Buses/coaches parked outside drivers houses

[Simon75]

Years ago I remember seeing the oddd bus or coach outstationed at a drivers house.
Has this practice stopped and when ?

 

[Cesarcollie]

Years ago I remember seeing the oddd bus or coach outstationed at a drivers house.
Has this practice stopped and when ?

The TC expects operating centres to be off the public highway. So if the driver lives for example on a farm then still possible. But not legally supposed to happen if only option is on-road parking.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I don't know for definite when the rules changed but I'm guessing around the early 2000s.
Before then Fourway of Leeds used to have several of their vehicles parked outside drivers homes, for example one used to park just off Stanningley Road in Bramley. But then they opened a new depot in Guiseley to replace the previous one near Headingley station and the practice seemed to stop.
I recall Catley Coaches in Hull parking their coach outside the proprietors house in Willerby Road regularly, but that was back in the 1980s!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TC expects operating centres to be off the public highway. So if the driver lives for example on a farm then still possible. But not legally supposed to happen if only option is on-road parking.

Sometimes there's also other legislation, e.g. there's a blanket ban on parking buses, coaches and lorries (anything over 3500kg or 9 seats total) overnight on street in most of Manchester. My mate got a parking ticket once for parking the union minibus outside his house overnight when we were heading off early on a trip.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Back in the 1990's a Stagecoach United Counties Bristol VR would regularly be parked at the top of my Road in Daventry. The driver presumably was a local and would just get in first thing and set off round the estates on the first town service of a morning before heading to Northampton.

 

[davehsug]

I regularly get a Stantons of Stoke bus parked outside during the day. Presumably if the driver has nothing between morning and afternoon school runs.

 

[MrTurbostar170]

Won't say where but there is a road in my town where an operator parks a minibus that is used on two once daily routes, quite far away from the operators main base. It remains there overnight.

 

[Roger1973]

There's a small operator whose registered address (I assume it's the proprietor's home, as it's a residential property, and it's not on the licence as an operating centre) is not far from my mother's house in South London - it's by no means unknown to see a coach (or occasionally their Routemaster) parked close to it including fairly late of an evening.

Although I couldn't say whether it's parked there for the night, or parked on a driver break before a private hire in the early hours.

 

[stadler]

Hi Ride on the 40X in Birmingham operated like this for over twenty years right up until 2017 when he shut down. It was a one man bus operator run entirely by the owner who was also the driver and the mechanic. He did everything entirely by himself. He had two Dennis Dart SLF Alexander ALX200 buses which were always parked outside his house. He just used his driveway or the on street parking outside. He had no proper depot. His house was his depot.

 

[robertclark125]

Until 2019, there was a coach from Festival travels Inverkeithing depot, parked during the day, in between school runs, on Auchterderran Road, Lochgelly. The practice ended when the contract passed to Stagecoach.

One thing that would probably prevent such practices now, even if legislation still allowed it, would be insurance. What if the bus was damaged, or vandalised whilst parked at a house, even for a couple of hours. Would insurance have covered it?

 

[Titfield]

The TC expects operating centres to be off the public highway. So if the driver lives for example on a farm then still possible. But not legally supposed to happen if only option is on-road parking.

Operating Centres have to be authorised by the Traffic Commissioner. Proposed use of an operating centre has to be advertised and made know to "statutory" objectors. Action can be and is taken by the TC against operators who use unauthorised operating centres.

Vehicles parked should be at a place where parking of such vehicles is permitted for example a lorry / coach park, a motorway service area or of course the operating centre or indeed private land (though nb home parking of large vehicles at home may be prohibited by local authority bye law or covenant). Some industrial type estates have a blanket ban on the parking of hgvs and pcvs overnight as the roads are owned by a freeholder. The Office of the Traffic Commissioner is often made aware of breaches by aggrieved members of the general public and enforcement action taken.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2025 ==

Until 2019, there was a coach from Festival travels Inverkeithing depot, parked during the day, in between school runs, on Auchterderran Road, Lochgelly. The practice ended when the contract passed to Stagecoach.

One thing that would probably prevent such practices now, even if legislation still allowed it, would be insurance. What if the bus was damaged, or vandalised whilst parked at a house, even for a couple of hours. Would insurance have covered it?

It would depend upon the terms of the policy and the circumstances that gave rise to the claim. I would expect there to be a different outcome to vehicles parked for a couple of hours during the day compared with say overnight.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Operating Centres have to be authorised by the Traffic Commissioner. Proposed use of an operating centre has to be advertised and made know to "statutory" objectors. Action can be and is taken by the TC against operators who use unauthorised operating centres.

