Bus ticket accounting/audit

[telstarbox]

I would be grateful if someone could outline how accounting and audit work with bus tickets (outside the Oyster system and assuming fares vary by distance).

From a passenger point of view the system appears as follows:
- Passenger states destination or shows pass
- Driver presses relevant key to generate the fare and ticket
- Ticket prints out with correct fare and destination
- Passenger pays cash if required and takes ticket.

Is there a way for drivers to record on the machine the use of season tickets or the return half of a return ticket?

The machine presumably keeps a running total of the cash collected, but what happens during a driver changeover or at the end of the shift - does the machine print a total which is given to the office with the cash to prevent theft?

For services which are subsidised eg by a local authority, how do they validate or audit the ENCTS payments and verify the fares collected?

TIA!

 

[northwichcat]

For ENCTS they are supposed to ask the passenger where they are travelling to and then record the journey accordingly, which is then charged back to the council who issue the pass.

With day tickets and Plusbus they never seem to be bothered where you're going to (within the permitted boundary) so if got on a bus and getting off at the next stop, then when the next bus came along did the same thing over 20 miles then it could give an artificially high passenger count for that route.

 

[90019]

The machine presumably keeps a running total of the cash collected, but what happens during a driver changeover or at the end of the shift - does the machine print a total which is given to the office with the cash to prevent theft?

When we sign out of the Wayfarer, we get a driver report ticket which has various bits of information on it (bus, block, driver, time on, time off).
There are sections for total cash taken, total tickets, passes, annul cash and annul tickets, with a net cash section at the bottom. But they don't apply to those of us on the normal service buses, so all show 0.
The Airlink drivers do deal with cash, and I believe they have to cash in after each shift and hand in that ticket (which does show that stuff) with the necessary paperwork to show that they have the correct amount, though I can't say for certain what happens, as I've never done it myself.

 

[atraindriver]

For ENCTS they are supposed to ask the passenger where they are travelling to and then record the journey accordingly, which is then charged back to the council who issue the pass.

I think that may depend on the funding agreement the operator has with the council?

Certainly on the two operators I use locally ENCTS pass users are never asked for a destination and the ticket issue is automatic (i.e. the driver doesn't touch the ticket machine, the ticket is issued immediately the machine recognises the card).

I assume that the council must survey the routes at some point each year to get a handle on the journeys being made, given that fares on all local routes are distance-based.

 

[cainebj]

At the company I work for we have a button on the machine to record a passenger using a daily/weekly pass. Return tickets are automatically recorded on the machine when the ticket punch is used.
Valid ENCTS cards will automatically change the adult single fare from the fare value to ZERO, for a concessionary ticket to be issued.

As already said, some machines will print out a drivers report when the driver signs off the machine. A 2nd print out is given when the driver signs off his/her "module" (on a Wayfarer system) back at the depot, which are handed in with takings for the day, usually accompanied by a drivers cash form or similar to make sure the cash does add up to the correct total.

 

[richw]

When I've used Ride Cornwall the driver on both First and Western Greyhound have keyed something into the machine, bit no output and they don't ask where I'm going. I've assumed its for recording passenger numbers.

 

[Greenback]

First Cymru drivers press a button on their machine if you have a day ticket or a season. As their fares are so high I almost always get a day ticket if I have to use the bus, so I see this a fair bit.

 

[telstarbox]

Thanks to everyone for the info above.

On a related point, how do operators monitor running late/running early or missing out stops - is this generally done by GPS tracking?

 

[radamfi]

Thanks to everyone for the info above.

On a related point, how do operators monitor running late/running early or missing out stops - is this generally done by GPS tracking?

I asked a bus manager this and he claims that most 'reputable' operators use GPS tracking. I have been on a tour of one of Metrobus' depots and they showed us their tracking system. Buses running early or late were flagged automatically.

However, given that most operators don't offer real time information, how do we know they are actually using their tracking properly? If a passenger has a complaint about a bus running early, can evidence from tracking be presented and, if necessary, supplied to the Traffic Commissioners?

Ideally, it should be a requirement that all bus services have to supply GPS tracking data to the TCs and local authorities so that they can process the data as they see fit.

 

[Deerfold]

However, given that most operators don't offer real time information, how do we know they are actually using their tracking properly? If a passenger has a complaint about a bus running early, can evidence from tracking be presented and, if necessary, supplied to the Traffic Commissioners?

The Traffic Commissioners are unlikely to get involved in a case of a single bus being early. They're more worried about consistent early running.

