Buxton to Matlock - The missing link

[Llandudno]

There have been numerous posts on here and of course in the media about the reopening of the line between Buxton and Matlock.

Personally, I would love to see the line reopen and can’t see it ever happening.

Here are some observations regarding public transport options in the area:

High Peak buses provide an hourly commercial service approx 7am-6pm on Monday to Saturdays between Buxton and Derby.
There is no evening service between Buxton and Matlock and a handful of buses on Sundays

Between Matlock and Derby the hourly buses run at almost exactly the same times as the hourly train service, give or take two minutes in both directions!
This means that if travelling by bus to Matlock to catch the train, you have an hour wait for the train
The northbound connection at Matlock is better with 10-15 minutes wait for the bus to Buxton

At the Buxton end the train arrives Buxton at xx05 and the bus towards Matlock departs at xx37
Northbound the bus arrives Buxton at xx37 and the train to Manchester departs at xx58

It’s hardly surprising that very few passengers use public transport to travel between Manchester/Stockport - Bakewell - Matlock, and obviously to travel to Derby you would need to travel via Sheffield or Stoke!

No wonder there are so many cars on the road on the A6, many no doubt filling the car parks and going for a ‘green walk/cycle’ on the Monsal Trail, which, is of course, the track bed of the Buxton to Matlock railway!

Surely Derbyshire County Council/Peak Park Planning Board could bash a few heads together to improve connectivity, after all the biggest competitor to the train or bus is the private car and not different transport modes?

 

[S&CLER]

There have been numerous posts on here and of course in the media about the reopening of the line between Buxton and Matlock.

Personally, I would love to see the line reopen and can’t see it ever happening.

Here are some observations regarding public transport options in the area:

High Peak buses provide an hourly commercial service approx 7am-6pm on Monday to Saturdays between Buxton and Derby.
There is no evening service between Buxton and Matlock and a handful of buses on Sundays

Between Matlock and Derby the hourly buses run at almost exactly the same times as the hourly train service, give or take two minutes in both directions!
This means that if travelling by bus to Matlock to catch the train, you have an hour wait for the train
The northbound connection at Matlock is better with 10-15 minutes wait for the bus to Buxton

At the Buxton end the train arrives Buxton at xx05 and the bus towards Matlock departs at xx37
Northbound the bus arrives Buxton at xx37 and the train to Manchester departs at xx58

It’s hardly surprising that very few passengers use public transport to travel between Manchester/Stockport - Bakewell - Matlock, and obviously to travel to Derby you would need to travel via Sheffield or Stoke!

No wonder there are so many cars on the road on the A6, many no doubt filling the car parks and going for a ‘green walk/cycle’ on the Monsal Trail, which, is of course, the track bed of the Buxton to Matlock railway!

Surely Derbyshire County Council/Peak Park Planning Board could bash a few heads together to improve connectivity, after all the biggest competitor to the train or bus is the private car and not different transport modes?

Buses from Matlock used to just fail by minutes to make a good connection with trains at Buxton even though they stop fairly near the station. This was a frequent nuisance for me when coming back from a day's walking, when the Buxton branch still had an hourly frequency. I usually filled in the time shopping in the Waitrose near Buxton station. I haven't been that way since before the lockdown. Buxton station can be a cold place to wait too.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The missing link is a national transport policy - buses connecting with trains etc

 

[tetudo boy]

I would like to see it open as an Intercity line. You could shove a few trains from the North-west to the Midland mainline in, but I can't see it as a local line.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I would like to see it open as an Intercity line. You could shove a few trains from the North-west to the Midland mainline in, but I can't see it as a local line.

It could never be an 'inter-city' line via Buxton. (Through 'Midland' services between Derby and Manchester ran via Chinley.) The L&NWR and Midland stations were both termini, side-by-side, in Buxton. A bit of a clue to the historic nature of the services there. With having to fit with stopping services between Derby and Matlock, and Buxton and Manchester, it would be excruciatingly slow as a through service.

