Buses and the coronavirus

[AdamWW]

As the face coverings on public transport thread is locked, I thought this would be the best place to say: Nicola Sturgeon has announced in the past few minutes (in her parliamentary briefing) that wearing a face covering on public transport, for the foreseeable future, will be as normal as wearing a seatbelt in a car.

I tend to ignore it when politicians use that phrase because they don't seem to mean what I think it means.

When the aviation liquid ban came in on we were going to have tiny hand luggage requirements "for the forseeable future" and it didn't last long.

Perhaps the difference is that politicians tend not to look very far into the future so for them the forseeable future is actually next week.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

One person per double seat on Stagecoach from tomorrow:

https://twitter.com/Stagecoach_East/status/1280881882545164289

This won't apply in Scotland, however.

It appears this will be in effect in Scotland from tomorrow - the window stickers have mostly been removed from Stagecoach buses I've seen today. Seats adjacent to the driver, rear-facing seats on the rear wheelarch and the 5-a-breast seats at the rear all had stickers remaining.

 

[AdamWW]

One person per double seat on Stagecoach from tomorrow:

https://twitter.com/Stagecoach_East/status/1280881882545164289

So...don't sit next to or beside someone.
I take this to mean people sit in staggered seats (so alternating window and aisle seats).
Near 50% (seated) capacity.
Not where we used to be, but a lot closer to it.

I wonder when we'll see rail companies allowing that?

Or buses in London, for that matter. 10 people per bus is pretty ridiculous.

 

[birchesgreen]

I tend to ignore it when politicians use that phrase because they don't seem to mean what I think it means.

When the aviation liquid ban came in on we were going to have tiny hand luggage requirements "for the forseeable future" and it didn't last long.

Perhaps the difference is that politicians tend not to look very far into the future so for them the forseeable future is actually next week.

I read once that to a politician the "foreseeable future" is the next set of news headlines.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I think the biggest challenge will be when schools return - and for once, Scotland will be facing that challenge before England!

Perhaps Nanny Sturgeon will close all roads to all traffic 0800-0900 and 1500-1600 (earlier on Fridays) so that all kids can walk to school. Remember you read it on RailUKforums first. Ahead of the news!

 

[CN04NRJ]

Another 210 vehicles and 600 staff back off furlough from Sunday at Lothian.

Most services back to a full daytime timetable - the 30 for example has a better than normal timetable with a 10 minute frequency Monday - Friday whereas pre lockdown it was 12 minutes. Obviously in that case it's a very busy route and the 13' bridge at Newcraighall is the problem.

 

[MDB1images]

A sad note as CNN reports a bus driver in France has died following his injuries after being attacked after asking people to put on masks to board.

French bus driver attacked over mask rules dies | CNN

A bus driver in France who was beaten up by passengers refusing to wear mandatory face masks died in hospital Friday, French Prime Minister Jean Castex and the victim's family have said.

www.cnn.com

 

[ChrisC]

I wanted to ask a few questions about leisure travel by bus in tourist areas.
I used this thread rather than starting a new one.

I’ve booked a few nights next week in a hotel in North Yorkshire. I usually travel by public transport whilst on holiday often using rail and bus rover tickets but have decided in the current situation to travel there by car and mostly use the car whilst there.
I have been considering at least one of day out by bus but did wonder in the busy tourist area like the Yorkshire Coast and North Yorkshire Moors whether there could be difficulties with buses being full to capacity on some routes. I don’t want to rely on a bus service and then find the buses full on routes without a frequent service. Also there is the problem of last buses especially of routes where there is no evening service.

East Yorkshire buses seem to be taking the sensible line that on the last bus of the day they will not leave passengers behind even if social distancing measures cannot be maintained.
Arriva, however, still appear to be taking a harder line advising passengers not to rely on the last bus of the day. They state on their website that the reduced capacity numbers cannot be exceeded and this even applies to the last bus of the day. Is this still the case and could I have problems with full buses especially on busy routes like Scarborough to Whitby?

Perhaps I will have no problems whatsoever and find that the buses in North Yorkshire are still running almost empty as they seem to be in many areas.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I saw the 25 (Stockport to Trafford Centre) last night around 20:00, ten minutes into its journey. There were around half a dozen on board, which was not bad for a Tuesday evening. This bus was empty during lockdown even during the day, and I think it had 3 or 4 on it just a few weeks ago. So like rail, bus passenger numbers are very slowly recovering.

