:

Do you have a source for this?

NCoC states "You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies...."

So who is claiming they can't count as one journey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The general rule on this is that the train you are travelling on must be scheduled to stop at the station where one ticket expires and the other one begins.

That's one rule, yes...

Any time restrictions on the original ticket type will exist for the entire journey."

Not true, but if it were true, you'd actually be less restricted. As you could get an Anytime to Derby then an Off Peak from there and travel at say 6am if the Anytime applied for the whole journey! So of course it's a load of rubbish. But EMT are well known for this. See posts by Roland Perry in uk.railway for some examples.

Any chance of some contact details for these people? I'd like to give them a call some time!

 

[PTF62]

Surely the simplest thing to do is not to get into a discussion about what you want to do with the station staff. If you tell them that you are splitting tickets, but it is OK, because of x, y or z, then they will find excuses a, b and c, why they can't sell you the tickets.

Have you tried buying the tickets the other way around, i.e. the off-peak Derby-Birmingham ticket, before the Sheffield-Derby ticket, so they can't use their whole journey excuse, and they have already sold you the set of tickets that they really don't want to sell you.

Also you could just lie and tell them you want two tickets as you have a meeting in Derby and then another one in Birmingham. So what if en-route you change your mind.

Obviously you shouldn't need to lie, but provide the tickets are valid, then sometimes it is just simpler than engaging with a pointless life sapping battle with a faceless bureaucracy.

 

[glynn80]

This very issue is covered in the Retail Standards Guide issued by ATOC to all TOC retail managers. Especially of interest for this issue is B.41 and B.43 although I placed B.42 in for completeness.

B.4 Product Range Obligations
B.4.1 Products Retailers Must Sell
• ALL fares for journeys with a DIRECT service from that station
• Young Persons and Senior Railcards
• Permanent Fares that are BASIC contained in NFM information held at that station
• Temporary Fares if:
– They are BASIC products
– The creator of the fare wishes it to be sold at that station
– The creator of the fare has supplied the relevant supporting material and issuing instructions
• Reservations or Upgrades that relate to the flows mentioned above.
• Other Discount Cards (e.g. Railcards) if:
– They are BASIC products
– The creator of the fare wishes it to be sold at that station
– The creator of the fare has supplied the relevant supporting material and issuing instructions

These obligations apply only if the relevant fares can be issued on the Ticket Issuing Machine in use at that station.

B.4.2. Products Retailers May Choose to Sell
• Any other permanent fare (TSA clause 6-6(1))
• Any temporary or special fare if:
– It was created by their own TOC
– The TOC that created it wishes that fare to be sold at that station
– It has been provided with relevant issuing instructions, bar-codes and back up material
– It has been supplied with the means for the sale to be recorded for Rail Settlement Plan purposes (TSA clauses 6-6(2) & 6-6(3))
• Excess Fares (subject to certain rules) - see separate publication(s) (TSA clause 6-6(4))
• Any other Discount Card if:
– It was created by their own TOC
– The TOC that created it wishes that fare to be sold at that station (TSA clause 6-6(5))
• Any Reservation or Upgrade if the TOC that created it wishes it to be sold at that station.
The Retailer can do this even if it has not sold or been asked for a travel ticket for that journey (TSA clause 6-6(6)).
• Any non-rail product if:
– It was created by their own TOC
– The TOC that created it wishes it to be sold there and has provided all necessary details
– Rail Settlement Plan says it is required or permitted to sell it (TSA clause 6-9(1)) July 2006 15

B.4.3 Offering / Selling a Customer a Fare or a Combination of Fares for their Journey
• When a customer requests a journey for which a through fare is available, the Retailer should always offer / sell that through fare to the customer. The Retailer should not suggest that the customer buys a combination of fares.
• When a customer requests a specific combination of fares for a journey for which a through fare is also available, the Retailer, at an impartial point of sale, should sell this combination (provided the Retailer would normally be allowed to sell those fares separately) and between them, they are valid for the whole journey requested. The Retailer must make a reasonable attempt to ensure that the combined fares meet the customer’s requirements (TSA clause 6-31). The Retailer must specifically refer the customer to the limitations on the use of combinations of tickets shown in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (clause 19).
• When a customer requests a journey for which a through fare is not available in the Fares database, the Fare Manuals or Ticket Machines provided at an impartial point of sale, the Retailer should offer / sell a combination of two or more point to point fares (provided the
Retailer would normally be allowed to sell those fares separately) which, between them, are valid for the whole journey. For example, a customer may wish to “double back” via London to take advantage of a faster journey opportunity. Without a “via London” fare, two separate tickets would be required. The Retailer must make a reasonable attempt to ensure that the combined fares meet the customer’s requirements (TSA clause 6-31). The Retailer must specifically refer the customer to clause 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

If the OP wants to contact me via Private Message with regard to the person they spoke to at EMT, I may be able to assist.

 

[blacknight]

Do you have a source for this?

NCoC states "You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies...."

So who is claiming they can't count as one journey?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Any chance of some contact details for these people? I'd like to give them a call some time!