The local services both 'ends' obviously have to fit with other services Derby-Ambergate and Hazel Grove-Stockport-Manchester and can hardly be flexed very much to optimise local bus connections in between.

 

[D365]

I would like to see it open as an Intercity line. You could shove a few trains from the North-west to the Midland mainline in, but I can't see it as a local line.

Huh? What cities would you be trying to connect.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Huh? What cities would you be trying to connect.

Possibly Manchester and Derby.

 

[yorksrob]

It could never be an 'inter-city' line via Buxton. (Through 'Midland' services between Derby and Manchester ran via Chinley.) The L&NWR and Midland stations were both termini, side-by-side, in Buxton. A bit of a clue to the historic nature of the services there. With having to fit with stopping services between Derby and Matlock, and Buxton and Manchester, it would be excruciatingly slow as a through service.

The local services both 'ends' obviously have to fit with other services Derby-Ambergate and Hazel Grove-Stockport-Manchester and can hardly be flexed very much to optimise local bus connections in between.

So no different from the Hope valley, in the respect of fitting in slow and fast seervices then. Admittedly those fasts aren't as quick as InterCity, but I wouldn't call them "excrutiatingly" slow either.

Huh? What cities would you be trying to connect.

Derby, Leicester, Loughborough - anywhere on the MML really.

 

[tbtc]

Didn't we discuss it just a week or two ago on a thread about bikes?

There's not much more to say... it's a magical solution for several problems, whereby people imagine running "fast" London - Manchester services just like in the good old days but also an extension of the existing stopper (which takes over half an hour to do the seventeen miles from Derby to Matlock, so not particularly fast) as well as large numbers of freight services (heavy - and therefore slow - quarry trains) all on a line that's double track at best and may have to be single track in areas to accommodate the long established Monsall Trail...

...all seems marginally overcomplicated and expensive when we could just encourage the bus company to retime their service slightly to connect with the trains at Matlock? Or get on with building a couple of loops around Grindleford/ Bamford? Or is it a yet another case of "we'd rather spend hundreds of millions of pounds rather than make a minor tweak"?

So no different from the Hope valley, in the respect of fitting in slow and fast seervices then. Admittedly those fasts aren't as quick as InterCity, but I wouldn't call them "excrutiatingly" slow either

Fair enough, you don't think that a train taking seventy five minutes to get between Sheffield and Manchester is particularly slow - I think that the termini stations are only thirty two miles apart and taking seventy five minutes to get between the two doesn't seem a particularly fast way of travelling, but that's just me

 

[yorksrob]

Didn't we discuss it just a week or two ago on a thread about bikes?

There's not much more to say... it's a magical solution for several problems, whereby people imagine running "fast" London - Manchester services just like in the good old days but also an extension of the existing stopper (which takes over half an hour to do the seventeen miles from Derby to Matlock, so not particularly fast) as well as large numbers of freight services (heavy - and therefore slow - quarry trains) all on a line that's double track at best and may have to be single track in areas to accommodate the long established Monsall Trail...

...all seems marginally overcomplicated and expensive when we could just encourage the bus company to retime their service slightly to connect with the trains at Matlock? Or get on with building a couple of loops around Grindleford/ Bamford? Or is it a yet another case of "we'd rather spend hundreds of millions of pounds rather than make a minor tweak"?



Fair enough, you don't think that a train taking seventy five minutes to get between Sheffield and Manchester is particularly slow - I think that the termini stations are only thirty two miles apart and taking seventy five minutes to get between the two doesn't seem a particularly fast way of travelling, but that's just me

One must remember that the Hope Valley does divert around a rather large mountain range, which takes some time. But no, I don't find the non-stop services to be slow for the distance travelled.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

One must remember that the Hope Valley does divert around a rather large mountain range, which takes some time. But no, I don't find the non-stop services to be slow for the distance travelled.

