Bus operators lagging behind in technology

[LUYMun]

Some time ago I travelled on Cresta Coaches’ (of Alton) route C41 between Basingstoke and New Alresford, a chance to tick another route off my list. I had seen Cresta’s buses a few times before, and noted that they had the modern Ticketer machines. So imagine my surprise when attempting to purchase a ticket by contactless I was told it was “cash only”. If it wasn’t for a nearby cash machine I would’ve been left behind.

Added to the fact that they have no website, or contact to the operator for that matter, bar the Hants & Surrey Bus Blog to their credit, I had the impression that Cresta wasn’t willing to invest into contactless payments or launch a website. On the one hand, it would stack up the costs, including VAT on contactless payments, which for a small operator will only add to the overwhelming financial costs that might threaten their existence. However, in the past decade there has been a shift away from cash to make smaller-value payments since contactless is perceived to be more convenient, so there’s no excuse not to adapt to the technology, particularly for an operator which runs an extensive network covering east Hampshire (and expanding as of writing).

I understand there are other operators who also run bus services in this manner, such as Bear Buses until recently, who have finally invested in contactless technology but still lack a website. Southampton Mini Link seemed to be another example of being cash-only, though this was only for a few weeks at their start. I wonder if others in this forum share my thoughts about this inconvenience.

 

[miklcct]

I'd say that, because these small operators only have limited routes serving a very limited rural area with very limited riderships, not expecting anyone "foreign" to use their buses, they have no incentive to pay for any improvement which won't save their costs or attract additional revenue. These are community buses which the only purpose is to serve the villagers to allow them to get to town.

Unfortunately in a deregulated environment, there is nothing which can help this situation.

 

[busestrains]

Sussex Coaches (who run the frequent 68 from Horsham to Broadbridge Heath every thirty minutes in each direction) are still cash only and still use ancient Wayfarer Saver ticket machines. As far as i am aware this is probably the most frequent bus route in the UK that is still cash only. All other cash only bus operators seem to be small little community bus operators where 99% of passengers have ENCTS passes or operators of rural routes that run just a few times a day.

Autocar and Kent Coach Tours and Reptons Coaches are all cash only too and they all get some use by ordinary fare paying passengers.

Buses 4 U do not even have ticket machines or issue any tickets at all. Not even any handwritten tickets. You just simply hand your cash to the driver and that is it. If you purchase a Return instead of a Single then the driver just remembers your purchase for the journey back. The drivers also seem to just make up any price on the spot as every time i use them it costs a different price. They never follow the correct route or the correct timetable either especially on the return journeys.

All of these are still cash only:

• Autocar
• Battle Area Community Transport
• Bexhill Community Bus
• Buses 4 U
• Community Transport For The Lewes Area
• Compo Community Bus
• Cresta Coaches
• Handcross & District Community Transport
• Harting Minibus
• Kent Coach Tours
• Midhurst Community Bus
• Reptons Coaches
• Runnymede Community Transport
• Rye & District Community Transport
• Selsey Community Bus
• Sussex Coaches
• Waverley Hoppa
• Wealdlink Community Transport

All of the buses in the Outer Hebrides are still cash only too. The council recently funded the switch from the VIX ERG TP5000 machines to Ticketer machines but they choose the cheaper older Ticketer version that does not accept contactless. So it is still cash only on these islands.

It would be interesting to know how many operators are not using Ticketer machines. Ticketer seems to be used by like 99% of operators these days.

 

[Ridercross]

It would be interesting to know how many operators are not using Ticketer machines. Ticketer seems to be used by like 99% of operators these days.

Yes, most operators particularly large ones seem to use Ticketer, but Init machines are used by National Express West Midlands and Coventry, and as far as I am aware still used by Nottingham City Transport

 

[miklcct]

Yes, most operators particularly large ones seem to use Ticketer, but Init machines are used by National Express West Midlands and Coventry, and as far as I am aware still used by Nottingham City Transport

I'm so annoyed by the machine that a driver needs to tap so many times in order to sell a ticket, making boarding extremely slow. Why don't operators switch to another ticketing technology en-masse?

