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Bus Services Act 2017

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THarris123

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Can someone explain what the buses bill is and what the consequences will be for each of our areas and operators if it is approved?

Will it affect the South West and Somerset? Might we see some reversals of cuts to bus services?
 
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deltic

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HSTEd

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It is very unlikely that it will ever amount to anything significant.
The bar has been set extremely high and with the Conservatives in control of a working majority they will crush the proposed Lords amendments that make it possible for councils to actually form new Munis or franchise any buses on demand.

But I suppose it is worth the attempt.
 

carlberry

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Can someone explain what the buses bill is and what the consequences will be for each of our areas and operators if it is approved?

Will it affect the South West and Somerset? Might we see some reversals of cuts to bus services?

It means that all bus services will become as perfect as they are in London as they'll all be designed by councillors (who are experts in the subject) and paid for by the boundless amounts of money that will suddenly appear from somewhere as a result of the bill. (Bus services will be slightly less attractive by that time because of the ability to catch a lift from all the pigs that will have acquired the ability to fly at the same time).
 

Teflon Lettuce

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It means that all bus services will become as perfect as they are in London as they'll all be designed by councillors (who are experts in the subject) and paid for by the boundless amounts of money that will suddenly appear from somewhere as a result of the bill. (Bus services will be slightly less attractive by that time because of the ability to catch a lift from all the pigs that will have acquired the ability to fly at the same time).

I don't think a service using flying pigs would be all that attractive... after all it would only run once every 10 blue moons!
 

RT4038

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It means that all bus services will become as perfect as they are in London as they'll all be designed by councillors (who are experts in the subject) and paid for by the boundless amounts of money that will suddenly appear from somewhere as a result of the bill. (Bus services will be slightly less attractive by that time because of the ability to catch a lift from all the pigs that will have acquired the ability to fly at the same time).

Isn't this boundless money coming from the fat cat bus operators whose ginormous profits are going to seized by the competition in the franchising system?
 

ChathillMan

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Isn't this boundless money coming from the fat cat bus operators whose ginormous profits are going to seized by the competition in the franchising system?
On day one of a franchise that profit disappears though, unless you charge the same fares
 

RT4038

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On day one of a franchise that profit disappears though, unless you charge the same fares

Really? And I thought that the fares will be simplified and made much cheaper, and the services more frequent and comprehensive and there will still be loads left over...... After all, the fat cat bus companies are all making such wondrous profits it must be possible?
 

ChathillMan

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Really? And I thought that the fares will be simplified and made much cheaper, and the services more frequent and comprehensive and there will still be loads left over...... After all, the fat cat bus companies are all making such wondrous profits it must be possible?
See NEXUS for brief history of how to balls up a franchise bid [emoji6]
 

Busaholic

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I've not read one single word on the subject by anyone who knows anything about the running of buses, whether involved in the industry, formerly involved in the industry, or just interested in the subject and an actual user, who thinks this act will achieve anything really worthwhile in the long run (and probably the short run, come to that.) Regrettably it will be the plaything of would-be meglamaniac politicians trying to impress those small parts of the electorate who actually vote in local elections. Factor in these ridiculous mayor figures and disaster beckons!
 

HSTEd

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In the extraordinarily unlikely circumstance that the referendum on a council tax hike actually goes through I could see councils being more interested.
But it won't so it is indeed moot.
 

Mwanesh

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The London model only works there for many reasons.Lack of parking and others.Politicians think there is money in buses .If you look at all the big groups they have operations abroad which are in the annual accounts.So most people think there is lots of money.Even when you look at the areas with municipal companies there are other operators in the towns.
 

ChathillMan

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The London model only works there for many reasons.Lack of parking and others.Politicians think there is money in buses .If you look at all the big groups they have operations abroad which are in the annual accounts.So most people think there is lots of money.Even when you look at the areas with municipal companies there are other operators in the towns.
It's an interesting point re Municipals. I've read rumblings from Notts and Derby based political types that they want control over buses as part of devolution.

