Buying back heritage lines

[Bletchleyite]

The Northumberland line is a good example. Subsidy costs are relatively easy to quantify and they're enormous. It's well used at the low fares currently charged. Having used it I'd say it brings much benefit. How much in cost terms, spread over maybe the next 50+ years, is very difficult to calculate against what alternative uses those subsidies could be used for.

One thing that I find a bit of an issue in the UK is that the choice is pretty much always (give or take the odd Busway) between an extraordinarily expensive rail reinstatement and a run of the mill, poor quality bus service that isn't in any way integrated with the railway fares and timetables system. There isn't seemingly scope to put half the subsidy into a really, really good fully-integrated electric bus operation for instance.

It's quite heartening that Wales is willing to look at a middle ground there and is pursuing true integration on a Swiss like model.

Not to say that buses are always the answer (they aren't) but they can be.

 

[CMS1]

None of these schemes are going to be profitable. The question, as with any reopening, is cost-benefit to justify the subsidy.

The ones that can be achieved with extended an existing service e.g. extending Paignton to Kingswear will be less costly than a completey new service. If it only ran in peak commuting hours for some heritage services during the day it would cut out the worst loss-making services

 

[duffield]

The ones that can be achieved with extended an existing service e.g. extending Paignton to Kingswear will be less costly than a completey new service. If it only ran in peak commuting hours for some heritage services during the day it would cut out the worst loss-making services

I'm not convinced a "commuter hours only" service will ever work. With today's flexible working and people's different types of working hours what exactly are "peak commuting hours"? What use is it if there's a convenient train in one direction and nothing in the other direction at the times you need? What if you have the afternoon off? I think any users would soon get fed up with the inflexibility. Hasn't the balance shifted towards leisure and random journeys anyhow? Is there even significant daily commuter travel from Kingswear to Paignton by road at present? In practice I think a couple of morning and evening services for Kingswear would fail, but an hourly service minimum throughout the day would have a better chance (not saying that would succeed either though, and it would make operating heritage services difficult at best).

 

[Stephen42]

I can see, just, how an application to have a line treated as "heritage" on some days and "network" on others might work, but not by mixing and matching light rail rules with heavy rail rules - especially on single track. When you then add the engineering considerations for mixing the different vehicle types and compliance with things like accessibility regulations, the whole thing becomes excessively complicated.

If you were talking about a short branch*, I can see how these might work and, with the right application and goodwill, a solution be found. If we look at the WSR, one of the major examples raised, that 25mph limit is why the railway is not a viable public transport alternative and makes the line excessively slow.

* - for the sake of example, and noting that the idea has been investigated and rejected, the KWVR

Having separate days will also be a struggle as on many lines the busiest days will be the same for both. For Minehead the railway as a transport offering doesn't work if the summer season are heritage days of operation. These schemes would either need the heritage operator to vacate or the infrastructure to be designed to cope with both operations. Heritage railways typically want to keep passengers on site to increase ancillary revenue and many tourists would feel short changed from a speedy trip.

The costs for the West Somerset Railway to increase speed and allow fast NR services alongside slower heritage ones are probably a magnitude greater than fitting the safety devices (central door locking and a train protection system) to a relatively small fleet. It would be much cheaper if the heritage operator ceased operations, but would cause significant outcry. The costs to meet mainline standards and increase speed are still going to be high.

 

[35B]

Having separate days will also be a struggle as on many lines the busiest days will be the same for both. For Minehead the railway as a transport offering doesn't work if the summer season are heritage days of operation. These schemes would either need the heritage operator to vacate or the infrastructure to be designed to cope with both operations. Heritage railways typically want to keep passengers on site to increase ancillary revenue and many tourists would feel short changed from a speedy trip.

The costs for the West Somerset Railway to increase speed and allow fast NR services alongside slower heritage ones are probably a magnitude greater than fitting the safety devices (central door locking and a train protection system) to a relatively small fleet. It would be much cheaper if the heritage operator ceased operations, but would cause significant outcry. The costs to meet mainline standards and increase speed are still going to be high.

Precisely. And all this for a net decrease in economic contribution to the area.

 

[Mike Machin]

Living just ten minutes drive from Alresford, I would love to see the Mid Hants electrified with Alresford being the terminus for a half-hourly peak and hourly off-peak service to and from Waterloo.

