Buying a ticket at first opportunity...

[Thomas31]

Yesterday I had to travel from West Ruislip to Birmingham, although it’s a Tube station there is a Chiltern ticket machine at platform level which I decided to use because I had a problem using my chosen train app. However, some scrote decided to spit on the touch screen, so instead of using it I decided to buy a ticket from the guard, but I didn’t see one until past Banbury. He then refused to sell me a ticket saying I should’ve used the ticket machine wearing gloves! Anyway I eventually persuaded him to sell me a ticket, but who was in the wrong?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Given the location of the TVM at West Ruislip (namely adjacent to the Londonbound platform), I'd suggest there was no "opportunity to buy" before boarding.

If you'd entered via the Ticket Hall, you'd have to go over the footbridge, down the stairs to Platform 4, walk around half way down the platform to the TVM, buy the ticket, walk back along the platform, up the stairs, over the bridge and then down the stairs to Platform 3.

In the time it takes to do all that you could easily have missed your train.

Having said that, given a change of trains (generally at High Wycombe) is needed en route, it could be argued that you should have bought a ticket whilst waiting for the connection...assuming you had time to do so.

 

[Thomas31]

Given the location of the TVM at West Ruislip (namely adjacent to the Londonbound platform), I'd suggest there was no "opportunity to buy" before boarding.

If you'd entered via the Ticket Hall, you'd have to go over the footbridge, down the stairs to Platform 4, walk around half way down the platform to the TVM, buy the ticket, walk back along the platform, up the stairs, over the bridge and then down the stairs to Platform 3.

In the time it takes to do all that you could easily have missed your train.

Having said that, given a change of trains (generally at High Wycombe) is needed en route, it could be argued that you should have bought a ticket whilst waiting for the connection...assuming you had time to do so.

I had to make two changes, Gerrards Cross and Princes Risborough, their ticket offices weren’t open.

 

[_toommm_]

Given the location of the TVM at West Ruislip (namely adjacent to the Londonbound platform), I'd suggest there was no "opportunity to buy" before boarding.

If you'd entered via the Ticket Hall, you'd have to go over the footbridge, down the stairs to Platform 4, walk around half way down the platform to the TVM, buy the ticket, walk back along the platform, up the stairs, over the bridge and then down the stairs to Platform 3.

In the time it takes to do all that you could easily have missed your train.

Having said that, given a change of trains (generally at High Wycombe) is needed en route, it could be argued that you should have bought a ticket whilst waiting for the connection...assuming you had time to do so.

Locations of TVMs is a difficult one. This has been argued before with Northern, whom at some stations place TVMs on one platform only, and in the most extreme examples, force a near five-minute walk to the other platform due to the layout of the station and its surroundings. Sadly, this reasoning hasn't stood well from what I remember.

Of course, when changing trains, if the OP doesn't have time to buy a ticket (so long as they meet the minimum connection times) then they're not required to delay their journey further to buy their ticket at the interchange; as covered by the NRCoT.

As for the presiding issue of whether the OP should or should not have used the TVM... I guess technically there was an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding, as the machine physically worked (even if it was covered in bodily fluids). One would think discretion would be shown though in current times. May I suggest if it happens again to take a picture of the TVM (this is no guarantee it will work though of course).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yesterday I had to travel from West Ruislip to Birmingham, although it’s a Tube station there is a Chiltern ticket machine at platform level which I decided to use because I had a problem using my chosen train app. However, some scrote decided to spit on the touch screen, so instead of using it I decided to buy a ticket from the guard, but I didn’t see one until past Banbury. He then refused to sell me a ticket saying I should’ve used the ticket machine wearing gloves! Anyway I eventually persuaded him to sell me a ticket, but who was in the wrong?

It's unsurprising you didn't see a guard until after Banbury, because 99% of Chiltern services south of there are Driver Only Operated - i.e. there's no guard scheduled to be onboard.

Unfortunately, whilst the fact that someone had spat on the TVM is disgusting and means that, in any circumstances but especially at the current time it isn't reasonable to expect you to use it, it's not quite that simple legally speaking. The reasonable and legal positions can sadly sometimes be somewhat removed from one another.

The only bit that is definitively nonsense is the suggestion that you should provide your own gloves to use the TVM - what on earth was the guard on about there?! Wallet, keys, phone, mask, gloves? I don't think so! And even if you were expected to bring gloves, it's not like there are biohazard disposal facilities at stations. So that is a non-starter unless they want the spit wiped all over their bin lids...

In terms of avoiding liability to pay the undiscounted Anytime single fare under Condition 9 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, you'd have to suggest that the TVM being covered in spit meant that:

there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order

which I think is probably a viable argument given the circumstances. (Though, how did you pass through the barriers at West Ruislip in order to use the National Rail ticket machine on the paid side?)

In terms of avoiding liability for a Penalty Fare, you'd have to make the case that

there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey

which, whilst probably intending to mean the same as what the NRCoT say, has subtly different wording - c.f. working order vs in operation. I think it's a little harder to satisfy that the TVM wasn't "in operation" just because it was covered in spit. On the other hand, an argument that

there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare

is much more likely to be successful, though it would appear that the intention is that only the appeals bodies can judge whether or not this ground of appeal is met, and not the County Court as would apply for a Penalty Fare that has fundamentally been issued in violation of the Regulations and their incumbent exceptions. That of course leaves you open to the vagaries and incompetence of the appeals bodies.