Vehicles parked should be at a place where parking of such vehicles is permitted for example a lorry / coach park, a motorway service area or of course the operating centre or indeed private land (though nb home parking of large vehicles at home may be prohibited by local authority bye law or covenant). Some industrial type estates have a blanket ban on the parking of hgvs and pcvs overnight as the roads are owned by a freeholder. The Office of the Traffic Commissioner is often made aware of breaches by aggrieved members of the general public and enforcement action taken.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2025 ==


It would depend upon the terms of the policy and the circumstances that gave rise to the claim. I would expect there to be a different outcome to vehicles parked for a couple of hours during the day compared with say overnight.

Not quite. The rules are different for HGV operating centres. It is these that have to be advertised and made known to statutory objectors. PSV is simply a decision by the OTC.

 

[MCR247]

A green flixbus coach used to be parked overnight on a street in Nottingham for a few years - I think the operator was based somewhere else in the country but had this driver and coach there to operate some of their Nottingham - London runs

 

[Ghostbus]

My local schools/SEND/private hire minibus operator seems to allow maybe a quarter to a half of it's drivers to park their vehicles at home overnight, while maintaining multiple operating bases industrial estates. It's hopefully only done because they're big enough that if a driver can't start their vehicle first thing, a spare can be despatched from a base pronto.

I doubt it carries a much larger insurance premium. They're not exactly a joy rider's target vehicle, there's nothing to steal inside, you're surely risking a broken leg at minimum trying to sell one on the black market, so that leaves only stealing them for parts and damage from being parked on kerbs.

It certainly does their image no good however, when it's an older vehicle. Because from 2 feet away, rust is rather noticeable. Leaving the sign up saying the name of the school etc also feels unprofessional. If the driver can't take two seconds to clear his vehicle after a duty, what else is he neglecting? Wheelchair lift checks? Fluids/tyre/light checks?

I doubt it saves much in terms of hours/wages, but could be the difference between whether a CRB checked driver chooses to work for them or drive an actual taxi on SEND work. I'm assuming you can get paid more for minibus work.

 

[father_jack]

Some interesting reading here.

Improper minibus operation punished by ban and reduction in fleet

Small vehicle parking issues form part of a ‘cynical’ placement of commercial gain before compliance by operator

www.route-one.net

Legal
"Improper minibus operation punished by ban and reduction in fleet
Small vehicle parking issues form part of a ‘cynical’ placement of commercial gain before compliance by operator"

Mike Jewell
Published August 19, 2024

Failing to park small vehicles at its authorised operating centres has led to the O-Licence held by Bristol-based SJ and JM Munden Ltd being cut from 50 vehicles to 40 by Traffic Commissioner (TC) Kevin Rooney, who also disqualified former director Simon Munden from acting as a Transport Manager (TM) indefinitely.

Mr Rooney said that there were two operating centres in Bristol: One at Freestone Road, St Philip’s, for 10 vehicles, and another at Emery Road, Brislington, for 40 vehicles.

The directors were Simon Munden and his son James. Simon Munden was the nominated TM along with Alan Peters. The addition of Mr Peters as TM came about following an increase in authorisation from 40 vehicles to 50 in January 2022. At that time, an undertaking was added to the O-Licence to nominate a second TM by no later than 30 June 2022.

That nomination – made on 30 June 2022 – was not referred to Mr Rooney, which was surprising given that Mr Peters was named as an external TM and already responsible for 15 vehicles at Abus Ltd and four on his own sole trader licence.

It was now clear from a review of the application that Mr Peters was indeed open in that he sought responsibility only for 10 vehicles that were to be based at Freestone Road. However, he was told that Freestone Road was never used to park vehicles, and so Mr Peters formed the view that his responsibility never arose.

‘Cynical move’
It was said that drivers keeping their vehicles at home was the only business model that made the company’s Bristol City Council contracts viable.

The issue with that was how the company bid for those contracts knowing that they could not be undertaken viably while using the listed operating centres. It was a commercial decision that was likely to have undercut any competitors that based their bids on a legal business model. As such, Mr Rooney found that it was a cynical move.

The TC was told that the company had 45 vehicles of over nine seats, and that there were 32 vehicles with fewer than nine seats. However, until this summer, all vehicles of the smaller size operated for Bristol City Council did so under an exemption for “disabled passenger vehicles” – basically, as ambulances.

