Buses refusing to re-start

[Teapot42]

Twice in the last week my wife has been made late for work because the bus she was waiting for failed to start. It seems our local operator has a policy, presumably driven by ESG, that if a bus needs to wait time at a stop then the driver should turn the engine off.

Oddly, both times the bus was able to be re-started shortly after the next one turned up half an hour later.

Has anyone else had experience of companies with this policy and whether it has resulted in similar delays and cancellations? There must be a point where the ESG credits are outweighed by the losses in passengers changing to other modes and the costs of recovering and repairing the bus.

I also wonder if this is likely to get worse once we are further in to winter and the temperatures drop.

 

[sharpley]

Switching buses engines off at bus stops is common surely? Plus many buses have stop start technology as well. Sounds like the bus had a fault in your wifes situation.

 

[Teapot42]

Switching buses engines off at bus stops is common surely? Plus many buses have stop start technology as well. Sounds like the bus had a fault in your wifes situation.

I've only come across it here where the driver is expecting to be at the stop for a couple of minutes or more. If they are just dropping off or picking up then they'll leave it running.

These buses don't have stop-start, a 59 plate E400 and a 62 plate E200. I'm not sure if our newer E400MMCs have it - I've only ridden them twice and can't recall. Other than the older hybrids we have nothing I've been on or seen that has stop start, the driver has to do it manually.

 

[sharpley]

I've only come across it here where the driver is expecting to be at the stop for a couple of minutes or more. If they are just dropping off or picking up then they'll leave it running.

These buses don't have stop-start, a 59 plate E400 and a 62 plate E200. I'm not sure if our newer E400MMCs have it - I've only ridden them twice and can't recall. Other than the older hybrids we have nothing I've been on or seen that has stop start, the driver has to do it manually.

The buses that I use mainly (Arriva Midlands in Leicestershire) have stop start, plus the route I normally use has a few timing points along the route with 5 minute waits. Engines normally off for any waiting time and no issues I can recall with the engines not restarting. Had an issue once where the driver couldn't get it into gear after restarting the engine though but I guess that's a different issue. Stop start always seems reliable in my experience.

 

[N1]

I've only come across it here where the driver is expecting to be at the stop for a couple of minutes or more. If they are just dropping off or picking up then they'll leave it running.

These buses don't have stop-start, a 59 plate E400 and a 62 plate E200. I'm not sure if our newer E400MMCs have it - I've only ridden them twice and can't recall. Other than the older hybrids we have nothing I've been on or seen that has stop start, the driver has to do it manually.

If the driver expects to be stopped for a couple of minutes or more, then leaving the engine running would be an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988.

 

[Teapot42]

If the driver expects to be stopped for a couple of minutes or more, then leaving the engine running would be an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988.

Which leads to another discussion on why certain services are so loosely timed that they always end up sitting at stops for as much as 5 minutes. As an aside, is there a difference between a bus stop and a bus stand in terms of waiting?

 

[Spsf3232]

Going back about 10 years it was common to take a vehicle out in service and the instruction was "Don't turn it off!" So first thing we would do when we have a chance is turn it off!

 

[N1]

Which leads to another discussion on why certain services are so loosely timed that they always end up sitting at stops for as much as 5 minutes. As an aside, is there a difference between a bus stop and a bus stand in terms of waiting?

Bus Stop means the bus can only stop for a maximum of 2 minutes, Bus Stand means that it can stop to keep to the published timetable. I believe local authorities can vary this with specific Traffic Regulation Orders, for example the 2 minute stopping period can be removed, usually in city centres where stops are heavily used.

 

[Hyebone]

I'm not sure if our newer E400MMCs have it

They do.

 

[Teapot42]

Bus Stop means the bus can only stop for a maximum of 2 minutes, Bus Stand means that it can stop to keep to the published timetable. I believe local authorities can vary this with specific Traffic Regulation Orders, for example the 2 minute stopping period can be removed, usually in city centres where stops are heavily used.

