BUS - Penalty fare

[nomad24]

Hi All,

This morning, I boarded a TFL bus 154 from Waterer Rise stop and touched my contact less on the reader around 920am. I then sat next to my neighbour who was travelling with me. At the next stop, 300 Meters away, a ticket inspected boarded. I presented my card and she said nothing comes up to which I politely said I did touch the card reader and she said you need to phone your bank and see statements. Then she asked for my details, ID, DOB, Address which I provided. Upon asking for my address she said your name does not come up. I said I have been living there for 3 yrs to which my neighbour chimed in. Then again she said are there people with other surnames in the house. I said yes. She again showed me eyes and said are there people living with same name. She then issued me a penalty fare with code 4 - CPC not validated. I didn't see what teh card reader said and neither did the driver prompt me for anything.

I offered to pay the ticket and she said its your responsibility, to which I replied, i couldn't read or see what the reader said as there were people queued behind me and I assumed nothing wrong with driver not mentioning anything. I did ask the driver why he didn't prompt me to which he casually said I can't leave my cab and you didn't let me give a chance when he didn't say a single word. I did enquire if the driver is supposed to let on people who didn't pay or walk in. I have read the big red book for london bus drivers which says to ask the customers to tap again or use another card if one has to travel.

Before this another chap boarded the bus without paying and the driver didn't say anything and the inspector asked the guy to pay, he said didn't have money and was asked to get off.

I will appeal but would like input from the group on how best to do that. The inspector did inform I can appeal and that they will put her and driver remarks on there.

Thanks
Nomad24

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you board the bus at the very start of its journey? Reason I ask is that there is a bit of an issue with drivers opening the doors before they've properly started the trip which caused a similar issue for me some time back (basically I had tapped in at the end of the previous journey rather than the start of the new one and was charged the fare), fortunately the inspector was more reasonable and didn't issue a PF.

Did you definitely get a green light and a single beep? Aside from the above issue it's generally pretty obvious if a tap has failed (you get two beeps and a red light).

 

[nomad24]

Did you board the bus at the very start of its journey? Reason I ask is that there is a bit of an issue with drivers opening the doors before they've properly started the trip which caused a similar issue for me some time back (basically I had tapped in at the end of the previous journey rather than the start of the new one and was charged the fare), fortunately the inspector was more reasonable and didn't issue a PF.

Did you definitely get a green light and a single beep?

No it was not the start of the journey and I didn't notice the green or orange light but did hear a beep.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it was not the start of the journey and I didn't notice the green or orange light but did hear a beep.

Single beep = success, double beep = failure. The difference is fairly obvious.

If you've not fallen foul of the journey start issue I mentioned, I guess you'll just need to pay up if it turns out the fare wasn't debited from your account. If it was debited (it happens overnight), register your card on the TfL site (I think you can again now) and you can send evidence you paid with your appeal. You did use the same card or device both to tap on and for the inspector I assume?

 

[nomad24]

Thankyou Bletchleyite. Will wait to see, if anythingshows up on my American express card. So if nothing comes up on the card - no point appealing is what I am hearing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thankyou Bletchleyite. Will wait to see, if anythingshows up on my American express card. So if nothing comes up on the card - no point appealing is what I am hearing?

That would be my view, but I'm open to suggestions from others on possible technicalities etc!

 

[nomad24]

On second thoughts, I will appeal no harm I guess. In my defense, does it make sense to quote the Big Red book which is the driver guide for ticketing using cashless/contactless cards. It clearly states, for a orange beep, ask the passenger to try another travel card or if they have two cards clashing (if more than one card is there). This clearly did not happen, there was no prompt from the driver. I can also add about unfairness as another passenger who did not even have a card or try to tap was simply asked to get off by the instructor and where I clearly tapped my card and driver said so too, was handed a PF.

 

[furlong]

First did you touch the card directly or did you use a mobile phone with the card loaded onto it?
Second, ask for CCTV from the bus. (Be quick, it might not be kept for long - you might want to make this request in multiple ways including directly to the operator of the bus concerned)
Third, once that CCTV confirms the exact time when you did (or didn't) touch, ask for transaction records from the device you believe you touched (anonymised except for your card) - which should show the transactions before and after yours and explain what actually happened in between.

Indeed refer to the procedure that should have been followed if the touch failed. The basic argument there is that the penalty situation arose due to the failure of one of TfL's agent's to follow procedures correctly and as such it should be a matter for TfL to resolve with that agent. (If a penalty is due to TfL, the bus company ought to pay it.)

 

[nomad24]

Thanks Furlong. I touched the card directly on to the reader and have already requested for CCTV from Bus operator and customer services at TFL. I will request the transaction record additionally.

 

[Mawkie]

The basic argument there is that the penalty situation arose due to the failure of one of TfL's agent's to follow procedures correctly

Surely the basic argument is that it's the passenger's responsibility to ensure they pay for their own journey.

 

[furlong]

Surely the basic argument is that it's the passenger's responsibility to ensure they pay for their own journey.

We are told that they believed that they had done so! When it was pointed out that might not be the case they offered to pay.

No physical ticket is handed to the passenger after touching, The card does not visibly change. There is no way for the passenger to tell.

If you try to argue the passenger should have taken more care to check the light/beep(s) on the machine (and the evidence of how the machine actually responded isn't yet presented), that same argument applies to the driver!

 

[JordR]

I have a bit of understanding for cases where contactless/Oyster readers don't operate a physical barrier. Until the posts here I had no idea that two beeps indicated an error and the light on them isn't that big.

Although from TfL's perspective, I suppose where they're faced with no record of a tap they may suspect most of those cases will not be accidental.

 

[Hadders]

I think your bank statement will be critical here. If that shows that you paid for the journey then that should provide sufficient evidence for an appeal. If it doesn't show that the journey was paid for then I think it will be difficult for an appeal to succeed.