Most of my local friends and neighbours have said the same too!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Living just ten minutes drive from Alresford, I would love to see the Mid Hants electrified with Alresford being the terminus for a half-hourly peak and hourly off-peak service to and from Waterloo.

Most of my local friends and neighbours have said the same too!

And as someone actually local to one of the preserved lines, would you be happy to see the preserved line go to allow for this?

(not trying to look for a fight, but to gauge local opinion - admittedly on the basis of a sample of one)

 

[CMS1]

Be interesting to hear. Arguably in a commuter town like Alresford (rather than a tourist destination like Minehead), separate days could work - by doing NR on weekdays and heritage services on weekends (not necessarily all year round).

 

[Trainlog]

Be interesting to hear. Arguably in a commuter town like Alresford (rather than a tourist destination like Minehead), separate days could work - by doing NR on weekdays and heritage services on weekends (not necessarily all year round).

The Mid Hants has to be up there as one of the lines most enthusiasts, regardless of whether they are interested in Steam or Diesel, are likely to revisit due to the decent gradient of the line and the Steam and Diesel collections present on the line.

As others have also brought up on here, why would operational heritage railways, especially the Mid Hants, want to go to the trouble of kitting locos and the line's stations and infrastructure out to comply with National Rail standards, especially when the line has a resident 9f locomotive?

 

[Falcon1200]

The question has to be, could a National Rail service over a heritage railway justify the cost, both initial and ongoing (subsidy), plus the loss of the heritage aspect, and attract enough traffic away from the alternatives available now to justify it? The lack of any such service, or even just serious consideration of one, is surely the answer!

 

[fishwomp]

Nothing prevents an existing heritage line from being a 7 days a week line on a private basis, if the line chose to do it - with existing track and speed limits.

If a line is relatively short, the speed limit is irrelevant. It also needs a platform at national rail station. It needs a decent population size.

What could work?

• KWVR - Haworth to Keighley (3.5 miles) - peak hours with a 144, connects at Keighley to Leeds/Bradford.
• Cholsey & Wallingford -
• SVR - probably too long and small towns
• (Others, I am sure)

a small begging bowl to the mayors may get KWVR or SVR off the blocks!

But yeah, West Somerset and Swanage are the obvious choices for a good rebuilt line at national rail levels.

 

[daodao]

The question has to be, could a National Rail service over a heritage railway justify the cost, both initial and ongoing (subsidy), plus the loss of the heritage aspect, and attract enough traffic away from the alternatives available now to justify it? The lack of any such service, or even just serious consideration of one, is surely the answer!

TfGM are seriously considering a tram-train service from Rochdale to Bury, using the track of the existing heritage East Lancashire Railway west of Heywood.

 

[CMS1]

As others have also brought up on here, why would operational heritage railways, especially the Mid Hants, want to go to the trouble of kitting locos and the line's stations and infrastructure out to comply with National Rail standards, especially when the line has a resident 9f locomotive?

On the Mid Hants I could see it working if the line stayed in Mid Hants ownership to save them having to modify their fleet, and Network Rail did a speed upgrade (it was initially cleared for 40mph anyway I believe) and pay ongoing access rights to the Mid Hants. Then extend the Waterloo service to New Alresford with a BEMU on weekdays only, and heritage rail at weekends so there's no conflicting operations.

TfGM are seriously considering a tram-train service from Rochdale to Bury, using the track of the existing heritage East Lancashire Railway west of Heywood.

Sounds sensible, would ELR and its visitors actually miss this bit? Although I imagine the people of Heywood would rather a direct rail service to Victoria rather than the tram via Rochdale?

 

[duffield]

...


Sounds sensible, would ELR and its visitors actually miss this bit?
...

I certainly would! It's one of the line's very special attractions, with services sometimes leaving simultaneously down two separate lines, it makes Bury Bolton Street really come alive, and makes for interesting "through services" with a really decent ride length.

Not sure how much the "normals" would care though!

Anyhow, I think the first stage is tram-trains from Rochdale to Heywood (which should have no significant impact on the ELR, there's plenty of room to share at Heywood) and that's probably many years away as there are no tram-trains at all yet, so I'm not too concerned.