. . . which, of course, is why a regular poster in this forum suggests a new high speed tunnel between Sheffield and Manchester.

 

[yorksrob]

. . . which, of course, is why a regular poster in this forum suggests a new high speed tunnel between Sheffield and Manchester.

Indeed.

Although from a personal point of view, I find the existing journey times perfectly adequate for Sheffield - Manchester, so it seems a lot of money to spend.

Now if there were some additional benefit, such as opening up railway flows that weren't previously possible...

 

[Ianno87]

Indeed.

Although from a personal point of view, I find the existing journey times perfectly adequate for Sheffield - Manchester, so it seems a lot of money to spend.

Now if there were some additional benefit, such as opening up railway flows that weren't previously possible...

Manchester-Derby is already possible (with a change) in typically about 1:35-1:45.

Reopened Buxton-Matlock is, at best, only going to match that.

 

[yorksrob]

Manchester-Derby is already possible (with a change) in typically about 1:35-1:45.

Reopened Buxton-Matlock is, at best, only going to match that.

Manchester-Derby is already possible (with a change) in typically about 1:35-1:45.

Reopened Buxton-Matlock is, at best, only going to match that.

True, but for a lower cost than a trans-pennine tunnel, you'd also get increased capacity and a lot of access to the Peak district, for our new, leisure orientated railway.

 

[Ianno87]

True, but for a lower cost than a trans-pennine tunnel, you'd also get increased capacity

Well, until you hit Edgeley Jns...

and a lot of access to the Peak district, for our new, leisure orientated railway.

We already have that, at Buxton, Matlock and the Hope Valley stations.

They are popular with walkers, but not massive, all day, all year round use (that doth butter a businesd case) in the grand scheme of things.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, until you hit Edgeley Jns...



We already have that, at Buxton, Matlock and the Hope Valley stations.

They are popular with walkers, but not massive, all day, all year round use (that doth butter a businesd case) in the grand scheme of things.

You mean tbe stations served by the Hope Valley stopper, which is two hourly because there isn't enough capacity ?

 

[Ianno87]

You mean tbe stations served by the Hope Valley stopper, which is two hourly because there isn't enough capacity ?

Yes. Which is well patronised regardless of its frequency. (Which should be sorted once Dore etc is done)

 

[Acfb]

My opinion is pretty similar to Llandudno's. As someone who spends a lot of time in the High Peak area I agree that public transport on the Buxton - Bakewell - Matlock corridor is poor at least with the transpeak cuts in the evenings and I am not opposed to a more simple single track extension from Matlock to Bakewell (or at least to a 'Bakewell Parkway' station beside the Haddon Hall carpark on a new alignment).

If the aim is to restimulate public transport in the area/reverse bus cuts/create new bus feeder links, that would be a much more sensible focus.

I do not however think this a priority compared to the need for Hazel Grove to Buxton electrification/faster journey times to Stockport/Manchester which would do a lot more for folk in Buxton, Whaley Bridge etc

Long term HS2 will arguably provide fast links from Manchester to the East Midlands as people will be able to travel from Manchester to Toton in an hour via Birmingham Interchange.

 

[Llandudno]

I think we need to be realistic, it is highly unlikely that there will be any extension of Matlock branch northwards.

The crux of my original post is the dismal bus service between Buxton and Matlock:
No attempt at connecting bus/rail at either end
No buses after 6pm
No through ticketing, apart from Wayfarer rover tickets (mind you the TransPeak driver on Thursday didn’t want to let me use one)

This is a major tourist area, Peak District is UKs most visited National Park and all we seem to do is make public transport inconvenient to use and build more car parks!

 

[tbtc]

You mean tbe stations served by the Hope Valley stopper, which is two hourly because there isn't enough capacity ?

The one that Northern generally allocate just a single unit to, yes (albeit more like an "hourly with gaps" than "bi-hourly with extras" prior to Covid).

But if there's not enough capacity to accommodate more services then where would the paths come from for whizzy fast London - Derby - Manchester services?