Maybe in the days of BR a split ticket would cover you if last connection of the day was missed to your end destination station, but in the world of different TOC's who would pay for taxi to get you to your end destination.
For instance if you are travelling on a through ticket from stations A-C if first train runs in late TOC1 pays for taxi.
However if you are travelling on on separate tickets from stations A-B & onward BC. First train then misses connection then TOC1 as completed its contract with you but you as passenger have failed to present yourself for second train which departed right time so TOC2 decline your request for taxi as your contract with them is to get you from station B-C.
Same rule would apply to Advance Purchase ticket & onward connections through ticket would get you on next service but split AP tickets & its your responsibility to present yourself at station on time for departure.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Maybe in the days of BR a split ticket would cover you if last connection of the day was missed to your end destination station, but in the world of different TOC's who would pay for taxi to get you to your end destination.

... split AP tickets & its your responsibility to present yourself at station on time for departure.

Sorry. Don't buy this argument. National Rail Condition of Carriage number 25 (c) states that "if your journey involves a change of train, you allow at least the minimum interchange time shown in the National Rail timetable for the station where you change trains".

Therefore, if you have allowed sufficient interchange time at the station where you change trains in your journey, but still miss your last onward train because the first train you were on was late arriving, then you will have been stranded because of circumstances which are covered in National Rail Condition of Carriage number 43, in which case I reckon that you can expect that "any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you."

Doesn't matter whether you have a through ticket, or split tickets, or AP tickets, in my opinion. And if it's a question of who pays for the taxi, it's the TOC whose train arrived late at the interchange station who should bear the cost, they may have got you there, but they got you there late and left you stranded!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You sound like me Blacknight, but I think this is another case of two (or more) people not agreeing with what is written in black and white, I think you will have to do what myself and yorkie seem to do on a regular basis, agree to disagree.

Just to have my say about buying split tickets in regards to tickets being issued at times when they are not valid. As a general rule, I do issue tickets that are not valid to travel at the time of issue, if it is not possible for the journey to be made when its not valid (the last peak train has departed, it is to travel from another station, etc, etc).

I do however, remember something written about not selling off-peak (cheap day as it was then) tickets at peak time on the day of travel like someone else mentioned, but I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it and can't say that it still applies.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I do however, remember something written about not selling off-peak (cheap day as it was then) tickets at peak time on the day of travel like someone else mentioned, but I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it and can't say that it still applies.

:roll: According to the National Rail website, "You can buy Off-Peak tickets any time before you travel."

The "Buy any time" bit seems straightforward enough to me! Link:- http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/simple_fares.html

Buy any time, travel off-peak

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Would you turn up at a station at 8am and ask specifically for an off peak ticket for travel from that station at 10am, when there are other trains going the same way inbetween?

I know I wouldn't, not intentionally atleast, anyway, I haven't seen it for years so maybe they have got rid of it.

 

[caughtonatrain]

Hi

Thanks to everybody who has contributed a reply to my post about time-restrictions on split tickets. I am heartened to see that it's not just me.

In some ways I agree with PTF62 that I should just "lie" but to be honest I'm not sure why I should. It has almost become a point of principle. The TOCs are running scared from the split-ticketing issue, esp as it garners media coverage, as they see it as a threat to their revenue. They don't seem to see that it's a result of a byzantine and illogical fares structure. Britain is a compact and dense country (esp. England) in which travel between two major cities within a day is nearly always feasible. Why day return fares are not available for all flows I'm not sure.

Some posters have asked for details of the EMT contact. I don't know the names of the staff at the Ticket Office window and wouldn't want to villify any individuals. Their behaviour recently smacks of management trying to tighten things up but, that said, there are clearly staff that are more friendly and accommodating than others - they're the credit to the railways, not the jobsworth make-them-up-on-the-fly restrictions-merchants. Like other posters I have come across staff who have actively suggested split ticketing and have been really helpful in helping me avoid otherwise outrageous fares.

The EMT head office contact is a Customer Relations Officer who I suspect is following orders. The funny bit is that she said...

"... I'm sure you can appreciate that as an industry we do need to try to protect our revenue and for this reason if staff are aware that you are purchasing a combination of tickets to be able to get around restrictions, and [sic] they are correct to refuse to sell the combination of tickets."

Well, that's the bit that infuriated me. What about my right to legally and within the rules try to protect MY revenue as a customer!!!!???

 

[blacknight]

Hi

Thanks to everybody who has contributed a reply to my post about time-restrictions on split tickets. I am heartened to see that it's not just me.

In some ways I agree with PTF62 that I should just "lie" but to be honest I'm not sure why I should. It has almost become a point of principle. The TOCs are running scared from the split-ticketing issue, esp as it garners media coverage, as they see it as a threat to their revenue. They don't seem to see that it's a result of a byzantine and illogical fares structure. Britain is a compact and dense country (esp. England) in which travel between two major cities within a day is nearly always feasible. Why day return fares are not available for all flows I'm not sure.

Some posters have asked for details of the EMT contact. I don't know the names of the staff at the Ticket Office window and wouldn't want to villify any individuals. Their behaviour recently smacks of management trying to tighten things up but, that said, there are clearly staff that are more friendly and accommodating than others - they're the credit to the railways, not the jobsworth make-them-up-on-the-fly restrictions-merchants. Like other posters I have come across staff who have actively suggested split ticketing and have been really helpful in helping me avoid otherwise outrageous fares.