Thanks, that makes sense. Although it does make me wonder why Stagecoach timetable a 10 minute wait at a bus stop on one of our evening services. Maybe it is one where there is a specific TRO, or maybe no-one considered this when setting the timetable!

 

[greenline712]

Back in the day (and I'm referring to around 1978), the offence was leaving a bus unattended with the engine running on a public road . . . if the driver remained in the seat, then the engine could remain running. There's often a @greenline712 anecdote available, and here it is . . . . .

I was the conductor on board a RCL (Routemaster Coach Long) on Route 414 heading towards Horsham. The driver needed a comfort stop, opposite Dorking Bus Garage, but couldn't turn the bus engine off (this was done by pulling a cord that cut the fuel supply off). He went into the garage, and a couple of minutes later a Police Constable on a walking beat walked up, saw the cab was empty and the engine running, and asked me where the driver was. I said he'd just popped into the Garage, but didn't know why.
Apparently the driver was returning from his pee, saw the copper and went back into the garage to find the engineers to report that the engine couldn't be turned off!
The PC saw the driver returning, walked up to him, pulling out his notebook, and then the engineer arrived with a hammer to hit the relevant part !!

No case to answer, M'Lud !!

@NIT100 . . . can you quote the source for the 2 minute rule, please? My understanding is that buses may wait at bus stops as necessary, although a TRC may set a limit on the waiting time at specific stops.

 

[N1]

@NIT100 . . . can you quote the source for the 2 minute rule, please? My understanding is that buses may wait at bus stops as necessary, although a TRC may set a limit on the waiting time at specific stops.

In Schedule 19 Part 1 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

Exceptions in favour of buses
3. Nothing in paragraph 2 applies to the driver of a bus being used in the provision of a local service who causes the bus to stop within the clearway for so long as may be necessary—

(a)to maintain the published timetable for the service (provided, in the case of a bus stop clearway, the bus is not stopped within the clearway for a period exceeding two minutes);

I think really it is highway authorities not really applying the right signage. Most bus stops with a frequency of less than 4 bph can be a bus stand. There are probably thousands of places marked Bus Stop at the end of a route that are used as the layover point. There are just lots more pressing issues for everyone than getting bus stop markings right.

 

[Hophead]

Some stands have signs stating that engines must be turned off while waiting for the next journey. Went past an example in Ewhurst only yesterday - for Stagecoach (formerly Arriva) 53.

 

[Trackman]

The only time I have seen a bus not restart is when the external emergency engine stop has been activated (usually by kids). The driver said it could not be reset and a fitter would have to come to out to do this.

 

[Teapot42]

In Schedule 19 Part 1 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002

I think really it is highway authorities not really applying the right signage. Most bus stops with a frequency of less than 4 bph can be a bus stand. There are probably thousands of places marked Bus Stop at the end of a route that are used as the layover point. There are just lots more pressing issues for everyone than getting bus stop markings right.

To be fair, it's hard to tell in this case as there are no marking on the road at all. There is a bus stand three stops further on, but for some reason they terminate one half of the loop here and start the return leg. Up until a recent timetable change there was no delay between one ending and the next starting, however they now have at least 2 minutes now and up to 10, depending on the journey. I'm not sure it's a good place to wait, on a fairly fast road with a bend just beyond. It would make more sense to me to carry on to the stand which is out of the flow of traffic.

 

[RJ]

From running buses, a few things can cause a non-start

- Faulty ignition circuit
- Lazy starter motor solenoid
- Fuel supply issue
- Melted/collapsed fuel shut off valves
- Alternator/battery charging fault

I’ve had to get a boost pack out and bridge starter motors to get out of trouble, things which a driver absolutely must not do.

 

[Geordie driver]

Going back about 10 years it was common to take a vehicle out in service and the instruction was "Don't turn it off!" So first thing we would do when we have a chance is turn it off!

Indeed. Further away from the depot the better.

If they gave me a bus that wouldn't start away from the depot and the battery cart I would refuse to drive it.

When they produce cab heaters that work with the engine off I will switch it off when required.

We had a bus that was hard to start so it was never switched off, left to run overnight for weeks on end.