Bristol City Council told Mr Rooney how a taxi operator had challenged that position, leading to different legal advice that meant all vehicles of that size would need to be operated under an O-Licence.

Mischief scope
Operating small vehicles on a PSV O-Licence created “a myriad of opportunities for mischief,” TC Rooney found. For that reason, permission to do so required an operator to accept several ways of working.

Those were based on a generic starting point but could be tailored to individual requirements. They generally set requirements to reflect those in legislation such as the means of charging, and to enable enforceability.

One such undertaking attached to this O-Licence was as follows: “The operator will advise the TC of the make, model and registration number of vehicles used under that licence and will advise of any changes.”

It was accepted that that undertaking was not complied with. Mr Rooney was told it was because the company did not know how to update vehicle details on the licensing system. That was not a reasonable excuse.

Vehicles had routinely been parked at places other than the nominated operating centres. They were all Ford Transit minibuses, equivalent in size to a 3,500kg GVW long-wheelbase van.

The operating centres of such vans used as goods vehicles are not regulated, even when they fell within scope of O-Licensing due to international operations. But that was not the point. Parliament decided that passenger vehicles with more than nine seats should be regulated as PSVs, and the law applied equally to them.

Simon Munden acted in a grossly dishonest manner in relation to the steps he took to make it appear that there were two active TMs on the licence, TC Rooney found. Mr Munden acted cynically in bidding for contracts that he knew were not viable with a legal business model, and he perpetuated that by not regularising the operation when put on notice of parking issues, putting, and retaining, commercial gain ahead of compliance with the law.

As TM, he was the root cause of the stated inspection frequency being breached over many years despite signing numerous O-Licence continuations. He was also responsible for failing to comply with the small vehicle undertaking. If a TM could not be trusted to champion compliance over everything else, then they simply could not remain as TM.

No revocation
The extent and duration of the parking abuse and the second TM sham put this case into revocation and disqualification territory.

What caused the TC to step back from that was the resignation of Simon Munden as a statutory director. He was not so naïve that he believed that would be the end of Mr Munden’s involvement in the business. It was his business that he had grown with his family, and a continuing interest after all those years was
inevitable.

It would be for James Munden to ensure that his father did not jeopardise compliance and did not seek to act as a de facto or shadow director. If that was found to be the case, it was difficult to see how the O-Licence could survive.

The main driver of regulatory action in this case was to right the wrong of the increase to 50 vehicles that was granted on a false pretence, and the ongoing, long-term commercial gain achieved by not using the nominated operating centres.

A very significant curtailment could be justified, but James Munden must also recognise the wider background. It seemed inevitable that the business would lose the contracts with Bristol City Council for the small vehicles, which was something like a one-third reduction in fleet size, albeit the remaining vehicles were larger.

A curtailment to 40 vehicles reset the clock to where it was prior to the second TM issues arising. In Mr Rooney’s judgement, it was a fair reduction in commercial earning power to offset the parking benefits unfairly accrued. Taken with the City Council change in position, the operation would be cut in size by almost half.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

Some interesting reading here.

Improper minibus operation punished by ban and reduction in fleet

Small vehicle parking issues form part of a ‘cynical’ placement of commercial gain before compliance by operator

www.route-one.net

Certainly an interesting article.
There is a minibus belonging to a local operator which parks outside the drivers house a couple of streets away from me, including overnight. It does a school run but I'm not sure how many seats it has and therefore whether it's licensed as a psv or not.

 

[father_jack]

A fiend of mine in the bus industry did say when we discussed the situation that if the council and/or the Traffic Commissioner was to come down hard on buses not being at the operating centres none of the children would get to school. Nobody wants to do the work for the money offering- that's why standards slip.

 

[Flange Squeal]

A fiend of mine in the bus industry did say when we discussed the situation that if the council and/or the Traffic Commissioner was to come down hard on buses not being at the operating centres none of the children would get to school. Nobody wants to do the work for the money offering- that's why standards slip.

But if no operators were to put in bids for the work at the asking price on account of it not being viable for anyone, then the rates offered would surely have no option but to rise?

 

[father_jack]

But if no operators were to put in bids for the work at the asking price on account of it not being viable for anyone, then the rates offered would surely have no option but to rise?

Oh I agree. But clearly it's not happening yet and that's why the OP started an interesting thread.

 

[Simon75]

I regularly get a Stantons of Stoke bus parked outside during the day. Presumably if the driver has nothing between morning and afternoon school runs.