 

[Flange Squeal]

Sussex Coaches (who run the frequent 68 from Horsham to Broadbridge Heath every thirty minutes in each direction) are still cash only and still use ancient Wayfarer Saver ticket machines. As far as i am aware this is probably the most frequent bus route in the UK that is still cash only. All other cash only bus operators seem to be small little community bus operators where 99% of passengers have ENCTS passes or operators of rural routes that run just a few times a day.

Autocar and Kent Coach Tours and Reptons Coaches are all cash only too and they all get some use by ordinary fare paying passengers.

Buses 4 U do not even have ticket machines or issue any tickets at all. Not even any handwritten tickets. You just simply hand your cash to the driver and that is it. If you purchase a Return instead of a Single then the driver just remembers your purchase for the journey back. The drivers also seem to just make up any price on the spot as every time i use them it costs a different price. They never follow the correct route or the correct timetable either especially on the return journeys.

All of these are still cash only:

• Autocar
• Battle Area Community Transport
• Bexhill Community Bus
• Buses 4 U
• Community Transport For The Lewes Area
• Compo Community Bus
• Cresta Coaches
• Handcross & District Community Transport
• Harting Minibus
• Kent Coach Tours
• Midhurst Community Bus
• Reptons Coaches
• Runnymede Community Transport
• Rye & District Community Transport
• Selsey Community Bus
• Sussex Coaches
• Waverley Hoppa
• Wealdlink Community Transport

All of the buses in the Outer Hebrides are still cash only too. The council recently funded the switch from the VIX ERG TP5000 machines to Ticketer machines but they choose the cheaper older Ticketer version that does not accept contactless. So it is still cash only on these islands.

It would be interesting to know how many operators are not using Ticketer machines. Ticketer seems to be used by like 99% of operators these days.

Reptons Coaches do now accept contactless payment.

 

[175mph]

According to their website, East Yorkshire based Acklams Coaches do not accept card payments: https://acklamscoaches.co.uk/local-service/faretables

We are only able to accept payments by cash on our services

 

[busestrains]

Yes, most operators particularly large ones seem to use Ticketer, but Init machines are used by National Express West Midlands and Coventry, and as far as I am aware still used by Nottingham City Transport

Yes i forgot about those ones. Thinking about it all of Stagecoach still uses the VIX ERG TP5800 machines and i believe that Lothian Buses uses the Wayfarer 6 machines.

Are there any operators other than Sussex Coaches that still use the Wayfarer Saver machines? Are there any operators at all that still use the Wayfarer 3 machines?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2022 ==

Reptons Coaches do now accept contactless payment.

Ah i did not realise they did now. They were still cash only with the Wayfarer TGX200 last time i used them.

What ticket machines have the switched to? I presume they are using Ticketer now?

 

[Roger1973]

I agree that it's a potential minor inconvenience, but ultimately the choices are to have this many marginal local bus services with relatively low tech, or to have fewer services with more high-tech, because the cost of the tech will push the costs up, marginal commercial services will become unviable, and tendered services will become more expensive as prices go up and some operators withdraw from local bus altogether, so councils will have to decide which tendered services to keep and which to cut.

I have not studied it in detail, but would not be at all surprised if the costs for a small operator of investing in this sort of tech are much higher than the potential gain of a tiny number of additional passengers.

There is something of a gap between the shiny happy announcements from one end of the DFT about more high tech and more compulsory bells and whistles like buses having real time kit, and BSIP funding for more and better buses (none of which has actually been handed over yet and may end up not happening after the impending budget) and a reality where operators' costs are increasing fast, other bits of the DFT are constantly trying to cut concessionary reimbursement, passenger numbers aren't (in most cases) back to pre-covid levels, the covid bus support is coming to an end, and councils are facing serious cost pressures and budget cuts.

Ultimately, I'm all for a comprehensive and good quality bus network, but someone has got to pay for it. We usually seem to get governments who don't think it should be them...

 

[Adtrainsam]

It’s also worth noting some operators who claim to accept contactless but don’t on all vehicles. One of my local operators, Stephensons, started using Ticketer pre 2015(!) without the contactless function. Since COVID, all their single deckers had new Ticketer contactless machines but not for the double deckers. One of the drivers tell me they’re having to let quite a few on without paying as they don’t have cash. Surely this can’t be doing them much good? No ticket = no passengers when the council sees the figures on subsidised routes.