 

[aron2smith]

I loved riding the old steam and diesel trains on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway but think if the section from Malton to Pickering could be restored, direct trains from York and much further afield to Whitby would make a lot of sense. For a small town, it is quite the draw for visitors all around. I went on the train from Middlesborough on a Saturday in February nearly 2 years ago, train was packed. Saw some really busy buses there too. Public transport despite clear demand seems a bit inadequate for North Yorkshire.

Also seconded with West Somerset Railway, feels like such a waste that it doesn't get at least the service Weston Super Mare gets. Minehead traffic is no joke! John Betjeman was right about these sort of places in the end. His 60s documentary was about Burnham on Sea, only up the road. As for Minehead, the 28 bus is inadequate for the local demand. Needs dedicated luggage spaces and double deckers.

 

[35B]

On the Mid Hants I could see it working if the line stayed in Mid Hants ownership to save them having to modify their fleet, and Network Rail did a speed upgrade (it was initially cleared for 40mph anyway I believe) and pay ongoing access rights to the Mid Hants. Then extend the Waterloo service to New Alresford with a BEMU on weekdays only, and heritage rail at weekends so there's no conflicting operations.

The point is that the change of speed limit would require modernisation of the fleet to meet the law that applies to lines where the speed limit is over 25mph. You also omit the minor matter of the summer season - what happens then?

I loved riding the old steam and diesel trains on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway but think if the section from Malton to Pickering could be restored, direct trains from York and much further afield to Whitby would make a lot of sense. For a small town, it is quite the draw for visitors all around. I went on the train from Middlesborough on a Saturday in February nearly 2 years ago, train was packed. Saw some really busy buses there too. Public transport despite clear demand seems a bit inadequate for North Yorkshire.

Also seconded with West Somerset Railway, feels like such a waste that it doesn't get at least the service Weston Super Mare gets. Minehead traffic is no joke! John Betjeman was right about these sort of places in the end. His 60s documentary was about Burnham on Sea, only up the road. As for Minehead, the 28 bus is inadequate for the local demand. Needs dedicated luggage spaces and double deckers.

Both NYMR and WSR have very clear evidence that the numbers simply wouldn't stack up, following repeated investigation. The heritage railway is what draws a lot of the demand and replacement with 2 car Sprinters (all that is plausibly likely) would not get the same traffic.

 

[aron2smith]

One thing that I find a bit of an issue in the UK is that the choice is pretty much always (give or take the odd Busway) between an extraordinarily expensive rail reinstatement and a run of the mill, poor quality bus service that isn't in any way integrated with the railway fares and timetables system. There isn't seemingly scope to put half the subsidy into a really, really good fully-integrated electric bus operation for instance.

It's quite heartening that Wales is willing to look at a middle ground there and is pursuing true integration on a Swiss like model.

Not to say that buses are always the answer (they aren't) but they can be.

I actually agree with you. This is where it really needs to be a case by case basis. Studying the old rail maps and comparing it to the bus service today, buses win out in a number of places, precisely because they connect with the nearest big town or city. Railways often connect in some really random places.

When I learned that the Bury Line in Manchester was once a railway, I had a long think about it and concluded the tram beats the train hands down in terms of frequency and connectivity. Even on Sundays, the tram runs every 15 minutes. I doubt the train was ever that frequent and seems like the journey time to Victoria wouldn't be that different.

Another thread on here very recently was saying similarly about the Luton-Dunstable Busway.

I think what has to change to get what you are saying to happen is to stop seeing buses and trains as being in competition with each other. Same with trams. I see buses as being feeders to the railway in many cases and think the continent gets this while it's not quite caught on here yet.

A really good example of integrated public transport I experience was with the Hovercraft from Southsea to Ryde, Isle of Wight. Train from either Waterloo or Victoria to Portsmouth and Southsea or Portsmouth Harbour. In the station at the Portsmouth end, information about the connecting bus, less than 10 minute wait at a bus stop across the road, short ride to the Hovercraft terminal, after check in, less than 10 minute until we boarded the Hovercraft and left Portsmouth. The train, connecting bus and Hovercraft all on one ticket! And very smooth transition between all 3. Then on the Isle of Wight side, the railway and bus station were literally next door to the Hovercraft terminal. How it should be.

The reality between most bus and train operations seems to be unclear ticketing and deliberately putting bus stops and rail stations apart and making sure they don't time with each other at all. Big part of my own complaints really. If the Hovercraft was ran like most public transport, it would either be walk a mile or catch an inconveniently timed and late running bus that only takes you 1/2 or 2/3 of the way and miss the train by 5 minutes! Meaning 25 minutes to the next one.

