Bus routes operated by private operators in London before 2000

[Daniel740]

On the London bus route history site it states that prior to 1997 the 398 bus route was privately operated under a London bus agreement:

London Bus Route 398

What does this mean? Was it completely removed from the LT network with it’s own fares? I’m curious because I grew up in Ruislip and can’t remember this route not being part of London buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

On the London bus route history site it states that prior to 1997 the 398 bus route was privately operated under a London bus agreement:

London Bus Route 398

What does this mean? Was it completely removed from the LT network with it’s own fares? I’m curious because I grew up in Ruislip and can’t remember this route not being part of London buses.

There were a few examples where LT didn't want to operate but local firms were permitted to do so under the old licensing regime. I confess I don't recall all the legal details nor all of the various machinations through history.

Somewhere in the vaults of my mind, the 398 was operated by a firm called Scorpio Coaches who used ex NBC Nationals and LHs. They were some sort of continuation of Elms Coaches who ran old Tilling stuff (knackered Bristol LS's) in the mid-late 70s?

I think there was some sort of allowance for firms operating routes that LT didn't want to operate. The most notable being Orpington and District who went bust, the remains being bought out by Tillingbourne who set about developing it, with it subsequently being bought out by the management to create Metrobus.

 

[Daniel740]

There were a few examples where LT didn't want to operate but local firms were permitted to do so under the old licensing regime. I confess I don't recall all the legal details nor all of the various machinations through history.

Somewhere in the vaults of my mind, the 398 was operated by a firm called Scorpio Coaches who used ex NBC Nationals and LHs. They were some sort of continuation of Elms Coaches who ran old Tilling stuff (knackered Bristol LS's) in the mid-late 70s?

I think there was some sort of allowance for firms operating routes that LT didn't want to operate. The most notable being Orpington and District who went bust, the remains being bought out by Tillingbourne who set about developing it, with it subsequently being bought out by the management to create Metrobus.

Would this have meant that services operated under this agreement didn’t accept LT passes?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Would this have meant that services operated under this agreement didn’t accept LT passes?

Can't help you, I'm afraid.

 

[PeterC]

There were a handful of these routes around the periphery of the central area. There were services to County Park Estate in Hornchurch under various company names until 1981

 

[duncombec]

Somewhere in the vaults of my mind, the 398 was operated by a firm called Scorpio Coaches who used ex NBC Nationals and LHs. They were some sort of continuation of Elms Coaches who ran old Tilling stuff (knackered Bristol LS's) in the mid-late 70s?

I think there was some sort of allowance for firms operating routes that LT didn't want to operate. The most notable being Orpington and District who went bust, the remains being bought out by Tillingbourne who set about developing it, with it subsequently being bought out by the management to create Metrobus.

An old British Bus Publishing handbook easy to hand confirms Scorpio were "associated" with Elms, who started a similar route in 1966. It says "From 14th November 1987, as part of the LRT tendering of Harrow area routes, route 398 was started..." I also came across a very brief Google Books result ("London's Buses, the Colourful Era" by Malcolm Batten) which says it was "licensed", and passed to Sovereign from 2 January 1997.

Anyone who has access to LOTS publications of the era (Either TLB or the Review of the Year, neither of which I have for 1987) should be able to say more.

I think they were probably "LLSA" (London Local Service Agreement) routes, or a forerunner thereof, essentially commercial routes operating in what was then London Regional Transport territory.

 

[SECR263]

At one time the 196 was operated by an outfit called Cityrama. They used there own blue ex LT castoffs branded as an LT service by a notice on the front of the bus and operated out of a yard some where near I believe Stewarts Lane. The service reliability was appalling. It was rumoured a bus was jacked up with the wheels running to accumulate mileage. Perhaps untrue? They Company were nicknamed "Bananarama" One feature was that in the lower saloon of some vehicles there were exhausts or dust marks going up the bodywork on the inside by the transverse rear seats. They did not last long. was this a tendered service?

 

[Hophead]

At one time the 196 was operated by an outfit called Cityrama. They used there own blue ex LT castoffs branded as an LT service by a notice on the front of the bus and operated out of a yard some where near I believe Stewarts Lane. The service reliability was appalling. It was rumoured a bus was jacked up with the wheels running to accumulate mileage. Perhaps untrue? They Company were nicknamed "Bananarama" One feature was that in the lower saloon of some vehicles there were exhausts or dust marks going up the bodywork on the inside by the transverse rear seats. They did not last long. was this a tendered service?

