Bus operators getting rid of return tickets.

[stadler]

Why do so many bus operators keep getting rid of return tickets?

Arriva have just announced that return tickets are being withdrawn in January. Stagecoach have just announced that return tickets are being withdrawn in January. Some (but not all) of the Go Ahead bus companies have just announced that return tickets are being withdrawn in January. So that is three more major bus companies withdrawing them.

Getting rid of return tickets has been done by more and more bus companies over the last two decades. Brighton & Hove and Metrobus both withdrew return tickets (except for journeys outside of the Brighton / Crawley / Horsham / Redhill / Reigate areas) years ago in the early 2000s. Reading Buses withdraw return tickets (except for journeys outside of the Reading area) years ago in the early 2010s. London got rid of return tickets in the late 1990s or early 2000s i think. Also most operators in Birmingham and Manchester scrapped return tickets years ago. There is dozens and dozens of other operators too. It has been gradually happening on lots of bus operators over the past couple decades.

Of course on the railways we now have LNER who got rid of return tickets. So this awful practice is even spreading to the railways now.

It is so annoying. A return ticket is the most popular ticket. The majority of passengers just want one journey from a to b and one journey back from b to a later. I hate being forced to buy two separate single ticket or being forced to buy a day ticket when all i want is a simple return.

Why are more and more bus companies getting rid of return tickets when most passengers want a return journey?

 

[JonathanH]

Reading Buses withdraw return tickets (except for journeys outside of the Reading area) years ago in the early 2010s.

They didn't used to offer them until, I think, Reading Mainline came along in the late 1990s. Isn't the answer that most operators have a day rider cap which only just exceeds the price of a return fare?

Brighton & Hove and Metrobus both withdrew return tickets (except for journeys outside of the Brighton / Crawley / Horsham / Redhill / Reigate areas) years ago in the early 2000s.

From Wednesday, the single fare in the Redhill / Reigate area will be £3, and the relevant Metrorider will be £5.70, so effectively the Dayrider is the return ticket.

The strange thing about transport fares is the balance between people who say 'why isn't a single fare half the price of a return' and those who say 'why don't I get a discount for making a return journey'. It isn't obvious where those should meet in the middle.

 

[stadler]

They didn't used to offer them until, I think, Reading Mainline came along in the late 1990s. Isn't the answer that most operators have a day rider cap which only just exceeds the price of a return fare?

That may be why. Thinking about it lots of the urban areas without returns do have a day ticket that costs just slightly more than two singles. But that still should not be an excuse to get rid of return tickets. Many other bus companies have a day ticket that is just slightly more than two singles but yet they have kept a return that is just slightly cheaper than a day ticket or two singles. I think an option of a return should always be kept. It always feels so annoying to buy a day ticket or two singles when you just want to make a simple return journey.

 

[JonathanH]

It always feels so annoying to buy a day ticket or two singles when you just want to make a simple return journey.

Ultimately, I think the relevant point is the level of the day ticket price, relative to what you think the reasonable return price would be.

 

[Mwanesh]

Return tickets are not wortth it anymore .A day ticket is cheaper in some places.For the West Midlands zone a day ticket at £4.80 for nbus and £5 for an outer zone .

 

[Stan Drews]

It could be down to how the local authorities and DfT view the ‘basket of fares’ when calculating the level of reimbursement due for allowing concession passes to travel for free. Doing away with returns may be to the benefit of the operators within such calculations. However, as I don’t work for an English based operator I don’t know the ins and outs of those discussions. Perhaps one of our learned friends south of the border may be able to advise?

 

[Proposedlines]

Why do so many bus operators keep getting rid of return tickets?

Arriva have just announced that return tickets are being withdrawn in January. Stagecoach have just announced that return tickets are being withdrawn in January. Some (but not all) of the Go Ahead bus companies have just announced that return tickets are being withdrawn in January. So that is three more major bus companies withdrawing them.