I agree what is happening in Wales is very positive, I hope it is successful.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

There was a plan, about 15 years ago now, for the Mid Hants Railway to run a trial commuter service from Medstead to Alton using a Parry People Mover. (see https://www.47soton.co.uk/2011/01/parry-people-mover-at-medstead-21st.html)

The trial got cancelled at the last minute, due to problems with the railcar. (Possibly that it couldn't handle the gradients, but I'm not 100% sure).

However, if it was desired, there's no reason it couldn't be run with MHR's new Class 150 DMU.

 

[aron2smith]

The point is that the change of speed limit would require modernisation of the fleet to meet the law that applies to lines where the speed limit is over 25mph. You also omit the minor matter of the summer season - what happens then?

Both NYMR and WSR have very clear evidence that the numbers simply wouldn't stack up, following repeated investigation. The heritage railway is what draws a lot of the demand and replacement with 2 car Sprinters (all that is plausibly likely) would not get the same traffic.

I don't get why, where heritage lines have connections with the national rail network, why we can't have seasonal special services from our main stations? Didn't SWR run trains to Swanage every summer for a couple years?

 

[CMS1]

The point is that the change of speed limit would require modernisation of the fleet to meet the law that applies to lines where the speed limit is over 25mph. You also omit the minor matter of the summer season - what happens then?

The higher speed limit would only apply to NR services during the week. Summer seasons would still be weekends only so Mid Hants will lose some weekday business (not all, some will just transfer to the weekends) but will receive the track access income from NR instead, in this scenario.

 

[35B]

I don't get why, where heritage lines have connections with the national rail network, why we can't have seasonal special services from our main stations? Didn't SWR run trains to Swanage every summer for a couple years?

They did. Which makes the point. They didn't last because they didn't generate enough traffic - whether you're talking about SWR to the Swanage, or (years back) some through services to Minehead for Butlins. And there was freight from the Bodmin & Wenford for a time in the 1990s. Some of the issue is with the government, where DfT are imposing strict requirements for use of subsidy, but the fundamental issue is the impact of the concession that allows heritage railways to operate at all.

The other important point is that these ran at heritage railway speeds, under heritage railway rules. What's being suggested here are services that form part of the national network, running at national network speeds.

That is the game changer that is just simply difficult to deal with:

The higher speed limit would only apply to NR services during the week.

That is not what the law actually says - it applies to the railway, not the operator. If you up the limit to, say 40mph, you have to make everything that runs on the line compliant.

Summer seasons would still be weekends only so Mid Hants will lose some weekday business (not all, some will just transfer to the weekends).

I suspect very few heritage railways, or the rolling stock owners on them that rely on steaming fees, could afford to lose 70% of their peak season days to allow that to happen.

 

[CMS1]

That is not what the law actually says - it applies to the railway, not the operator. If you up the limit to, say 40mph, you have to make everything that runs on the line compliant.

You can have conditional speed limits, e.g. GCR allows 60mph in certain conditions. Or just have a temporary speed limit each weekend.

I suspect very few heritage railways, or the rolling stock owners on them that rely on steaming fees, could afford to lose 70% of their peak season days to allow that to happen.

You're missing the point - this would only happen by making the year's worth of track access income for weekdays (260 days) significantly higher than the year's worth of profit the heritage line would otherwise make from weekday services, otherwise why would they do it? The point is to provide a new transport connection at the same time as making heritage railways more sustainable, not less.

 

[35B]

You can have conditional speed limits, e.g. GCR allows 60mph in certain conditions. Or just have a temporary speed limit each weekend.

The GCR speed limit is highly conditional - on the total exclusion of the public from the railway, and it's operation under what amounts to a possession.

You're missing the point - this would only happen by making the year's worth of track access income for weekdays (260 days) significantly higher than the year's worth of profit the heritage line would otherwise make from weekday services, otherwise why would they do it? The point is to provide a new transport connection at the same time as making heritage railways more sustainable, not less.

I get that point entirely - and that's what I'm seriously doubting would be feasible. It would introduce new costs, while undermining the ability to recoup fixed costs (e.g. locomotive "10 year" overhauls) by reducing the number of days on which heritage trains could run. I also doubt that DfT would be willing to pay a premium for track access to offset losses - if they were really determined to reopen, they have other legal levers to use which would probably be cheaper.