They don't realise that NCTX (and Trent) will then be in the same boat as Stagecoach etc. The law of unintended consequences ..
 

ivanhoe

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Problem we have now though is that for most cities and towns, all of the expertise in running bus services lies with the current bus industry. They own the buses, depots and most importantly employ the drivers. I can see bus alliances being useful, such as the proposed Arriva, Stagecoach one in Liverpool. It will be useful to see what the Bill allows in terms of Alliances in respect of the Competition Authority ,which in my view has stifled Bus Transport Systems. Clearly, the London model is not the one to be imposed as I doubt LA's and PTES's have the money for it. Doing nothing though is not a sustainable way forward.
 

HSTEd

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Why does the London model necessarily require more public money than the current one? AIUI all routes are tendered on a net-cost basis through a competitive auction.

So surely a council with no money could run the auctions, specifying the current service level, and obtain a total cost of or near zero from doing so?
 

Deerfold

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Why does the London model necessarily require more public money than the current one? AIUI all routes are tendered on a net-cost basis through a competitive auction.

So surely a council with no money could run the auctions, specifying the current service level, and obtain a total cost of or near zero from doing so?

London bus contracts are all on a Gross cost basis. Net cost contracts only existed for some contracts issued between 1995 and 1998. Meeting or not meeting quality standards can increase or reduce the total contract price by up to +15% or -10%.
 

telstarbox

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It's squeezed through and got Royal Assent today.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../bus-services-bill-changes-explained-12956409


Under a franchised system, like London’s, Greater Manchester authorities would take control of bus planning, with services run under contract by private operators.

Buses account for 79pc of all public transport journeys in Greater Manchester – around 210 million a year.

However, despite a growing population and increased demand on the transport network, bus patronage in Greater Manchester has fallen by over 140 million passenger journeys in the last 30 years.
 

nerd

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This will happen in Greater Manchester. The big five bus operators are certainly intending to test the new legislation in the courts - but so long as the new procedures are workable (and hence less easy to derail as with Nexus in Newcastle), and if TfGM don't mess up (a big 'if' that); then I can see a franchise deal happening.

But it will certainly take a longish time - three years minimum - and TfGM will have to maintain a working relationship with the operators in the meanwhile.

The essential feature of franchising is increased effective competition. Bus deregulation was supposed to deliver competition in allowing bus opertors freedom over fares, routes, frequencies and service standards; but in fact these freedoms have been exploited by the big five to create and maintain barriers to market entry. Hence, the prosepct of franchising is routinely rubbished by the big operators; and welcomed by the smaller ones.

The key question is what TfGM can offer to the big operators to keep them sweet while the process works through; to which the answer seems to be; bus priority investment to relieve congestion along bus routes. Congestion hits the operators bottom-line; but they can't do anything about it without political cover from the Transport Authority. Without such cover, the populist alternative could be the Liverpool/Coventry option of removing bus priority altogether.
 

Tetchytyke

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Indeed - world beating ineptitude!

Interestingly Stagecoach this weekend are cutting the PVR in the city by about 10% and increasing fares. Quite significantly in some cases, much as they try and hide many of the increases behind validity and boundary changes on the Megarider.

Stagecoach's significant profits up here, long a sore point of mine, are not decreasing. They're simply doing it because they can, and because they've got an ageing bus fleet (even taking the new MMCs into account) that they can't keep replacing with castoffs from Scotland.

Interesting how this happened the financial year after Nexus made a pig's ear of bus franchising, innit.
 

Mwanesh

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London gets 900 million in subsidy.It has gone down ti 660million .It may not work elsewhere.People talk of the bus groups making profits last time i checked nearly all if them have vast units outside England .There is going to be a few problems with this bill .In places with council bus companies what will happen should other companies bid for tenders.This has not been thought out correctly.
 

plcd1

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London gets 900 million in subsidy.It has gone down ti 660million .It may not work elsewhere.People talk of the bus groups making profits last time i checked nearly all if them have vast units outside England .There is going to be a few problems with this bill .In places with council bus companies what will happen should other companies bid for tenders.This has not been thought out correctly.