Yes it was. At that time, operators were allowed to use their own liveries with the sticker that you refer to on the front of the bus indicating that it was an LRT service.

 

[Statto]

Yes it was. At that time, operators were allowed to use their own liveries with the sticker that you refer to on the front of the bus indicating that it was an LRT service.

Yep this is an example, scroll down to 1987

London Bus Route 196

 

[Deerfold]

Would this have meant that services operated under this agreement didn’t accept LT passes?

That depends on the exact agreement. Many local routes did accept LT/TfL tickets - as time went on and this became uneconomic for more companies they either withdrew the routes or charged commercial fares - TfL took over quite a few of these routes as they were withdrawn (often improving hours/days of operation and frequencies).

 

[Daniel740]

That depends on the exact agreement. Many local routes did accept LT/TfL tickets - as time went on and this became uneconomic for more companies they either withdrew the routes or charged commercial fares - TfL took over quite a few of these routes as they were withdrawn (often improving hours/days of operation and frequencies).

Am I right in thinking route 358 is another one of these routes that started off as a commercial bus route but was then taken over by LT/TfL?

 

[TheManWho]

Am I right in thinking route 358 is another one of these routes that started off as a commercial bus route but was then taken over by LT/TfL?

There was quite a few "commercial" routes run by Metrobus that later became part of the TfL network.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but the 353, 353, 354, 356, 358 and one route that became the R9 were all commercially operated.

Similarly what is now the W19 was part of the old Thamesway 551 that ran from Basildon to Walthamstow. The only difference being the routing between Leytonstone and Walthamstow with the 551 operating the more direct route via Leyton and the W19 going round the back of beyond and Whipps Cross Hospital to Walthamstow

 

[MotCO]

There was quite a few "commercial" routes run by Metrobus that later became part of the TfL network.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but the 353, 353, 354, 356, 358 and one route that became the R9 were all commercially operated.

Similarly what is now the W19 was part of the old Thamesway 551 that ran from Basildon to Walthamstow. The only difference being the routing between Leytonstone and Walthamstow with the 551 operating the more direct route via Leyton and the W19 going round the back of beyond and Whipps Cross Hospital to Walthamstow

The 353 was taken over by Metrobus in September 1983, running between Orpington and East Croydon. It was commercial until August 1986 when it became worked under agreement to LRT (London Regional Transport, the precursor of TfL). There was a deviation to Forestdale on some workings - these were numbered 357. The 351 was also a commercial route with LRT agreement which started in March 1991, from Penge to North Bromley; this was renumbered 354 in July 2002 to avoid confusion with another 351 in TfL territory in Essex; the 354 was also previously used as a commercial Bromley to Croydon variation of the 353.

Metrobus also operated commercial services 352 from April 1994, going between Crystal Palace and Bromley North, 355 from September 1983 between East Croydon and Forestdale, 356 from March 1990 between Biggin Hill and Croydon, 358 from May 1989 between Crystal Palace and Green Street Green via Orpington, and 705 from June 1988 as a commuter service from Biggin Hill to Victoria taken over from Interland Coaches. I believe the 358 utilised bus grant coaches used on commuter service 705 returning from London after the morning peak, and was only two journeys each way. The 358 was amended in November 1992 to run Crystal Palace to Orpington via Green Street Green as an all day service; as an aside, a burst water main in the summer of 2020 near Farnborough Hospital meant that the route reverted to Crystal Palace and Green Street Green via Orpington for about 10 days.

Route R9 was originally the 493, mostly operated by London & Country / Kentish Bus. Metrobus operated a few commercial journeys on Sundays from August 1991 until 1996, I believe, to utilise buses between journeys on the 353.

Source: https://www.metrobus.co.uk/enthusiasts/

 

[PeterC]

There was quite a few "commercial" routes run by Metrobus that later became part of the TfL network.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but the 353, 353, 354, 356, 358 and one route that became the R9 were all commercially operated.

Similarly what is now the W19 was part of the old Thamesway 551 that ran from Basildon to Walthamstow. The only difference being the routing between Leytonstone and Walthamstow with the 551 operating the more direct route via Leyton and the W19 going round the back of beyond and Whipps Cross Hospital to Walthamstow

If you include ex NBC company routes and cross border routes you can add a lot more.