Getting rid of return tickets has been done by more and more bus companies over the last two decades. Brighton & Hove and Metrobus both withdrew return tickets (except for journeys outside of the Brighton / Crawley / Horsham / Redhill / Reigate areas) years ago in the early 2000s. Reading Buses withdraw return tickets (except for journeys outside of the Reading area) years ago in the early 2010s. London got rid of return tickets in the late 1990s or early 2000s i think. Also most operators in Birmingham and Manchester scrapped return tickets years ago. There is dozens and dozens of other operators too. It has been gradually happening on lots of bus operators over the past couple decades.

Of course on the railways we now have LNER who got rid of return tickets. So this awful practice is even spreading to the railways now.

It is so annoying. A return ticket is the most popular ticket. The majority of passengers just want one journey from a to b and one journey back from b to a later. I hate being forced to buy two separate single ticket or being forced to buy a day ticket when all i want is a simple return.

Why are more and more bus companies getting rid of return tickets when most passengers want a return journey?

But what about stagecoach Park and Ride Return tickets? Surely those aren't going

 

[Leedsbusman]

A return ticket is the most popular ticket. The majority of passengers just want one journey from a to b and one journey back from b to a later. I hate being forced to buy two separate single ticket or being forced to buy a day ticket when all i want is a simple return.

Why are more and more bus companies getting rid of return tickets when most passengers want a return journey?

In my experience return tickets are far from the most popular. Wherever I have worked they have been outsold by singles tenfold.

 

[158756]

To raise fares without many people noticing. Most return fares would be above £4, so few people will have bought them since the £2 cap for a single started. But with singles going up to £3, a significant number of journeys might still have a return ticket around £5. Withdrawing them forces everyone to pay £6 for two singles.

 

[JKP]

I recall 40 plus years ago all return tickets were priced at twice the price of a single. The only reduction was for a weekly ticket.

 

[robbob700]

Generally return tickets are difficult to implement with "Tap-on, tap-off" ticketing. I personally prefer single tickets, so that if I'm offered a lift home (or if I end up staying the night) I don't feel I've wasted money. With "Tap-on, tap-off" it also works out if a day ticket works out cheaper.

 

[172007]

I simply don't understand this thread. When I use the buses all I want to do is rock up, place my watch on the reader grab a ticket if required and sit down. I sure that 99% of under 40's probably want the same. Faffing about with returns and or day tickets is just mind boggling so last millenia.

let the system sort out the appropriate fare. If two singles is slightly than a return then for the convenience of using my digital debit card then the singles need sorting out through the relevant authorities who negotiate the subsidy levels and can force change.

 

[didbygraham]

For many years discounted return tickets were only available after 9:30 so if you caught the bus to and from work you had to pay for two singles. The return was to try and encourage casual travellers to use the bus after the morning peak.

 

[stadler]

In my experience return tickets are far from the most popular. Wherever I have worked they have been outsold by singles tenfold.

Maybe it varies depending on area. I have driven for multiple independent bus operators in Surrey and Sussex and return tickets were always more popular than single tickets or day tickets. Normally well over half the tickets i sold were return tickets. Perhaps it depends on the area.

To raise fares without many people noticing. Most return fares would be above £4, so few people will have bought them since the £2 cap for a single started. But with singles going up to £3, a significant number of journeys might still have a return ticket around £5. Withdrawing them forces everyone to pay £6 for two singles.

Yes that is what i suspect. It is a nice easy way to get more money without passengers noticing as much. On many of the Arriva and Stagecoach routes (which are getting rid of return tickets) the new two singles of £3 (so £6 total) will be a significant increase. Outside of the urban areas there are no cheaper day tickets.

I recall 40 plus years ago all return tickets were priced at twice the price of a single. The only reduction was for a weekly ticket.

In recent times (well before the £2 fare cap came in to place) most bus operators priced return tickets at exactly 1.5x the single ticket. This is how pretty much all bus companies i have worked for have done it. So for example a £2 single is £3 return or a £4 single is £6 return etc. This has always seemed like a good way to price tickets.