 

[Simon75]

Before I sound old fashioned, people should carry cash as backup, in case the card machine has errors, or there are problems with the bank.

 

[WAB]

Before I sound old fashioned, people should carry cash as backup, in case the card machine has errors, or there are problems with the bank.

However, this just adds to the inconvenience of bus use. In a country where using the bus is a right pain in almost every way imaginable, bus companies should be able to accept the dominant method of payment.

 

[Ken H]

Some time ago I travelled on Cresta Coaches’ (of Alton) route C41 between Basingstoke and New Alresford, a chance to tick another route off my list. I had seen Cresta’s buses a few times before, and noted that they had the modern Ticketer machines. So imagine my surprise when attempting to purchase a ticket by contactless I was told it was “cash only”. If it wasn’t for a nearby cash machine I would’ve been left behind.

Added to the fact that they have no website, or contact to the operator for that matter, bar the Hants & Surrey Bus Blog to their credit, I had the impression that Cresta wasn’t willing to invest into contactless payments or launch a website. On the one hand, it would stack up the costs, including VAT on contactless payments, which for a small operator will only add to the overwhelming financial costs that might threaten their existence. However, in the past decade there has been a shift away from cash to make smaller-value payments since contactless is perceived to be more convenient, so there’s no excuse not to adapt to the technology, particularly for an operator which runs an extensive network covering east Hampshire (and expanding as of writing).

I understand there are other operators who also run bus services in this manner, such as Bear Buses until recently, who have finally invested in contactless technology but still lack a website. Southampton Mini Link seemed to be another example of being cash-only, though this was only for a few weeks at their start. I wonder if others in this forum share my thoughts about this inconvenience.

Card payments cost money. The argument is is cheaper than handling cash. Remember, banks charge for large cash deposits.
But if you can pay suppliers or even wages in cash that cost goes away.

If your times are on the local authority website and also on sites like bustimes why bother with a website? OK you could do a basic one with something like WordPress. But then you have to maintain it.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Even those "big" operators (First, Arriva, Stagecoach et al) aren't making best use of technology; not for ticketing but for the route.

For years, motorists have been able to use GPS devices to guide them to a destination. For years, cyclists have been able to create or copy a specific route and place it on a bar-mounted device to guide them at turnings and so on.

Many buses do have GPS tracking; it's what "drives" the real-time passenger information. And modern ticket machines typically have a huge full colour LCD screen. And yet drivers still have to learn routes and/or carry bits of paper with jottings on them to guide/remind them.

Given that a car driver can drive somewhere they have never, ever, been before with a good or perfect degree of accuracy, why, oh why, can't bus routes be used to generate .gpx (or similar) routes for installation in the cab, for the driver to follow? And then we might never be in a situation where a service drops because there is no spare driver who knows the route. In times of staff shortage, the operators could therby easily "leech" personnel from those routes that are so frequent, nobody would notice if one dropped, and deploy them on the otherwise cancelled once-per-hour service.

 

[Geordie driver]

Even those "big" operators (First, Arriva, Stagecoach et al) aren't making best use of technology; not for ticketing but for the route.

For years, motorists have been able to use GPS devices to guide them to a destination. For years, cyclists have been able to create or copy a specific route and place it on a bar-mounted device to guide them at turnings and so on.

Many buses do have GPS tracking; it's what "drives" the real-time passenger information. And modern ticket machines typically have a huge full colour LCD screen. And yet drivers still have to learn routes and/or carry bits of paper with jottings on them to guide/remind them.

Given that a car driver can drive somewhere they have never, ever, been before with a good or perfect degree of accuracy, why, oh why, can't bus routes be used to generate .gpx (or similar) routes for installation in the cab, for the driver to follow? And then we might never be in a situation where a service drops because there is no spare driver who knows the route. In times of staff shortage, the operators could therby easily "leech" personnel from those routes that are so frequent, nobody would notice if one dropped, and deploy them on the otherwise cancelled once-per-hour service.

Drivers have enough on their plate without doing local service runs they have not been route learned on, and are unable to learn fare stages and where the stops are.