The plans to improve Hope Valley capacity require loops at Grindleford etc plus re-doubling at Dore - if we can't do these short improvements then why are we wasting crayons on speculative ideas about "new" lines?

Similarly, if Northern don't think it warrants doubled up DMUs then where are the units going to come from for an unnelectrified line south of Buxton?

If the aim is to restimulate public transport in the area/reverse bus cuts/create new bus feeder links, that would be a much more sensible focus.

If bus/rail connections are so important then it's surely not beyond Derbyshire CC's powers to encourage some kind of improvement in the timings - modest improvements that could make a bigger difference.

I do not however think this a priority compared to the need for Hazel Grove to Buxton electrification/faster journey times to Stockport/Manchester which would do a lot more for folk in Buxton, Whaley Bridge etc

Electrification to Buxton seems a good idea - fast accelerating EMUs could deal with the climb better, you could increase capacity by extending services that currently terminate at Hazel Grove - it's a shame we don't focus on the smaller/simpler projects (instead of attempting some Victorian renaissance of services from St Pancras to Manchester through Bakewell)

I think we need to be realistic, it is highly unlikely that there will be any extension of Matlock branch northwards.

The crux of my original post is the dismal bus service between Buxton and Matlock:
No attempt at connecting bus/rail at either end
No buses after 6pm
No through ticketing, apart from Wayfarer rover tickets (mind you the TransPeak driver on Thursday didn’t want to let me use one)

This is a major tourist area, Peak District is UKs most visited National Park and all we seem to do is make public transport inconvenient to use and build more car parks!

We keep coming back to "problems" like this on the Forum - if there's no demand to justify an evening bus service (say, a dozen people to make a minibus commercially attractive), and the Council aren't interested in funding a tendered service (or lack the funds to pay for a tendered service) then heavy rail seems a fairly expensive "solution".

Realistically, places like Bakewell are never going to have much of a night life - but if the Council don't think subsidising an evening bus is important enough then that tells a story.

The Peak District is a well visited place - I was there myself earlier today - but look at where the visitors come from and where they are visiting.

For example, there's a half hourly bus from Sheffield to Bakewell and Chatsworth (which TM Travel generally put double deckers on) - much more demand than buses from Bakewell to Manchester/ Derby...

...Stagecoach have their "Gold" double deckers running hourly from Sheffield/ Chesterfield to Matlock....

...but if people are only interested in using old rail alignments then they'll try to work backwards to come up with an answer that they already want.

A lot of "visitors" to the Peak District are doing so for the scenic ride in the car/ on the bike (rather than going to a specific place) or going to climb hill or visit scenic places like Stanedge or Derwent Dam - heavy rail isn't going to make much difference to those markets. It's also very seasonal (which heavy rail isn't always flexible enough to deal with)

Let heavy rail focus on the markets its better at, the predictable bulk flows, the year round markets.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In addition to @tbtc's comments regarding the suitability of heavy-rail as a solution to the actual problems I would add that the Peak Park Planning Board are very much in the Prince Charles camp as regards infrastructure development ie "we don't like it, we don't want it, go away and leave us alone". The best we can hope for is improved bus services with Matlock-Buxton an ideal "showroom" for truly eco-friendly vehicles. A brief trip to Harrogate last week reminded me just what is already possible: a high quality Leeds-Harrogate-Ripon service with leather seats, automatic stop announcements, on board wi-fi, usb ports, real-time roadside information displays and various cashless ticketing options, as well as a couple of fully electric local services with automatic vehicle charging at the bus station.

If Matlock-Buxton was ever to re-open to rail I would be absolutely delighted but realistically it will only ever be a pipe dream and it really would be better to focus rail revival efforts elsewhere.