The EMT head office contact is a Customer Relations Officer who I suspect is following orders. The funny bit is that she said...

"... I'm sure you can appreciate that as an industry we do need to try to protect our revenue and for this reason if staff are aware that you are purchasing a combination of tickets to be able to get around restrictions, and [sic] they are correct to refuse to sell the combination of tickets."

Well, that's the bit that infuriated me. What about my right to legally and within the rules try to protect MY revenue as a customer!!!!???

You are more than intitled to defend your revenue by chosing to buy a split ticket thats your choice but next time you are wait in line to buy a ticket & person at window is taking an age, could just be that clerk is having to explain rules for that split ticket to be valid for example train as to stop at station where ticket join, should you still be waiting as train pulls in.
You are right that management issue directives on split ticketing but likewise you cannot expect to have your cake & eat it should your tickets be connecting & trains don't, if then thats last connection of the night no TOC is going to fund a taxi to your onward destination even BR was a business not a charity.
As there are advantages there as to disadvantages otherwise theres no incentive to buy a through ticket again.

 

[Bill Badger]

Would you turn up at a station at 8am and ask specifically for an off peak ticket for travel from that station at 10am, when there are other trains going the same way inbetween?

Absolutely

I catch the train to work using my annual season ticket in the morning. Later in the day I wish to travel to on somewhere else. I know the queue at the ticket office can be long after work so I want to buy that ticket now, so that I don't have queue later in the day.

This precise scenario will happen to me on Thursday, so from the discussion so far I'm guessing I need to buy my ticket tomorrow as I can do so a day in advance without any problems?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You are right that management issue directives on split ticketing but likewise you cannot expect to have your cake & eat it should your tickets be connecting & trains don't, if then thats last connection of the night no TOC is going to fund a taxi to your onward destination even BR was a business not a charity.

Sorry, don't agree with your point 'Blacknight'. In my opinion, purchasing split tickets doesn't mean that you have automatically waived your rights to assistance if you end up being stranded, provided that you had of course allowed yourself at least the minimum interchange time on your intended journey at the changeover station.

As regards the most recent post by 'Caughtonatrain', it would be interesting to see what Passenger Focus would make of East Midlands Trains' customer relations response(s). Seems to be a clear breach of EMT's impartial selling obligations.

 

[eezypeazy]

I am travelling from Prudhoe (PRU) to Sandwell and Dudley (SAD) on business on Thursday 19 March. To get the most out of the day, I shall leave PRU at 0630hrs and return from SAD (an unfortunate abbreviation!) at 1702hrs. The Trainline offered me a return fare of a whopping £153.00. However, by splitting the ticket, I was able to achieve this:
Prudhoe (d 0630hrs) - York (a 0758hrs) OPDR £33.70
York (d 0827) -Sheffield ADR £16.90
Sheffield (d 0923)-Derby OPDR £8.20 and
Derby-Sandwell ADR £13.70

making a total of just £72.50, well less than half the "through" ticket. The only difference in my journey is that I shall use NEx YRK-NCL both ways, which means I have half an hour in York in the morning, rather than in NCL - I am guessing that it's the arrival in YRK before 0800 and the departue from SHF after 0900 that makes these two "legs" off peak both outward and on my return.

Despite having three tickets covering YRK to BNS on one train each way, the retail staff at Hexham were able to get me "through" seat reservations between the two.

All these tickets could have been purchased individually on The Trainline, however, as I had some rail vouchers courtesy of the "Delay Repay" scheme, I went to the station to use them.

And yes, the staff didn't bat an eyelid at my split tickets!

Regards

eezypeazy

 

[Mojo]

I have to agree with eezypeazy's experience - when I've done it in the past, many ticket office staff laugh at how silly it is to have to buy multiple tickets in order to get a good deal. I once had an experience with a Chiltern employee at Haddenham & Thame Parkway who refused to believe me that it was cheaper to split at Banbury than buy a single through ticket all the way to Birmingham - he had no problems selling the ticket but asked me why I was doing it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Absolutely

I catch the train to work using my annual season ticket in the morning. Later in the day I wish to travel to on somewhere else. I know the queue at the ticket office can be long after work so I want to buy that ticket now, so that I don't have queue later in the day.

This precise scenario will happen to me on Thursday, so from the discussion so far I'm guessing I need to buy my ticket tomorrow as I can do so a day in advance without any problems?

Perhaps I should have been more specific.

 

[ian13]

Would you turn up at a station at 8am and ask specifically for an off peak ticket for travel from that station at 10am, when there are other trains going the same way inbetween?

I know I wouldn't, not intentionally atleast, anyway, I haven't seen it for years so maybe they have got rid of it.

I have done a similar thing, turning up at 9ish due to buses, and trying to buy an off-peak ticket (valid after 9.30am) with a railcard (not minimum fare, so after 10.00am) to travel on the 10.02 and watch the trains leave in the mean time. In my experience, they just sigh, and I'm faced with a similar experience at the barriers.