No TfL does NOT get £900m or £660m in subsidy from anyone. Revenue grant from the DfT for *all* operations is now only a couple of hundred million and goes entirely next financial year. All rail modes have to earn operating surpluses from 2020 - only LU does so far. IMO that is the only reasonable view that can be taken about "operational subsidy" paid to TfL. There is separate grant for investment to repair and sustain the tube and DLR networks and smaller scale works at stations and bus stations.

I do wish people would be careful about terminology. TfL raises income from fares, investment grant, a paltry council tax levy, charges for services (incl Freedom Pass income), Crossrail grant (ring fenced), borrowing and a share of business rates. There are political decisions taken about the level of fares and the scope of service offered. Where I will agree with the OP is that the bus network makes an operating loss in the region of £660m but that is funded within TfL's overall income. The decision to sustain that loss is a political one driven by keeping fares pretty low and things like frequencies, hours of operation and the scale of the network pretty high. The Mayor could decide tomorrow that the bus network would be made profitable and it could be done. However the political fall out and consequences for London's economy means it is very unlikely that any Mayor would do it.
 

plcd1

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Interestingly Stagecoach this weekend are cutting the PVR in the city by about 10% and increasing fares. Quite significantly in some cases, much as they try and hide many of the increases behind validity and boundary changes on the Megarider.

Stagecoach's significant profits up here, long a sore point of mine, are not decreasing. They're simply doing it because they can, and because they've got an ageing bus fleet (even taking the new MMCs into account) that they can't keep replacing with castoffs from Scotland.

Interesting how this happened the financial year after Nexus made a pig's ear of bus franchising, innit.

I see I am not the only one to observe Stagecoach's changes in Newcastle. I am quite surprised that the cuts have been as severe as they have. I assume usage in some areas has plunged with no signs of recovery so Stagecoach have decided to cut their losses. Looking in from afar it looks a rather sorry state of affairs given what was once very good bus territory.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I see I am not the only one to observe Stagecoach's changes in Newcastle. I am quite surprised that the cuts have been as severe as they have. I assume usage in some areas has plunged with no signs of recovery so Stagecoach have decided to cut their losses. Looking in from afar it looks a rather sorry state of affairs given what was once very good bus territory.

The idea of "very good bus territory" is now much changed from how it was 20 years ago.

As I have said in the past, the places that used to be "good pub territory" were the big council estates, massive pubs that dealt in beer, fags and casual suspicion with occasional violence. However, there have been changes both in legislation, together with a weakening of spending power, and that has changed that industry markedly. The same is the case with the bus industry and looking back and comparing with the 1980s is not appropriate. In the bus industry, you have areas where the age demographic (e.g. baby boomer central) means an ageing populace, lower economic activity and, of course, insufficient ENCTS remuneration. Then you have places that are simply on their uppers. They have few wage earners and then you have a cut in universal credit; it is these self same areas that were "good bus territory" that are now bearing the brunt of the wider social impact of cuts in welfare spending AND the overall reduction of economic activity. I remember the days of roaming around Teesside on some knackered poppy red National; I was in Stockton and Middlesbrough recently and the whole demeanour of the area is much reduced. There are still the nice boutiques of Yarm but it feels like the home of the Poundshop generally across the area.

Conversely, the idea of good bus territory is increasingly changing from those traditional areas in the large conurbations to specific places where there is the political will to have bus priority. In Bristol in 2015, increasing congestion meant a choice. First decided to protect the timetable and put in 10 additional buses - a £1m hit on the bottom line. They've now taken those out, as the city continues to be choked by the gig economy of Ubers and various courier businesses.

Those areas that are showing some resilience are those that have decent bus priority (double benefit of increasing reliability and minimising cost impact) plus the economic activity (mainly southern England) or where there is a particular market (e.g. the massive growth in the Student market esp University).