 

[radamfi]

The Traffic Commissioners are unlikely to get involved in a case of a single bus being early. They're more worried about consistent early running.

Ideally, it should not even be necessary for a passenger to make a complaint. The TCs (or whoever) should be processing the data continuously so that issues can be flagged automatically.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Ideally, it should not even be necessary for a passenger to make a complaint. The TCs (or whoever) should be processing the data continuously so that issues can be flagged automatically.

Deerfold is right. They're not going to be that bothered in every instance but where consistent issues are identified. The TCs are pretty well stretched in terms of resources

 

[radamfi]

The TCs are pretty well stretched in terms of resources

So an automated approach (as I proposed) would be best.

 

[Deerfold]

Ideally, it should not even be necessary for a passenger to make a complaint. The TCs (or whoever) should be processing the data continuously so that issues can be flagged automatically.

You do realise how big a job that would be?

There is such a system in London. It's taken years and cost millions to introduce - and that's with TfL negotiating for the kit to be pre-fitted on buses by the manufacturers (after retrofitting existing vehicles). It still requires support from a team that's probably bigger than most of the TCs have at the moment.

Given the lack of money available outside London for buses generally, who's paying for this?

 

[radamfi]

You do realise how big a job that would be?

There is such a system in London. It's taken years and cost millions to introduce - and that's with TfL negotiating for the kit to be pre-fitted on buses by the manufacturers (after retrofitting existing vehicles). It still requires support from a team that's probably bigger than most of the TCs have at the moment.

Given the lack of money available outside London for buses generally, who's paying for this?

How about just piggybanking onto TfL's system? That would save a lot of money.

Of course it isn't free, but I think ensuring buses run on time is kind of important. Operators would pay, and if they can't afford it, then they are free to deregister their commercial networks.

 

[Deerfold]

How about just piggybanking onto TfL's system? That would save a lot of money.

Probably not. There's a cost per bus and a cost per garage - and the cost of the central system pretty much scales with size. The system doesn't work well for RTI without mobile phone coverage so some areas of the country are right out - and the business case in London only works as it's pickybacked onto the RTI system.

Of course it isn't free, but I think ensuring buses run on time is kind of important. Operators would pay, and if they can't afford it, then they are free to deregister their commercial networks.

It is important but we've had this argument before - I don't think it's worth increasing costs for bus companies by such a significant amount that they are likely to deregister a significant number of routes. Unfortunately most councils are unable to replace significant reductions in commercial networks - so this improvement in buses running on time would come at a cost of some people losing their buses altogether.

Once you've got all this data on whether buses are running on time what do you do with it?

 

[radamfi]

Metrobus have offered real time info for around a decade now. They operate in quite unpromising bus territory. They've got the airport and quite good bus priority in Crawley but otherwise their operating area is not that great. High car ownership and congested roads. You can't seriously claim that Crawley and East Surrey is more profitable than Manchester or West Yorkshire? So there's no excuse for operators in the big cities not to do this.

Metrobus probably make good use of this data to further improve their network. TfL obviously use it for enforcement and contract purposes and no doubt use it for planning purposes too. So I'm sure the data could be put to good use other than for monitoring punctuality. The mere fact that the data is being collected would be enough for operators to sort themselves out.

 

[vicbury]

You do realise how big a job that would be?

There is such a system in London. It's taken years and cost millions to introduce - and that's with TfL negotiating for the kit to be pre-fitted on buses by the manufacturers (after retrofitting existing vehicles). It still requires support from a team that's probably bigger than most of the TCs have at the moment.

Given the lack of money available outside London for buses generally, who's paying for this?

Most operators and services in the West of England (Bath and North East Somerset, Bristol City, North Somerset, South Gloucestershire) now use real time information and hundreds, if not thousands, of stops have displays. I believe it was jointly funded by the operators and grants from central government and it all seems to work pretty well, even on the rural services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So an automated approach (as I proposed) would be best.

What sort of automated approach?

Yes, you can harvest the data automatically, and undertake trend analysis. However, pursuing each and every instance just isn't practicable so if the 14 arrives in Truro ten minutes late one day, what happens?

An alert is raised. On one occasion or within a reference period? TC automatically raises an issue with the operator, requiring an investigation. Operator investigates - it was an RTA, they claim. What then happens? How does the TC investigate further to check the voracity of the response? Then replicate that x number of times per day, per week......