 

[jumble]

On the London bus route history site it states that prior to 1997 the 398 bus route was privately operated under a London bus agreement:

London Bus Route 398

What does this mean? Was it completely removed from the LT network with it’s own fares? I’m curious because I grew up in Ruislip and can’t remember this route not being part of London buses.

These links may be of interest

They describe the 98b that came before the 398

As independent as they come | 1st August 1975 | The Commercial Motor Archive

'As independent as they come' first printed in the 1st August 1975 issue of Commercial Motor

archive.commercialmotor.com

TWO LONDON BUS ROUTES: 98B AND 235

two unique London routes that remained in independent operators hands

www.countrybus.co.uk

 

[Statto]

You had London & Country too before they became Arriva & sold their Surrey operations, i remember 408 West Croydon-Guildford, one of the first routes to receive a batch of new low floor buses.

Eastern National with 151/251 out into Essex mid 90s i remember a 351/451/551 & 751, 151/251 went from Wood Green.

 

[Mr Manager]

I worked for Scorpio Coaches and drove a x crosvile national and a x LCb Lh from memory RPH 110L . A History of the route is here . http://www.countrybus.co.uk/independent/tworoutes.htm

 

[Daniel740]

I worked for Scorpio Coaches and drove a x crosvile national and a x LCb Lh from memory RPH 110L . A History of the route is here . http://www.countrybus.co.uk/independent/tworoutes.htm

And did Scorpio Coaches accept LT Bus passes and Travelcards on the 398?

 

[Mr Manager]

No. Cash only. From memory the fare from northolt Station to Wealdstone was 35p.

 

[PeterC]

You had London & Country too before they became Arriva & sold their Surrey operations, i remember 408 West Croydon-Guildford, one of the first routes to receive a batch of new low floor buses.

Eastern National with 151/251 out into Essex mid 90s i remember a 351/451/551 & 751, 151/251 went from Wood Green.

As a nationalised company taken over by First Group I am not sure that "private" is the right term for ENOC.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Another example of a non TfL service operating wholly within the TfL area (albeit just outside the time frame of this thread) was route 805 operated by Bharat Travel in the early part of the century. This started off as Hayes Grapes to Heathrow T5 via Yeading White Hart and Southall Town Hall, later changing its northern destination to Northolt station.

It was later taken into the TfL network, renumbered 435 and curtailed to start at Southall Town Hall. When T5 opened to the public it still travels between Southall and and T5, but goes via Hounslow West, gaining a further renumbering in the process, now 482.

Bharat Travel incidentally rebranded as Dhillon and are wholly separate from New Bharat, with whom they once shared a garage.

 

[busesrusuk]

There was also a small network of routes numbered in the 600's operated by Tellings in the Feltham area operating out to Stanwell Moor. From memory the buses wore a blue based livery and were all single deckers. Again from memory they were Bedford's

 

[Roger1973]

There was also a small network of routes numbered in the 600's operated by Tellings in the Feltham area operating out to Stanwell Moor. From memory the buses wore a blue based livery and were all single deckers. Again from memory they were Bedford's

Again, the Countrybus website has more on (Telings) Golden Miller's routes around Feltham.

To reply to a few comments - travelcards and bus passes weren't that much of a thing until the early / mid 1980s (other than the 'red rover' day ticket which as far as I can remember wasn't valid on other operators' services) so before then, it wasn't really an issue.

London Country had a number of routes that came a long way in to what is now Greater London - the green bus / red bus dividing lines established in the 1930s didn't quite match the 1965 Greater London Council area - particularly round the Dartford / Bexleyheath patch where current routes including the 401, 428, 492 are derived from former LT country area / London Country routes that got absorbed in to the London Bus network in 1988 when the 'Bexleybus' thing happened. I think the Orpington - Ramsden Estate 493 was unique in being wholly inside Greater London, though.

Similarly, there were a lot of red bus routes that largely fell outside Greater London in the south west corner, although the original plan for the GLC had included boroughs including (what is now) Spelthorne and Epsom, but they resisted joining Greater London.

There is a Capital Transport book 'London Transport Connections, 1945 - 1985' about the non LT routes coming in to the LT area (believe it's out of print now, but bit more info here - other retailers are available.)

 

[Mikey C]

Again, the Countrybus website has more on (Telings) Golden Miller's routes around Feltham.