 

[Trainlog]

On the Mid Hants I could see it working if the line stayed in Mid Hants ownership to save them having to modify their fleet, and Network Rail did a speed upgrade (it was initially cleared for 40mph anyway I believe) and pay ongoing access rights to the Mid Hants. Then extend the Waterloo service to New Alresford with a BEMU on weekdays only, and heritage rail at weekends so there's no conflicting operations.

Whilst I acknowledge that the Mid Hants have purchased a Sprinter recently, to what extent I would see them implementing a service like this is rather unlikely considering the amount of planning and logistics involved regarding staffing, signalling, accessibility, infrastructure, etc. It would require a decent subsidy to keep such a service going.

Granted my first post on this thread was a bit long, but the point is, the Dartmoor/Okehampton railway worked as a conversion as it was a heritage railway in a county (Devon) that already had many other heritage railways and the rolling stock wasnt exactly of great appeal to the public and Steam enthusiasts. The lines takeover worked as it was a direct mainline link into Exeter and provided a service as the heritage railway was gone, whilst many line suggested on here are active heritage railways with broad appeal in terms of Steam/diesel rolling stock.

Okehampton would only see heritage traction there again if they decided to send a West Country class down there for a railtour (most likely Railway Touring Company) but thats it in terms of heritage traction for that line. It would be tough for it to be turned back to a heritage railway as the locals have gotten used to it being part of the National network again.

I have an open question to those that live near one of the re-occuring heritage railways being discussed on here. Out of curiosity, what are the buses like in these areas?

I have used the buses around Paignton before, I liked them and it was nice to have buses that didnt become unusable after 7-8pm at night but they where like any other bus in that they constantly stopped every 20metres. I am wondering would more express, limited stop (one or 2 stops a village, strategically stopping in town centres) buses be a better solution to fund as opposed to finding an 80s DMU and kitting out a heritage line to National Rail specifications?

 

[CMS1]

undermining the ability to recoup fixed costs (e.g. locomotive "10 year" overhauls) by reducing the number of days on which heritage trains could run.

It's the profitability of the heritage railway overall that matters. If the total net income of the heritage railway is higher, there are more funds for overhauls (even if less of the funds came from running the locos themselves).

I also doubt that DfT would be willing to pay a premium for track access

Not sure it would be at a premium, track access charges are not low!

 

[35B]

It's the profitability of the heritage railway overall that matters. If the total net income of the heritage railway is higher, there are more funds for overhauls (even if less of the funds came from running the locos themselves).


Not sure it would be at a premium, track access charges are not low!

Not entirely true - the ecosystems around such railways are complicated, and depending on how they are structured, something that appears to benefit the railway may in practice not do so because it impacts other parts of the overall ecosystem. As for track access, I've done enough negotiations with government bodies to know that they are VERY focused on direct costs and totally disinclined to consider peripheral costs like lost profit.

 

[xotGD]

would ELR and its visitors actually miss this bit?

My wife has stated that if we visit the ELR again together it is on condition that we avoid the Bury to Heywood section!

 

[Falcon1200]

TfGM are seriously considering a tram-train service from Rochdale to Bury, using the track of the existing heritage East Lancashire Railway west of Heywood.

Considering for a while IIRC, but is there any actual concrete progress?

I agree that it is a pity that certain heritage lines did not survive as part of the national network, Swanage and Minehead being two examples, but they did not, and we cannot change history. With any proposal such as those mentioned above I always think immediately, who will staff the signalboxes, for hugely longer hours than now? There are surely good reasons why, in the 70 odd years of preserved railways, no line anywhere has ever operated a main line style service.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Considering for a while IIRC, but is there any actual concrete progress?

I agree that it is a pity that certain heritage lines did not survive as part of the national network, Swanage and Minehead being two examples, but they did not, and we cannot change history. With any proposal such as those mentioned above I always think immediately, who will staff the signalboxes, for hugely longer hours than now? There are surely good reasons why, in the 70 odd years of preserved railways, no line anywhere has ever operated a main line style service.

To some extent, we're looping round to a version of the original question:

If a heritage railway went under, and if it served somewhere large enough, could we realistically see National Rail taking it back into the national system? The precedent of Okehampton is noted...