Buying a ticket after train has departed while holding another valid ticket

[XmaX]

So, as we all know, buying an e-ticket after boarding or after departure of the train is generally a big no-no (assuming station has appropriate ticket-selling facilities).

But, imagine this scenario:

• passenger holds an unused ticket, which would be valid on the journey they're trying to make
• the passenger does not want to use this ticket for this particular journey for whatever reason (and there are plenty potential reasons)
• the passenger boards the train, and buys a new ticket for their journey, and as they're doing it, they're approached by a guard/RPI.

The passenger clearly bought a ticket after boarding the train, but they also held a ticket that would be valid on this journey. Could the guard/RPI 'insist' the passenger uses the original ticket they held (and thus, potentially invalidating it for future travel)? Or would the passenger be treated as if they didn't have a ticket at all?

This is purely theoretical, but I'm sure I was in a situation in the past where I held a valid ticket, but wanted to buy a new one (though I've never done so from the train).

 

[Mainline421]

From a purely theoretical point of view the ticket is used at the point you boarded the train, scanning makes no difference to this either way. Even in theory the only other position you could take would be that you committed an offense by boarding without a ticket, and that the ticket possessed for future travel is irrelevant to this.

 

[Benjwri]

When the train departed the original ticket effectively became used from the departure station to the next stop. Any ticket the passenger bought would be valid from that next stop, so depending on the terms of the original ticket they could continue the journey on that ticket, from the station after they bought the new ticket, the same as if you were to end the journey short and pick it up later.

As mentioned above, the original ticket is definitively used when the train departs, and cannot be used on the same section again, nor can a full refund be sought (Short of disruption)

 

[eoff]

To me, a non expert, these are confusing responses, albeit the situation is a bit theoretical.

To me it seems you only use a ticket when you present it to a gate/barrier or a member of staff as proof of a right to make a journey, so you make that active choice.
After all you could have more than one valid ticket, they don't become used in your pocket and can still be used in the future should you claim you have no tickets and take the consequences.

 

[Jan Mayen]

They don't seem confusing to me. Just buy the new ticket BEFORE boarding the train, and everything is fine.

 

[BG2024]

A ticket that has been "used" to legally board the train can't then be redefined as "unused" just because nobody's scanned it yet.

 

[yorkie]

If the second ticket was bought after the train departed, then the first ticket has to be deemed to be used (at least to the next stop).

 

[Benjwri]

To me, a non expert, these are confusing responses, albeit the situation is a bit theoretical.

To me it seems you only use a ticket when you present it to a gate/barrier or a member of staff as proof of a right to make a journey, so you make that active choice.
After all you could have more than one valid ticket, they don't become used in your pocket and can still be used in the future should you claim you have no tickets and take the consequences.

A ticket becomes used when you get on a train and use it for travel. If a member of staff never sees it, it is still used.

In theory you should choose the ticket before you travel that’s being used. Obviously there is a degree of trust, but that is reflected in the severe penalty if you are caught.

 

[eoff]

Feel free to tell me which of n tickets I might hold get 'used' when I commence a journey.

Again, I realise this is all a bit theoretical but I didn't introduce the scenario that raised this concept of 'use'.

 

[skyhigh]

To me it seems you only use a ticket when you present it to a gate/barrier or a member of staff as proof of a right to make a journey, so you make that active choice.

So by that logic, if there's no barriers at your start and end station and your ticket isn't checked on the train, you've not used your ticket even though you've made the journey?

 

[eoff]

So by that logic, if there's no barriers at your start and end station and your ticket isn't checked on the train, you've not used your ticket even though you've made the journey?

In practice yes for the purpose of thinking about the scenario here. But when the railway allows that you should absolutely treat it as used for your journey and throw it away. I'm not remotely suggesting otherwise.
(Edit) And of course you should have identified the ticket being used before travel in any case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2025 ==

Perhaps I should explain the real example that led me to post in this thread.

A very long time ago I used to make an intercity journey 3 days per week. I would generally hold 3 return tickets at one time (kept for expenses).
I would choose one of the tickets to use for a journey at the point I needed them, most likely the top pair in a wallet.
I don't remember if I could ever complete the journeys without having to present a ticket (I think very unlikely) but lets assume that was possible.

This is why I said a ticket only gets used when an active choice is made. There is no magic that somehow makes one of those tickets be the one used for a journey and if I was mad I could have said I had no tickets if I had boarded a train without having presented the ticket.

 

[Benjwri]

This is why I said a ticket only gets used when an active choice is made. There is no magic that somehow makes one of those tickets be the one used for a journey and if I was mad I could have said I had no tickets if I had boarded a train without having presented the ticket.

Yes this is true, but the point is that one of those three is used. For all practical purposes if all three are valid it does not matter which is used.

However in the original question, if you buy a ticket on the train after departure it is not valid until the next stop on the train (Assuming break of journey is allowed). Therefore it is still one of those 3 original tickets that you must regard as used, otherwise you have traveled without a valid ticket until the first stop. Regardless of if it is scanned or not, that is still fare evasion.

 

[Lewisham2221]

So, as we all know, buying an e-ticket after boarding or after departure of the train is generally a big no-no (assuming station has appropriate ticket-selling facilities).

But, imagine this scenario:

• passenger holds an unused ticket, which would be valid on the journey they're trying to make
• the passenger does not want to use this ticket for this particular journey for whatever reason (and there are plenty potential reasons)
• the passenger boards the train, and buys a new ticket for their journey, and as they're doing it, they're approached by a guard/RPI.

The passenger clearly bought a ticket after boarding the train, but they also held a ticket that would be valid on this journey. Could the guard/RPI 'insist' the passenger uses the original ticket they held (and thus, potentially invalidating it for future travel)? Or would the passenger be treated as if they didn't have a ticket at all?

This is purely theoretical, but I'm sure I was in a situation in the past where I held a valid ticket, but wanted to buy a new one (though I've never done so from the train).

Let's say you are travelling from Tamworth to Stafford. You hold a ticket that would cover the journey between Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley (for arguments sake, we'll say it's a ticket from Atherstone to Four Oaks). You board the train and, once onboard and travelling between Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley you purchase a Tamworth to Stafford e-ticket. An RPI then approaches you and notices that your ticket was purchased after departure from Tamworth and begins to deal with you for boarding the train without a valid ticket. In order to be not guilty of boarding without a valid ticket, you must present your Atherstone to Four Oaks ticket. In this instance, your Tamworth to Stafford ticket would be valid to cover the remainder of your journey from Lichfield Trent Valley to Stafford, but your Atherstone to Four Oaks ticket would also become used (at least between Atherstone and Lichfield Trent Valley, subject to any break of journey entitlement that may mean it remained valid for a journey between Lichfield Trent Valley and Four Oaks). A ticket cannot simultaneously cover you against the offence of boarding a train without holding a valid ticket whilst also remaining unused.