 

[Bikeman78]

I saw the 25 (Stockport to Trafford Centre) last night around 20:00, ten minutes into its journey. There were around half a dozen on board, which was not bad for a Tuesday evening. This bus was empty during lockdown even during the day, and I think it had 3 or 4 on it just a few weeks ago. So like rail, bus passenger numbers are very slowly recovering.

I've seen a few "bus full" signs in Cardiff but they were running at half frequency until the end of August. I'm pleased to report that normal service has resumed on most routes from September 1st.

 

[Huntergreed]

I was in Blackpool yesterday and I saw a lot of trams saying “Sorry - Tram Full” when there were plenty of empty seats (obviously it was “distancing” full).

I was eating in a restaurant and thought I would try counting, if you wanted to catch a Northbound tram from Central Pier, and you arrived at 12:00PM yesterday, the first tram you would have been able to board (ie wasn’t full) was around 13:20. This can’t go on

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was in Blackpool yesterday and I saw a lot of trams saying “Sorry - Tram Full” when there were plenty of empty seats (obviously it was “distancing” full).

I was eating in a restaurant and thought I would try counting, if you wanted to catch a Northbound tram from Central Pier, and you arrived at 12:00PM yesterday, the first tram you would have been able to board (ie wasn’t full) was around 13:20. This can’t go on

That sounds like "situation normal" on the old trams where conductors enforced seating capacity with an iron fist, and was basically why the parallel bus route (1?) had to exist.

 

[alex397]

What is the situation with bringing dogs on board buses with Coronavirus? The T&Cs of my local operator havent changed, so I presume dogs continue to be allowed as always (at the drivers discretion). I haven't seen any myself on the bus or train since lockdown, and I worry some drivers and passengers may be a bit funny about it (as some consider dogs dirty). I often used to take my dog on the bus and walk back, and i'm planning a trip soon on a day off. I'm probably over-thinking it...

 

[stuartl]

What is the situation with bringing dogs on board buses with Coronavirus? The T&Cs of my local operator havent changed, so I presume dogs continue to be allowed as always (at the drivers discretion). I haven't seen any myself on the bus or train since lockdown, and I worry some drivers and passengers may be a bit funny about it (as some consider dogs dirty). I often used to take my dog on the bus and walk back, and i'm planning a trip soon on a day off. I'm probably over-thinking it...

First bus in Sheffield don't seem to have a problem with dogs. one got on my bus (with owner) yesterday

 

[Dai Corner]

First bus in Sheffield don't seem to have a problem with dogs. one got on my bus (with owner) yesterday

Nor Stagecoach South Wales the other day. Owner paid £1 for dog's ticket.

 

[radamfi]

When is the bail out for commercial services going to end?

 

[alex397]

I’ve travelled a lot by public transport recently, but today was my first post-lockdown experience of a fully-loaded bus.

I was on a return journey today, later than I wanted to as an earlier bus was cancelled meaning I had to risk a bus which went past a school post-3pm. Unsurprisingly we stopped at this school with a huge crowd of kids wanting to get on. They packed the bus out, more than the recommended capacity, and the vast majority were not wearing masks. A group of them near me then decided to have a fake coughing-fit to annoy everyone. That was nice. I’m sure it went down well with all the old ladies who I was sharing the bus with before these delightful children joined the bus.

This is why I am driving my car more and more. One major disadvantage of public transport is having to share it with undesirables. Post-lockdown, many people will be anxious about travelling by public transport, rightly or wrongly. Scenes like this are understandably off-putting for many.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A group of them near me then decided to have a fake coughing-fit to annoy everyone

Which, fundamentally, is why I haven't travelled since March 20th. Had a similar experience with some college age youths who thought it all a great laugh, how their mate had it, how they were supposed to be self-isolating etc. Simply decided 'I just don't want to be on this bus anymore'. The company can clean their bus every 5 minutes, have social distancing or whatever, it is the other irresponsible minority of passengers that I am wary of. If I end up catching it, it will be from someone like that. Same goes for pubs. Just no need to visit them at the moment, so I'm not.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Has anyone else seen serious issues with compliance of face mask rules and social distancing in relation to service bus routes used by commuters and students alike where it's not viable to run a seperate school/public route.