To reply to a few comments - travelcards and bus passes weren't that much of a thing until the early / mid 1980s (other than the 'red rover' day ticket which as far as I can remember wasn't valid on other operators' services) so before then, it wasn't really an issue.

London Country had a number of routes that came a long way in to what is now Greater London - the green bus / red bus dividing lines established in the 1930s didn't quite match the 1965 Greater London Council area - particularly round the Dartford / Bexleyheath patch where current routes including the 401, 428, 492 are derived from former LT country area / London Country routes that got absorbed in to the London Bus network in 1988 when the 'Bexleybus' thing happened. I think the Orpington - Ramsden Estate 493 was unique in being wholly inside Greater London, though.

Similarly, there were a lot of red bus routes that largely fell outside Greater London in the south west corner, although the original plan for the GLC had included boroughs including (what is now) Spelthorne and Epsom, but they resisted joining Greater London.

There is a Capital Transport book 'London Transport Connections, 1945 - 1985' about the non LT routes coming in to the LT area (believe it's out of print now, but bit more info here - other retailers are available.)

Yes, it was a real improvement when routes like the 492 took over former London Country routes, better frequency and hours, travelcard acceptance

I imagine that there are far more "red" buses now going outside London than "non red" ones coming inside London, especially as TfL buses are so much more frequent and cheaper

 

[philthetube]

Grey Green were operating routes 24 125 168 and 210 from Stamford hill in the 80's all LT fares with LT ticket machines. (Whether this fits your criteria depends on how you define operates)

 

[delt1c]

Sampsons operated the 250 and 317. Normal LT fares and passes on 317 as far as Waltham Cross. However 250 was outside the LT network. What I remember most was Sampson drivers repairing their buses whilst in service, not at the terminus but actually getting out of the cab and repairing them enroute

 

[etr221]

As background, the London Passenger Transport Act 1931 establishing London Transport gave it a 'Special Area' within which it essentially had a monopoly (for local road services) - see here.
Eventually (1950s?) it became possible for 'independent' (non-LT) operators to provide services with LT's permission ("London Bus Agreement"): these were not part of the London Transport (Bus) network (although within it). Quite how that regime developed - in and after the Thatcher era - into what we have now is not something I know about...

As non-LT services, LT fares would not have applied: as mentioned above, apart from the Red (and Twin) rovers (which were, as I recall, quite expensive, and not that widely available or used), pretty well everyone paid individual cash fares on the buses into the 1980s, so this would not have been the big deal that it would have become later.

 

[whoosh]

Grey Green were operating routes 24 125 168 and 210 from Stamford hill in the 80's all LT fares with LT ticket machines. (Whether this fits your criteria depends on how you define operates)

These were tendered out and part of the London Bus network. The buses ran with the LT roundel displayed in the windscreen.

 

[PeterC]

As background, the London Passenger Transport Act 1931 establishing London Transport gave it a 'Special Area' within which it essentially had a monopoly (for local road services) - see here.
Eventually (1950s?) it became possible for 'independent' (non-LT) operators to provide services with LT's permission ("London Bus Agreement"): these were not part of the London Transport (Bus) network (although within it). Quite how that regime developed - in and after the Thatcher era - into what we have now is not something I know about...

As non-LT services, LT fares would not have applied: as mentioned above, apart from the Red (and Twin) rovers (which were, as I recall, quite expensive, and not that widely available or used), pretty well everyone paid individual cash fares on the buses into the 1980s, so this would not have been the big deal that it would have become later.

Rover tickets were never valid on non LT services, neither independents like Upminster and District nor cross boundary routes by the major operators such as Eastern National. I don't know the full history of the routes but the independenty operated services in the Emerson Park area of Hornchrch seem to have been replaced by the short lived London Transport route 256 in 1981.

 

[MotCO]

Yes, it was a real improvement when routes like the 492 took over former London Country routes, better frequency and hours, travelcard acceptance

I imagine that there are far more "red" buses now going outside London than "non red" ones coming inside London, especially as TfL buses are so much more frequent and cheaper

You're probably right, although it depends whether you include commuter coaches in your definition. The only non TfL services I can think of which enters one of the London Boroughs and which is not a commuter coach are Arriva's 477 in Orpington and Stagecoach's 415 in Kingston. There are probably a handful which enter Heathrow (Carousel Coaches, Reading plus others); are there any others?