Finally, in terms of criminal liability, clearly you would lack the intention to avoid payment of the fate necessary to secure a conviction under section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Luckily, we are back to the "working order" definition for the relevant exception to the otherwise strict liability Byelaw 18:

there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

which, as discussed above, likely exempts you from liability as a spit-covered TVM is hardly in working order.

Now, even if legally speaking it's arguable you could be issued with a Penalty Fare (albeit there may be other grounds of appeal viz. defective signage), clearly from a customer service point of view Chiltern cannot possibly expect you to have used the TVM given the circumstances.

Accordingly I would raise a complaint with them, because the attitude demonstrated by the guard was utterly unacceptable. It also treats passengers who are clearly honest (who else would proactively seek out the guard, when they had no obligation to do so and knew there were no routine onboard checks in operation) as dishonest, which isn't on.

Don't expect to get anything remotely resembling a reasonable response, but - you miss all the shots you don't take!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Given the location of the TVM at West Ruislip (namely adjacent to the Londonbound platform), I'd suggest there was no "opportunity to buy" before boarding.

If you'd entered via the Ticket Hall, you'd have to go over the footbridge, down the stairs to Platform 4, walk around half way down the platform to the TVM, buy the ticket, walk back along the platform, up the stairs, over the bridge and then down the stairs to Platform 3.

In the time it takes to do all that you could easily have missed your train.

Having said that, given a change of trains (generally at High Wycombe) is needed en route, it could be argued that you should have bought a ticket whilst waiting for the connection...assuming you had time to do so.

Whilst it's clearly unreasonable to penalise a passenger for failing to do all that, it's not necessarily the case that it exempts them from liability for any potential consequences, if the TOC is being hard-line (as many are).

We have heard of cases of people being issued with Penalty Fares or being charged the undiscounted Anytime single fare where the TVM is located the other side of level crossing barriers that were shut 5 or 10 minutes before the train arrived at the station. This kind of stuff is hardly surprising for the British rail industry.

 

[Thomas31]

It's unsurprising you didn't see a guard until after Banbury, because 99% of Chiltern services south of there are Driver Only Operated - i.e. there's no guard scheduled to be onboard.

Unfortunately, whilst the fact that someone had spat on the TVM is disgusting and means that, in any circumstances but especially at the current time it isn't reasonable to expect you to use it, it's not quite that simple legally speaking. The reasonable and legal positions can sadly sometimes be somewhat removed from one another.

The only bit that is definitively nonsense is the suggestion that you should provide your own gloves to use the TVM - what on earth was the guard on about there?! Wallet, keys, phone, mask, gloves? I don't think so! And even if you were expected to bring gloves, it's not like there are biohazard disposal facilities at stations. So that is a non-starter unless they want the spit wiped all over their bin lids...

In terms of avoiding liability to pay the undiscounted Anytime single fare under Condition 9 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, you'd have to suggest that the TVM being covered in spit meant that:

which I think is probably a viable argument given the circumstances. (Though, how did you pass through the barriers at West Ruislip in order to use the National Rail ticket machine on the paid side?)

In terms of avoiding liability for a Penalty Fare, you'd have to make the case that

which, whilst probably intending to mean the same as what the NRCoT say, has subtly different wording - c.f. working order vs in operation. I think it's a little harder to satisfy that the TVM wasn't "in operation" just because it was covered in spit. On the other hand, an argument that

is much more likely to be successful, though it would appear that the intention is that only the appeals bodies can judge whether or not this ground of appeal is met, and not the County Court as would apply for a Penalty Fare that has fundamentally been issued in violation of the Regulations and their incumbent exceptions. That of course leaves you open to the vagaries and incompetence of the appeals bodies.

Finally, in terms of criminal liability, clearly you would lack the intention to avoid payment of the fate necessary to secure a conviction under section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Luckily, we are back to the "working order" definition for the relevant exception to the otherwise strict liability Byelaw 18:

which, as discussed above, likely exempts you from liability as a spit-covered TVM is hardly in working order.

Now, even if legally speaking it's arguable you could be issued with a Penalty Fare (albeit there may be other grounds of appeal viz. defective signage), clearly from a customer service point of view Chiltern cannot possibly expect you to have used the TVM given the circumstances.

Accordingly I would raise a complaint with them, because the attitude demonstrated by the guard was utterly unacceptable. It also treats passengers who are clearly honest (who else would proactively seek out the guard, when they had no obligation to do so and knew there were no routine onboard checks in operation) as dishonest, which isn't on.

Don't expect to get anything remotely resembling a reasonable response, but - you miss all the shots you don't take!

There’s a separate entrance leading to the car park from the London bound platform that is ungated

 

[Starmill]

I would usually use a help point, or call customer services, in this situation. You don't have to but it may make life easier. Same goes if the ticket machine cannot sell the ticket you need.