Generally return tickets are difficult to implement with "Tap-on, tap-off" ticketing. I personally prefer single tickets, so that if I'm offered a lift home (or if I end up staying the night) I don't feel I've wasted money. With "Tap-on, tap-off" it also works out if a day ticket works out cheaper.

Brighton & Hove and Metrobus have managed to make return tickets work with the TOTO system. They only sell return tickets for journeys outside of the urban areas but as far as i am aware they are the only operator to do TOTO for returns. The way it works is if for example a single is £2 and a return £3 then it charges you £2 on the outward journey and then charges £1 on the return journey back between the same points. So that proves that return tickets with TOTO is possible if bus operators want to implement it.

 

[ChrisC]

I simply don't understand this thread. When I use the buses all I want to do is rock up, place my watch on the reader grab a ticket if required and sit down. I sure that 99% of under 40's probably want the same. Faffing about with returns and or day tickets is just mind boggling so last millenia.

let the system sort out the appropriate fare. If two singles is slightly than a return then for the convenience of using my digital debit card then the singles need sorting out through the relevant authorities who negotiate the subsidy levels and can force change.

If only it was as simple as that in all parts of the country. In many large urban areas you can just get on the bus and pay with contactless card, phone, watch etc and the system does sort out the appropriate fare. There are also many areas of the country including some cities where this still is not the case. Many bus companies still do not have an automatic daily cap and unless you purchase a day ticket, just placing your watch on the reader would result in you being charged a series of single fares with no cap. It’s not so bad with the £2 cap and even the £3 cap but even then it can soon add up if you have to use more than one bus to complete a journey. Even when a bus company does use the technology to automatically apply a daily cap it doesn't always work if you have to use buses from different companies to complete a journey.

 

[Yorkshireguy]

Stagecoach East Scotland's DayRiders are very good value, but incredibly confusing for non-regulars. So much time is taken at Leuchars rail station asking tourists if they're coming back the same day, explaining what a North East Fife DayRider is and explaining why they can't have a return like on the train. Not ideal when a lot of visitors don't speak English as a first language. Where tap-on-tap-off isn't available, much better fares information is needed at busy bus stops to reduce user friction and dwell times. In this case as well, time could be saved if booking a rail ticket to Leuchars showed a section asking "how about St Andrews Bus instead?".

 

[johncrossley]

Brighton & Hove and Metrobus have managed to make return tickets work with the TOTO system. They only sell return tickets for journeys outside of the urban areas but as far as i am aware they are the only operator to do TOTO for returns. The way it works is if for example a single is £2 and a return £3 then it charges you £2 on the outward journey and then charges £1 on the return journey back between the same points. So that proves that return tickets with TOTO is possible if bus operators want to implement it.

Have a look at Metrobus' fare tables, particularly where a route covers a mix of areas that only have singles and areas that have returns. In the areas where there are returns, single fares are in general a lot more expensive. For example, if you look at the 400, the middle bit of it shows a box where returns aren't valid. As soon as you go outside the box, the single fare jumps dramatically.

https://passenger-line-assets.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/metrobus/MB/400-fares-20240429-054de954.pdf

(fares from 1 January 2025)

Chart Lodge to Copthorne Dukes Head is the longest journey where there are no returns, at £3.60 single, so £7.20 there and back. Getting on one fare stage earlier, the single fare jumps to £5.60 with a return available at £9.30. So whilst it sounds like you are getting a discount with a return, in reality single passengers are paying a lot more and return passengers aren't getting a great bargain, particularly because the 24 hour ticket (on the app) is £8.75 anyway.

Even their shorter distance return tickets don't give that much of a discount over 2 singles. For example, £1.70 single converts to £3.10 return and £2.20 single converts to £4 return.

 

[didbygraham]

Maybe it varies depending on area. I have driven for multiple independent bus operators in Surrey and Sussex and return tickets were always more popular than single tickets or day tickets. Normally well over half the tickets i sold were return tickets. Perhaps it depends on the area.