I've been on a few bus services in East Anglia in the past couple of weeks, and it's become increasingly apparent that at bus stations and stops all over the region students are not keeping their distance and when they are getting on buses they're all going upstairs and congregating around the back of the bus and taking their mask off.

I was on the 17:15 Beestons 91 on Wednesday from Ipswich to Sudbury, visiting a relative in Long Melford and the huddles of students at Ipswich Cattle Market, coughing over each other and not giving a damn about social distancing and masks was terrible. As the bus pulled in all of them put the masks on, went right to the back of the bus upstairs and took their masks off and huddled together and then put it back on as they got off the bus so the driver couldn't see.

I know Beestons have already put on a dedicated student bus on the 91 on the busiest student departures of the day (07:35 ex Sudbury and 15:45 ex Ipswich) but understandably say they cannot duplicate every single bus all day long as the costs to do so, both in terms of drivers and vehicles is unsustainable. The fact that Beestons are currently advertising vehicles in their fleet for sale that are just two or so years old suggests that they must be short on cash.

Whilst the laws say that face coverings are mandatory on shared routes with the public, it appears that operators have little or no power to refuse students entry to a bus if they are wearing one as they board, even if that person every time has took it off after boarding and the drivers cannot just children off the buses because they have a duty of care to them. It is making people who have to use the bus to commute to work very nervous, because these kids 'right to an education' seems to trump the health and wellbeing of people who are following the laws.

I understand that students have a right to an education, but it's my personal belief that anyone floating the rules on a regular basis should be banned from public transport. The greater good of the public must come first. There are myself and many of my colleagues and friends who will probably out of a job if a second lockdown happens as our employers are already on the brink.

I have complied with all the regulations from day one. Why should I have to potentially suffer a loss of employment because it's deemed more important to provide someones right to an education, despite the fact they couldn't care less about anyone but themselves?

 

[Deerfold]

Has anyone else seen serious issues with compliance of face mask rules and social distancing in relation to service bus routes used by commuters and students alike where it's not viable to run a seperate school/public route.

I've been on a few bus services in East Anglia in the past couple of weeks, and it's become increasingly apparent that at bus stations and stops all over the region students are not keeping their distance and when they are getting on buses they're all going upstairs and congregating around the back of the bus and taking their mask off.

I was on the 17:15 Beestons 91 on Wednesday from Ipswich to Sudbury, visiting a relative in Long Melford and the huddles of students at Ipswich Cattle Market, coughing over each other and not giving a damn about social distancing and masks was terrible. As the bus pulled in all of them put the masks on, went right to the back of the bus upstairs and took their masks off and huddled together and then put it back on as they got off the bus so the driver couldn't see.

I know Beestons have already put on a dedicated student bus on the 91 on the busiest student departures of the day (07:35 ex Sudbury and 15:45 ex Ipswich) but understandably say they cannot duplicate every single bus all day long as the costs to do so, both in terms of drivers and vehicles is unsustainable. The fact that Beestons are currently advertising vehicles in their fleet for sale that are just two or so years old suggests that they must be short on cash.

Whilst the laws say that face coverings are mandatory on shared routes with the public, it appears that operators have little or no power to refuse students entry to a bus if they are wearing one as they board, even if that person every time has took it off after boarding and the drivers cannot just children off the buses because they have a duty of care to them. It is making people who have to use the bus to commute to work very nervous, because these kids 'right to an education' seems to trump the health and wellbeing of people who are following the laws.

I understand that students have a right to an education, but it's my personal belief that anyone floating the rules on a regular basis should be banned from public transport. The greater good of the public must come first. There are myself and many of my colleagues and friends who will probably out of a job if a second lockdown happens as our employers are already on the brink.

I have complied with all the regulations from day one. Why should I have to potentially suffer a loss of employment because it's deemed more important to provide someones right to an education, despite the fact they couldn't care less about anyone but themselves?

Compliance in my area is dreadful, but nothing to do with schoolchildren.

It's possible that a large number of people are exempt from wearing masks, but as well as those there are large numbers boarding buses with masks under the nose as well as those who remove them as soon as they sit down.