I think that this is where Deerfold is coming in. You can automatically harvest the data but who then acts on it and how? Like I say, resources are stretched and unless serious and long standing issues occur, then TCs aren't going to have the resources to act. TfL, with its disproportionate budget, can spare the time to investigate these but not the rest of the country.

As for real time info, I think the technology is becoming reliable and cheap enough that it will become the norm. As with most things, the initial costs are expensive for early adopters (as with wifi and SLF buses) but then costs come down as things progress.

 

[Deerfold]

Most operators and services in the West of England (Bath and North East Somerset, Bristol City, North Somerset, South Gloucestershire) now use real time information and hundreds, if not thousands, of stops have displays. I believe it was jointly funded by the operators and grants from central government and it all seems to work pretty well, even on the rural services.

Are all the buses fitted or do the smaller operators not have them? When new buses are used how long does it take for them to be fitted?

I like the system used in West Yorkshire, but of the 3 operators that pass my house only one has fitted buses. One of the others has a PVR of 1 (2 very briefly for around 20 minutes each morning and afternoon).

Whenever an operator gets new buses there's always a delay before the buses are fitted.

What sort of automated approach?

Yes, you can harvest the data automatically, and undertake trend analysis. However, pursuing each and every instance just isn't practicable so if the 14 arrives in Truro ten minutes late one day, what happens?

An alert is raised. On one occasion or within a reference period? TC automatically raises an issue with the operator, requiring an investigation. Operator investigates - it was an RTA, they claim. What then happens? How does the TC investigate further to check the voracity of the response? Then replicate that x number of times per day, per week......

I think that this is where Deerfold is coming in. You can automatically harvest the data but who then acts on it and how? Like I say, resources are stretched and unless serious and long standing issues occur, then TCs aren't going to have the resources to act. TfL, with its disproportionate budget, can spare the time to investigate these but not the rest of the country.

Quite. Even within TfL only repeating problems are investigated in detail. The system for being paid highlights any journey patterns that do not conform
to TfL's requirements and then operators explain what happened - depending on the explanation they do or don't get paid. These are randomly audited but not every one is looked into.

As for real time info, I think the technology is becoming reliable and cheap enough that it will become the norm. As with most things, the initial costs are expensive for early adopters (as with wifi and SLF buses) but then costs come down as things progress.

As, I've said before, I'm a big fan - I think it will become more common and bus companies should be encouraged to provide it. However I don't think it's worth risking the viability of a route to do so (and I realise that having it can encourage people to have more trust in the bus service but only once it's paid for).

 

[radamfi]

How do we explain how buses in Surrey, Sussex, Oxford, Edinburgh, etc. can afford real-time info but major operators in the big cities generally can't?

 

[northwichcat]

How do we explain how buses in Surrey, Sussex, Oxford, Edinburgh, etc. can afford real-time info but major operators in the big cities generally can't?

More competition may be an issue. Would First and Stagecoach agree to fit their buses with the same type of tracking device so that they can appear on the same bus displays?

 

[radamfi]

More competition may be an issue. Would First and Stagecoach agree to fit their buses with the same type of tracking device so that they can appear on the same bus displays?

Most of the places I mention don't have much competition, however Oxford is famous for having two parallel networks, although they are now combined through partnership.

First and Stagecoach generally run in monopoly situations in, say Greater Manchester, although competition has escalated in the last year or so.

 

[bussnapperwm]

How do we explain how buses in Surrey, Sussex, Oxford, Edinburgh, etc. can afford real-time info but major operators in the big cities generally can't?

Birmingham and the Black Country have RTI fitted on NXWM buses too...

 

[Abpj17]

It's not that big a job. The buses will increasingly have the IT.

http://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/centrebus-luton-dunstable-achieving-lot-little/2/

All Centrebus buses now have realtime information. Although they all produce signals, not all local authorities choose to pick them up and feed them back to stop displays as they do in Dunstable.

David explained that although in some places passengers were not getting the benefit they might from the technology, it was nevertheless worth having. ‘We’re using realtime information for management and it’s proving invaluable,’ he said. ‘The control room can track all buses and get punctuality statistics. We have already amended the 10 service twice based on surveys of the data. No peak time departures on the route have the same running times.’

The bus stop opposite my house lists the next three buses. But, it's fair to say that traffic can be pretty awful in Luton/Dunstable so they may see more benefit from fine-tuning their schedules and real-time monitoring than providers in other areas.

 

[vicbury]

Are all the buses fitted or do the smaller operators not have them? When new buses are used how long does it take for them to be fitted?