 

[pint]

Part of the old line is a popular cycle route with some strong support, I've yet to ride it although hopefuly one day soon i will be able to drive up there with my bike in my car for the ride

 

[Llandudno]

Part of the old line is a popular cycle route with some strong support, I've yet to ride it although hopefuly one day soon i will be able to drive up there with my bike in my car for the ride

Therein lies the problem, you have to drive into the National Park in order to cycle in the fresh air and admire the scenery!

Aren’t there some buses in scenic areas that take cycles?
Perhaps Matlock-Buxton may be a good place to trial one in the Peak District connecting with trains of course, at Matlock and Buxton.

 

[pint]

The issue with a bus is that its not cheap, and unless your using it for local travel.
I can be at the Monsal trail in Bakewell in just under an hour by car - go by bus and that goes upto 3 hours and then there's the issue that the buses aren't bike friendly especially if you are taking more than one person/one bike.
If you looking at improving public transport for such things, then you would be looking at a park and ride type service that could drop passengers off at one location ( with or without bikes) and pick up from another location.

Maybe a drop and ride rail service could be possible where the train stops along the way and drops passengers off at the any point along the track side??

 

[MarkyT]

. A brief trip to Harrogate last week reminded me just what is already possible: a high quality Leeds-Harrogate-Ripon service with leather seats, automatic stop announcements, on board wi-fi, usb ports, real-time roadside information displays and various cashless ticketing options, as well as a couple of fully electric local services with automatic vehicle charging at the bus station.

All excellent apart from leather seats, which immediately puts me off. I can't wear leather watch straps as there's a good chance, especially in hot weather, of the material causing skin irritation that can take ages to clear up. While it might be easy to clean, I don't see why it has become such a popular 'luxury' selling point. The surface can become excruciatingly hot under direct sunlight, you can slide off it when asleep, etc...

 

[DM352]

It would be great to even have it reopened even as a single track (aligned to one side to permit future dual track) with longer trains like the class 769 which could fit bikes compared to a 153.

Car travel to the Peak District has got slower in the last 30 years from the West Midlands. More vehicles and many reduced speed limits like on the A6 only to arrive with high parking fees which I know benefit the community. Buses get delayed on these roads.

I think even an extension from Matlock to Bakewell would work as a phase 1. phase 2 could be an ambitious Bakewell to Millers Dale where trains could split to Manchester/Buxton but know that would upset users of the Monsall Trail.

Know there could be impact to Peak Rail as a network rail route - I used to volunteer there years ago. I could see a solution for PR like at Eridge with separate tracks.

 

[Whistler40145]

I very much doubt that the line would reopen to traffic

The Millers Dale to Monsal Head section is very well used by cyclists and walkers

I did witness on a forum walk a few years ago that Severn Trent Water was using part of the route with works in progress

 

[Shred Metal]

The Millers Dale to Monsal Head section is very well used by cyclists and walkers

Mostly because it's the only flat way through.

The same would apply to the Hope Valley route if that had been closed for decades.

 

[HST43257]

I’d like to see the Matlock - Bakewell section rebuilt, as I believe there’s commuter benefits here. A 2tph service would also be good. There’d also be an off-peak flow as well, with an advertised day out getting the train from Newark/Derby/Nottingham (and the area) to Bakewell, from where there can be many walking/cycling routes, either in a loop or to Buxton station. New stations would be added at Darley Dale, Rowsley (maybe) and Bakewell, with new houses being built on the other side of the station at Bakewell as well as at other locations en route. I was also looking at the idea of a request stop at Haddon Hall to get more leisure travellers in the area by rail. Complete overhead electrification would be a nice touch as well if possible.

 

[Aictos]

Just a simple question for those who have better knowledge of the services then me but if it was feasible to reinstate the line, could we instead recast the timetable for the stopping services at both ends of the line and instead introduce a basic though service so basically have the existing services join together and run though to the terminus at Derby and Manchester as that would be more useful then some random IC service from A to B that will never happen.

Kind of how the Peterborough to Kings Cross and London Bridge to Horsham services were combined to offer vastly improved journey opportunities.