Despite loving public transport, I'm minimising my use of it at the moment.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The bus operators are going to have to deal with this problem (non-masking and non-enforcement). But, for the majority of the country outside London, there simply is no kind of on-the-road supervisory staff any longer. The Ticket Inspector is a figure from history, as are any kind of traffic regulation inspectors. Clearly, the bus companies have identified that their customers want to be reassured about how safe their bus is and how much distancing there will be (hence all the posters, twitter messages etc about cleaning regimes and capacity). What is equally clear is that a large number of passengers are yet to return to using the bus. It may be that 'everyone' has returned but they are using it much less often, but I suspect not. I suspect a large group have either walked away entirely (me) or are down to absolutely necessary journeys only. I'm not using buses for the reasons given in #618, @Deerfold is minimising his use, and so on.

I accept there will be vehicle and driver issues around this, but perhaps the solution is a two-tier bus system - one for scholars (of all ages) and one for everyone else. Some areas have this already, and have had for years, with closed door contracts. I'm thinking of places like Skipton, Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale, where the schools each see a dozen and more vehicles delivering the scholars daily. Many rural areas seem to operate on this basis and locally a similar situation exists outside of The Potteries but with very little contract provision within the urban area. COVID has seen a number of dulpicate 'scholars only' buses and some closed door contracts introduced. It's a personal view, but I would accept a short term reduction in frequency in order to deliver the buses necessary to provide a two-tier system.

 

[takno]

The bus operators are going to have to deal with this problem (non-masking and non-enforcement). But, for the majority of the country outside London, there simply is no kind of on-the-road supervisory staff any longer. The Ticket Inspector is a figure from history, as are any kind of traffic regulation inspectors. Clearly, the bus companies have identified that their customers want to be reassured about how safe their bus is and how much distancing there will be (hence all the posters, twitter messages etc about cleaning regimes and capacity). What is equally clear is that a large number of passengers are yet to return to using the bus. It may be that 'everyone' has returned but they are using it much less often, but I suspect not. I suspect a large group have either walked away entirely (me) or are down to absolutely necessary journeys only. I'm not using buses for the reasons given in #618, @Deerfold is minimising his use, and so on.

I accept there will be vehicle and driver issues around this, but perhaps the solution is a two-tier bus system - one for scholars (of all ages) and one for everyone else. Some areas have this already, and have had for years, with closed door contracts. I'm thinking of places like Skipton, Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale, where the schools each see a dozen and more vehicles delivering the scholars daily. Many rural areas seem to operate on this basis and locally a similar situation exists outside of The Potteries but with very little contract provision within the urban area. COVID has seen a number of dulpicate 'scholars only' buses and some closed door contracts introduced. It's a personal view, but I would accept a short term reduction in frequency in order to deliver the buses necessary to provide a two-tier system.

The trouble is that there isn't the capacity to double up all buses. The only result of some kind of attempt to split the traffic will be that the kids get buses and the adults don't.

Like many people who can't wear a mask I don't personally feel safe getting on a bus without a mask anyway. If anything the kids being kids are making me feel more able to take buses

 

[Dai Corner]

Stagecoach South Wales have introduced some additional services timed to suit students / schoolchildren and keep them apart from other passengers. They're in the 9xx series so for example the 951 follows part of the 151 route. The combined peak time frequency is no greater than pre-Covid though. I haven't been out to see how well this is working.

The only time I've encountered schoolchildren on a public bus recently is some sixth formers who had presumably finished their lessons for the day and didn't want to wait for the dedicated buses. They were all behaving perfectly, wearing masks and sitting apart from each other and other passengers as far as possible.

 

[radamfi]

In other countries they allow all seats to be used on buses, trams and trains as long as people wear masks, so presumably social distancing isn't really needed on buses.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I accept there will be vehicle and driver issues around this, but perhaps the solution is a two-tier bus system - one for scholars (of all ages) and one for everyone else. Some areas have this already, and have had for years, with closed door contracts. I'm thinking of places like Skipton, Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale, where the schools each see a dozen and more vehicles delivering the scholars daily. Many rural areas seem to operate on this basis and locally a similar situation exists outside of The Potteries but with very little contract provision within the urban area. COVID has seen a number of dulpicate 'scholars only' buses and some closed door contracts introduced. It's a personal view, but I would accept a short term reduction in frequency in order to deliver the buses necessary to provide a two-tier system.