I like the system used in West Yorkshire, but of the 3 operators that pass my house only one has fitted buses. One of the others has a PVR of 1 (2 very briefly for around 20 minutes each morning and afternoon).

Whenever an operator gets new buses there's always a delay before the buses are fitted.

From this list provided by Travel West, real time is predominantly used by First, Wessex (Rotala), The Kings Ferry, CT Plus, Abus and Somerbus. The latter two are pretty small, and CT Plus don't have a huge presence here.

I've mainly experienced RTPI through First and I believe that new vehicles are fitted with the system prior to going into service, and they also fit it to vehicles transferred from elsewhere. Even some of the S-reg SPDs which came from Yorkshire had it fitted! Interestingly, since First have fitted it in Bath, punctuality has greatly improved (drivers no longer able to extend their breaks at the end of routes and leave late?) and on a certain route where drivers often skipped going to a stop which was off the main road, the buses now always serve this stop!

For operators not using RTPI, certain locations, such as Bath Bus Station, display their scheduled departures on the RTPI displays. I believe buses which are not being tracked for whatever reason also fall back to scheduled data.

The scale of the system round here is pretty impressive, as this map shows.

I wish Stagecoach would invest in it, their Route 66 in Swindon is almost always late and knowing so in advance would save me from pointlessly waiting at bus stops every day..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most of the places I mention don't have much competition, however Oxford is famous for having two parallel networks, although they are now combined through partnership.

First and Stagecoach generally run in monopoly situations in, say Greater Manchester, although competition has escalated in the last year or so.

First arguably have a monopoly in the West of England and RTPI is widely used here, see above.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Aren't we in danger of talking of two different aspects of RTPI, in terms of delivery?

You've got the physical tracking of the vehicle that can now be done via GPS contained within the newest ticket machines. This information can be provided by the operator and/or a local authority for access on-line and increasingly via a smartphone app. It is this technology that will gather pace as businesses replace ticket machines with new versions etc. Some businesses, such as Metrobus, do provide this.

Then you have the physical display screens that are located at stops. To use Crawley as the example, the GPS feed is indeed provide by Metrobus but the physical infrastructure is provided by West Sussex CC, IIRC. In general, such facilities are provided by LAs or PTEs.

I think I read that a local authority (Kent CC) are turning off most of their RTPI screens to save money. The interesting Public Transport Experience blog details the provision of roadside timetabling and bus stop flags in Chard in Somerset and how since Somerset CC cut the funding, the situation is dire. Hence why I think the future does lay in operators and LA's heading down the smartphone route (and yes, I do appreciate that not everyone has one or can get a signal).

 

[radamfi]

I think the Crawley bus stop displays are actually provided by Surrey CC, even though Crawley is in West Sussex, as Surrey already had a system so it made sense to tag onto that. However, Metrobus provide real time info for all their routes, and have done for years, even on routes which only run every 2 hours, and so clearly bus stop displays don't exist at bus stops only served a few times a day.

The important thing is for this data to be freely available through the web or through apps, for the company to use it properly to ensure drivers don't leave early etc., if necessary to be used in disciplinary action, and to any individual or any organisation who wants it for enforcement and monitoring purposes.

 

[90019]

More competition may be an issue. Would First and Stagecoach agree to fit their buses with the same type of tracking device so that they can appear on the same bus displays?

At least some First buses now appear on some screens at stops in Edinburgh.

I only noticed yesterday that the X95 was showing up on one at North Bridge, so I don't know the extent of it yet.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the Crawley bus stop displays are actually provided by Surrey CC, even though Crawley is in West Sussex, as Surrey already had a system so it made sense to tag onto that. However, Metrobus provide real time info for all their routes, and have done for years, even on routes which only run every 2 hours, and so clearly bus stop displays don't exist at bus stops only served a few times a day.

The important thing is for this data to be freely available through the web or through apps, for the company to use it properly to ensure drivers don't leave early etc., if necessary to be used in disciplinary action, and to any individual or any organisation who wants it for enforcement and monitoring purposes.

I don't know if they are.... WSCC has an extensive system across the county

https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/livin...transport/real-time_displays_and_audio_i.aspx

The fact is that as companies upgrade their ticket machines, GPS reporting will become the norm and that allows companies or local authorities to provide RTPI.

However, I think you're still missing Deerfold's point. The biggest firms already provide a wealth of information and this can be used by TC's for enforcement or investigation. It's what the trigger point is, as investigating each instance is just not possible.