The last thing I want as a passenger is a driver unfamiliar with a route looking at a screen when he should be concentrating on driving the bus.

It was a red line for us, if you hadn't learned the route, you didn't drive it, and with good reason.

It's not just learning the route, it's where every stop is and where the fare stages changes are too. I think non route learned drivers are where most bridge strikes happen.

 

[mb88]

I agree that having GPS maps on the ticket machine should never be a replacement for proper route learning. Where it could be handy though is for diversions, particularly unplanned ones, where the control room could update the maps in ‘real time’ to show the diversion. I’m often left scratching my head when control blurt out a list of road names for us to go down that I’ve never heard of.

 

[Geordie driver]

Our company abolished spares years ago, replacing them with leading drivers, effectively permenant spares, and they were expected to know every route.

 

[asb]

I went on the local route in Bromsgrove to Charford Estate a few months ago, which runs every 30 minutes, and the extent of the technology was an ice cream tub on the floor for the driver to put his cash in. If he wanted to get any change from the tub he had to open his exterior cab door to give him head room to look down at it.

 

[_toommm_]

It was a red line for us, if you hadn't learned the route, you didn't drive it, and with good reason.

The big operators where I grew up i.e. First South Yorkshire, and Stagecoach East Midlands, were happy to put drivers on routes with just a piece of paper with the route, or having driven/drove the route only once on their own. I had to guide them countless times round the village, and they had to reverse on small roads when they did take the wrong route.

 

[Statto]

I agree that having GPS maps on the ticket machine should never be a replacement for proper route learning. Where it could be handy though is for diversions, particularly unplanned ones, where the control room could update the maps in ‘real time’ to show the diversion. I’m often left scratching my head when control blurt out a list of road names for us to go down that I’ve never heard of.

Because of an police incident there was an unplanned last minute diversion to one of the routes near my home the other day, GPS wouldn't have picked up on it, the drivers with the knowledge already knew the diversion route, GPS most likely still been advising the drivers to go through the cordoned off part of the route

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because of an police incident there was an unplanned last minute diversion to one of the routes near my home the other day, GPS wouldn't have picked up on it, the drivers with the knowledge already knew the diversion route, GPS most likely still been advising the drivers to go through the cordoned off part of the route

Most consumer GPS devices have the ability to say "road blocked in N metres" and get an automatic diversion. Do these not?

 

[mb88]

Because of an police incident there was an unplanned last minute diversion to one of the routes near my home the other day, GPS wouldn't have picked up on it, the drivers with the knowledge already knew the diversion route, GPS most likely still been advising the drivers to go through the cordoned off part of the route

Yes but what I meant was controllers having the ability to edit the routes in real time when there is an unplanned road closure which would then be displayed on the driver’s console.

 

[fandroid]

I went on the local route in Bromsgrove to Charford Estate a few months ago, which runs every 30 minutes, and the extent of the technology was an ice cream tub on the floor for the driver to put his cash in. If he wanted to get any change from the tub he had to open his exterior cab door to give him head room to look down at it.

Proper hi-tec!

 

[MCR247]

Yes, most operators particularly large ones seem to use Ticketer, but Init machines are used by National Express West Midlands and Coventry, and as far as I am aware still used by Nottingham City Transport

Init are still used by Nottingham City Transport, who accept contactless payment

 

[duncombec]

Sussex Coaches (who run the frequent 68 from Horsham to Broadbridge Heath every thirty minutes in each direction) are still cash only and still use ancient Wayfarer Saver ticket machines. As far as i am aware this is probably the most frequent bus route in the UK that is still cash only.

There are some here who wouldn't consider half-hourly "frequent"! (I wouldn't...) In any case, it only requires one vehicle at once, and as the operator otherwise only offers school services, presumably they haven't thought it very worthwhile for the background costs. (I understand back office costs for Ticketer are extremely expensive)

All other cash only bus operators seem to be small little community bus operators where 99% of passengers have ENCTS passes or operators of rural routes that run just a few times a day.

I think this is the key. They are community bus operations, running with a very limited budget and probably with very little need for contactless passengers. They also usually offer very limited journey opportunities for the "regular" passenger, and in many cases are staffed by volunteer drivers. Some of those you list are actually community transport operators (e.g. Handcross, Harting, Midhurst, Selsey), and it's simply not worth their hassle getting a contactless payment facility for a £1.20 fare a few mornings a week.