I have seen at 2 myself parked out outside 2 different houses aswell.
The one that gor me to create the tread was coach outside a house overnight at Whitehill,,Kidsgrove

 

[duncombec]

But if no operators were to put in bids for the work at the asking price on account of it not being viable for anyone, then the rates offered would surely have no option but to rise?

This is probably off-topic for this thread, but I'd suggest it was more likely that routes would be merged or cut (with the inevitable effect that would have on some SEND (Special Educational Needs and Disabilities) recipients. If I've understood meetings correctly, many councils are having to spend an ever-increasing proportion of an ever-decreasing budget on statutory services, and there simply isn't the money available for rates to rise without cutting something else. The figures coming out of some of the larger shire councils (Kent, Hampshire...) are eye-watering already.

I have seen small vehicles (e.g. PSV-licensed transits, small 16-20 seater minicoaches) parked on the owner's driveway locally, especially if it's only a vehicle or two licensed, and with no real way of knowing if it is regularly parked there or just on a break, being washed, etc. I can think of one local operator whose Operating Centre (OC) is a social club car park, but the vehicle is almost always parked on the owner's driveway a couple of streets away. Another local taxi operator (one of those that has PSV licensed work, non-PSV licensed minibuses and regular taxis) which seems to have vehicles parked at drivers' homes during school term. One OC is at a local football club, and the number of vehicles parked there during the school summer holidays is almost double that during regular term (even at the weekend).

 

[Poiuytre]

I believe DekkaBus of Dorset got in trouble for allowing vehicles to be parked on residential streets on a regular basis. I can't find the Public Inquiry report now.

 

[Observer]

Hi Ride on the 40X in Birmingham operated like this for over twenty years right up until 2017 when he shut down. It was a one man bus operator run entirely by the owner who was also the driver and the mechanic. He did everything entirely by himself. He had two Dennis Dart SLF Alexander ALX200 buses which were always parked outside his house. He just used his driveway or the on street parking outside. He had no proper depot. His house was his depot.

It was quite a long back garden with space for two service buses and still managed to have room to fit a car in too, if you see this link on Google Street View.

Certainly makes you wonder how many operators are still managing to squeeze in full size buses and coaches at their house rather than the usual 16 seater (or less) minibuses.

 

[Flange Squeal]

It was quite a long back garden with space for two service buses and still managed to have room to fit a car in too, if you see this link on Google Street View.

Certainly makes you wonder how many operators are still managing to squeeze in full size buses and coaches at their house rather than the usual 16 seater (or less) minibuses.

The proprietor of Cresta Coaches in Hampshire has an authorisation to operate one vehicle out of their home address (with more discs at a yard in local small industrial estate), but their garden doubles up as their maintenance facility with workshop.

This link should take you to a Google Map of the location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/EuWKvbkaa4LUqeVJ8?g_st=ic

 

[Poiuytre]

I'd say that there a numerous rural coach operators where the operators depot is at there home adress (such as farms). But very few - if any now - operating centres which are at a conventional sized house. I believe that it's a requirement that operators of large PSVs must be able to enter and exit there operating centre in a forward gear. I don't know it this applies to smaller PSV Minibuses though

 

[robertclark125]

During the expansion of the Dublin bus network in the 1990s, and early 2000s, one Dublin bus depot was so crowded overnight, a few Volvo Olympian double deckers had to be parked on the street outside the depot. This stopped once Harristown depot opened, allowing some routes, duties, and vehicles to move there.

Moving back to the UK, and I wonder, if there would be local authority restrictions on what types of vehicles can be parked overnight on a residential road.

 

[co-tr-paul]

In my 15 years Bristol based during late 80 s onwards, I would often park a minibus on our driveway especially after a late finish Private Hire. Later , a coach would be found outside the house occasionally. Job and rule changes stopped it during early naughties.

 

[mb88]

Stagecoach still have a number of buses ‘out stationed’ near drivers homes on the Isle of Skye to avoid lengthy dead runs from the depot in Portree. Not sure if it happens elsewhere in the highlands.

 

[cambran]

Some operators conscientiously register all their parking places, Lewis Rhydlewis who operate 23 coaches and minibuses on school contracts in Cardiganshire have 7 locations registered with the traffic commissioners for one vehicle and one for two vehicles. These are farms and private houses over a wide area.
In the same area Richards Brothers have a farm near Llandysul registered for one vehicle not exceeding 16 seats. This is to operate the Bws Bach y Wylad network of routes which are some distance from their Cardigan base.