The idea that the Buses Bill will magically enable a fundamental improvement in patronage is akin to alchemy. The aim of better publicity, more vehicles, and better connectability is up there with "motherhood and apple pie"; we would all go for that. The idea that it can be achieved with little or no additional money seems to be higher debatable. Not least because we see, in Manchester, a weakening of First's profitability, hit by both the tram and the overall economic malaise in places like Rochdale and Oldham.

I also have a sinister suspicion that this is another Tory way of hollowing out the state. A bit of a dowry to get this through, then cut the central grant and hope that cross subsidy will help; it seldom does.
 

Stan Drews

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No TfL does NOT get £900m or £660m in subsidy from anyone. Revenue grant from the DfT for *all* operations is now only a couple of hundred million and goes entirely next financial year. All rail modes have to earn operating surpluses from 2020 - only LU does so far. IMO that is the only reasonable view that can be taken about "operational subsidy" paid to TfL. There is separate grant for investment to repair and sustain the tube and DLR networks and smaller scale works at stations and bus stations.

I do wish people would be careful about terminology. TfL raises income from fares, investment grant, a paltry council tax levy, charges for services (incl Freedom Pass income), Crossrail grant (ring fenced), borrowing and a share of business rates. There are political decisions taken about the level of fares and the scope of service offered. Where I will agree with the OP is that the bus network makes an operating loss in the region of £660m but that is funded within TfL's overall income. The decision to sustain that loss is a political one driven by keeping fares pretty low and things like frequencies, hours of operation and the scale of the network pretty high. The Mayor could decide tomorrow that the bus network would be made profitable and it could be done. However the political fall out and consequences for London's economy means it is very unlikely that any Mayor would do it.

The fact remains that if the London BUS model is replicated in places like Manchester, then the pro-rata £660m losses which you indicate are (cross)-subsidised from the TfL budget, would need to be supported from somewhere within the TfGM budget. Currently that money doesn't exist, and so far the politicians haven't indicated where on earth it will be found.
 

edwin_m

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The fact remains that if the London BUS model is replicated in places like Manchester, then the pro-rata £660m losses which you indicate are (cross)-subsidised from the TfL budget, would need to be supported from somewhere within the TfGM budget. Currently that money doesn't exist, and so far the politicians haven't indicated where on earth it will be found.

That might be true if the London level of service and fares are replicated. The costs of running the buses don't depend on what operating model is adopted. If extra regulation and co-ordination means service can be made more attractive at relatively little cost then the extra revenue might exceed the extra cost.
 

Tetchytyke

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I see I am not the only one to observe Stagecoach's changes in Newcastle. I am quite surprised that the cuts have been as severe as they have. I assume usage in some areas has plunged with no signs of recovery so Stagecoach have decided to cut their losses. Looking in from afar it looks a rather sorry state of affairs given what was once very good bus territory.

Some of the cuts probably make sense- Westerhope always felt over-served by buses, for example- but I think more of it is pure cynicism from Stagecoach. Some of the services they're reducing include buses to the Metro Centre and to Kingston Park, which feels more like "our customers can't drive, so they'll work around us" than anything else.

It's strange they come at a time when Stagecoach are starting to aggressively compete against Go Ahead on some routes: they've started new express routes from Newcastle to Sunderland and Stockton recently, as well as more services to Cobalt. It feels like cutting the bread and butter to pay for some MD willy waving.
 

Citistar

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It's strange they come at a time when Stagecoach are starting to aggressively compete against Go Ahead on some routes: they've started new express routes from Newcastle to Sunderland and Stockton recently, as well as more services to Cobalt. It feels like cutting the bread and butter to pay for some MD willy waving.

There is a nationwide war of willy waving between Stagecoach and Go-Ahead, which appears to have started in Oxford and has now spread to Swindon with GA's purchase of Thamesdown. Both are trying to injure each other's core income generating services

TheGrandWazoo's comments are also very valid - good bus territory is on the wane in many places. Whole generations of low to middle income families across provincial England have never used public transport and are very unlikely to, at least while private transport remains such a cheap option. In my neck of the woods, the West Country, the only growing market appears to be students. The lower income areas of Bristol have seriously weakening general bus use.
 
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