Buses 4 U do not even have ticket machines or issue any tickets at all. Not even any handwritten tickets. You just simply hand your cash to the driver and that is it. If you purchase a Return instead of a Single then the driver just remembers your purchase for the journey back. The drivers also seem to just make up any price on the spot as every time i use them it costs a different price. They never follow the correct route or the correct timetable either especially on the return journeys.

All Buses 4U timetables have the fares on them, and they are a simple £1.50 for a single below 4 miles and £2.50 above - unless they have risen since the website was updated, but I would still imagine them to be a set price. As for the route "never being followed correctly", it seems as though the Mole Valley services have a large number of set-down only/request stops, so no surprise they are missed if nobody requests them, and it's also quite commonly the case with shoppers buses that they run drop off only, whether registered as such or not, and however much of a good idea or not that is. I would certainly be cautious at trying to board one anywhere other than the terminus without making sure the company knew I was going to be waiting!

 

[Harpers Tate]

Drivers have enough on their plate without doing local service runs they have not been route learned on, and are unable to learn fare stages and where the stops are.

The last thing I want as a passenger is a driver unfamiliar with a route looking at a screen when he should be concentrating on driving the bus.

It was a red line for us, if you hadn't learned the route, you didn't drive it, and with good reason.

It's not just learning the route, it's where every stop is and where the fare stages changes are too. I think non route learned drivers are where most bridge strikes happen.

I suppose it's better that they have a bit of paper with a "crib sheet" of directions on it, rather than a voice saying .... in 200 yards turn left (etc).

 

[Geordie driver]

I suppose it's better that they have a bit of paper with a "crib sheet" of directions on it, rather than a voice saying .... in 200 yards turn left (etc).

Where did I say that?

I said drivers shouldn't drive routes in service they have not learned.

Crib sheets are part and parcel of the race to the bottom, a race that has got the industry where it is today.

 

[markymark2000]

Some time ago I travelled on Cresta Coaches’ (of Alton) route C41 between Basingstoke and New Alresford, a chance to tick another route off my list. I had seen Cresta’s buses a few times before, and noted that they had the modern Ticketer machines. So imagine my surprise when attempting to purchase a ticket by contactless I was told it was “cash only”. If it wasn’t for a nearby cash machine I would’ve been left behind.

Sadly a number of firms are still using the old Ticketer machines. They are much cheaper now, especially on the 2nd hand market as so many firms upgraded to the new ticketer machines with contactless.

Before I sound old fashioned, people should carry cash as backup, in case the card machine has errors, or there are problems with the bank.

How much cash should some carry around though and how much of that should be in smaller coins? I carry cash as a backup but I also know a number of firms are no change either now (more since Covid) and so I am wary that I don't want to have a tenner and lose it all on a £3 bus fare. Similarly, I don't want to carry around 50 coins so that I can make the exact fare that the driver is after.



Other firms to add to the list are Little Gem, Stotts (Manchester) and Nexus Move. They lease their machines from Transport for Greater Manchester and they refuse to invest in contactless machines and as all routes ran by these 3 firms are tenders (I think under tfgm gets revenue conditions) so they don't care to invest in the ticket machines either.

Arrowebrook Coaches before they shut up shop recently, they used the Wayfarer machines that Arriva used to have. No contactless there.

Cotswold Green in Gloucestershire are cash only.

Aimees in Leek, cash only I believe.

 

[BJames]

Init are still used by Nottingham City Transport, who accept contactless payment

Although I have to say it took them long enough! I can't remember when they started accepting contactless but it was in the last couple of years - three years ago when I was in my first year at uni they were cash only (although granted they do have the app you can pay on, so reducing the difficulty somewhat. All good now and buying tickets on the app really speeds up boarding.

 

[Statto]

Yes but what I meant was controllers having the ability to edit the routes in real time when there is an unplanned road closure which would then be displayed on the driver’s console.

What i'm saying, drivers who are properly route trained & with knowledge of any diversion route, whether planned or not, do not need to have any GPS installed, particularly the extra expense GPS will cost, given operators are struggling for cash flow now.