Unless somebody is going to fund this kind of operation, then it simply isn't going to happen as to do so would push the bus companies, especially the smaller independent ones, into financial ruin and many of them are already teetering on the edge. The operator who I spoke about has put on extra college services that run alongside service buses and also changed some buses to be be students only and a drop in frequency to the public but there are not resources, be that human, financial or vehicles to do full doubling up for all vehicles. The fact they're openly advertising their newest vehicles suggests they need the cash.

The other problem is that where there are dedicated services for colleges and some general services that call in colleges where a doubling up is not viable, often students are not taking the dedicated services and are taking the general public services. Some operators tried to get round this problem by re-routing some services deliberately away from the colleges or refusing entry to students on some vehicles but the parents have raised merry hell about their darlings being denied access to buses and having to 'wait half an hour for a bus' so such services have had to be reinstated to such colleges, even though those same darlings already have access to their own bus services the public can't use.

In somewhere like Suffolk that's already had savage council subsidy cuts where basically some places have no service at all in the evenings or on a Sunday, I cannot see the hapless council coming out and dealing with these problems. Their mantra appears to be children have a right to an education and if students are getting on the bus and behaving in a way that can effect other people then that's just do bad and is a problem for the operators to deal with and none of their concern since it's better for those children to be in school and infecting other people on the bus rather than being banned from going to school.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The fact they're openly advertising their newest vehicles suggests they need the cash.

That may be the case, or they may have spotted an opportunity to sell assets at a higher than expected price - with operators across the country snapping up anything and everything. I don't follow the dealers, but I guess prices have increased for second hand vehicles.

 

[alex397]

Who is going to stop them though?
Bus drivers have enough to deal without asking teenagers to put masks on. The abuse they will get in return is not worth it. And teenagers seem to be getting more and more aggressive and abusive.
Sure, they could do the ‘turn off the engine and read the newspaper’ tactic, but drivers shouldn’t have to, and it might mean they lose some of their break.

It is stressful enough having to share a public bus with school and college children, but this is especially worse with all the anxieties around Covid with kids not wearing masks and not social distancing

 

[Bletchleyite]

I accept there will be vehicle and driver issues around this, but perhaps the solution is a two-tier bus system - one for scholars (of all ages) and one for everyone else. Some areas have this already, and have had for years, with closed door contracts. I'm thinking of places like Skipton, Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale, where the schools each see a dozen and more vehicles delivering the scholars daily. Many rural areas seem to operate on this basis and locally a similar situation exists outside of The Potteries but with very little contract provision within the urban area. COVID has seen a number of dulpicate 'scholars only' buses and some closed door contracts introduced. It's a personal view, but I would accept a short term reduction in frequency in order to deliver the buses necessary to provide a two-tier system.

That is happening in some places - London and Milton Keynes to name two.

The reason it doesn't normally happen is pretty much that (in my understanding) BSOG is not claimable for a "closed" service. Which I believe is why the obscure routes that are unlikely to be useful to anyone other than a schoolkid (or a teacher, but they probably wouldn't want to) often are technically open to all.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The reason it doesn't normally happen is pretty much that (in my understanding) BSOG is not claimable for a "closed" service. Which I believe is why the obscure routes that are unlikely to be useful to anyone other than a schoolkid (or a teacher, but they probably wouldn't want to) often are technically open to all.

Correct - BSOG (Bus Service Operator's Grant) is only eligible to registered bus routes. It's also why some operators have some odd 1-a-day journeys, or journeys at ungodly hours to/from depots so they can claim back some of the otherwise dead mileage. A few years ago Stagecoach EScot registered a service which just so happened to go near the depot, so they terminated it there and drivers used it as a shuttle to get to/from town.

Back on-topic, one operator is now operating a duplicate at school times (unregistered, mind) in Dundee, and pupils are directed to use that rather than the "ordinary" service bus.

 

[175mph]

In other countries they allow all seats to be used on buses, trams and trains as long as people wear masks, so presumably social distancing isn't really needed on buses.

Please could you provide some clarification as to exactly which other countries allow all the seats to be used on public transport? Surely the UK can't be the only country not to allow this? Your post sounds rather ambiguous without specifying any examples of which countries.