Yes that is what i suspect. It is a nice easy way to get more money without passengers noticing as much. On many of the Arriva and Stagecoach routes (which are getting rid of return tickets) the new two singles of £3 (so £6 total) will be a significant increase. Outside of the urban areas there are no cheaper day tickets.


In recent times (well before the £2 fare cap came in to place) most bus operators priced return tickets at exactly 1.5x the single ticket. This is how pretty much all bus companies i have worked for have done it. So for example a £2 single is £3 return or a £4 single is £6 return etc. This has always seemed like a good way to price tickets.


Brighton & Hove and Metrobus have managed to make return tickets work with the TOTO system. They only sell return tickets for journeys outside of the urban areas but as far as i am aware they are the only operator to do TOTO for returns. The way it works is if for example a single is £2 and a return £3 then it charges you £2 on the outward journey and then charges £1 on the return journey back between the same points. So that proves that return tickets with TOTO is possible if bus operators want to implement it.

Plymouth Citybus managed to make it work with return fares too. Worked well for me when I returned to office working one or two days a week. Meant I didnt have to commit to bus both ways. Last year they changed their fare structure so a single was £2, a return was £4 and a day rider was £6. so TOTO was based on the number of journeys in the day which were then capped at £6. It works the same for 2025 but costing quite a bit more! I have just this evening purchased five set of £5 day riders" while still at 2024 prices. so my day riders tickets work out at £4.80 each - quite a saving on £6 return. I have a year to use them.

 

[johncrossley]

London got rid of return tickets in the late 1990s or early 2000s i think.

I don't remember London buses ever having return tickets. I've got a leaflet showing fares from 5 January 1997 and there is no mention of return bus fares. Single fares varied from 50p to £1.20.

 

[Simon75]

Have coaches always sold singles not returns?

 

[CN12 AWU]

Most areas now go to the £3 single fair the return and day rider be same price

 

[Statto]

In Merseyside most routes in Merseyside don't have return fares, the ones that do tend to be on cross boundary routes.

 

[route101]

Stagecoach East Scotland's DayRiders are very good value, but incredibly confusing for non-regulars. So much time is taken at Leuchars rail station asking tourists if they're coming back the same day, explaining what a North East Fife DayRider is and explaining why they can't have a return like on the train. Not ideal when a lot of visitors don't speak English as a first language. Where tap-on-tap-off isn't available, much better fares information is needed at busy bus stops to reduce user friction and dwell times. In this case as well, time could be saved if booking a rail ticket to Leuchars showed a section asking "how about St Andrews Bus instead?".

Same at McGills but without the tourists, some drivers will say a day ticket is cheaper but you get other drivers that will sell you what you asked for.

 

[mangad]

Interestingly in December High Peak put out a thing on their website saying "All point to point tickets are being withdrawn, with the exception of the Day Returns"! I assume they mean day singles, not returns.

They put a FAQ on their website about the changes, which include their reasoning:

Q: Why are the ‘point to point’ tickets being withdrawn?

A: We have simplified the ticket offering by creating four tiers of tickets: Buxton zone, Macclesfield
zone, North Derbyshire zone, and Peak Network (all zones). This allows passengers to make unlimited
journeys in the area they choose at a fixed price, rather than just between two points. It also means
 that we can increase security by having QR codes on tickets, which is not possible with point to point 
tickets as these need to be manually checked by the driver.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Return tickets haven't really been a thing in Sheffield for many years, generally the all day pass has been priced to offer a saving compared with 2 singles for longer journeys

 

[Tetchytyke]

Returns haven't been a thing in urban areas for at least 20 years. First Calderdale were one of the last operators in West Yorkshire to still offer returns and they went in about 2006 IIRC.

Outside of urban areas the fare caps mean two singles is going to be less than a return used to be. Given the fare cap is already significantly below what commercial fares used to be on rural and inter-urban buses, I can't see any cause for complaint here. Context: a return on the 685 from Newcastle to Carlisle was about eight quid fifteen years ago!

Interestingly in December High Peak put out a thing on their website saying "All point to point tickets are being withdrawn, with the exception of the Day Returns"! I assume they mean day singles, not returns.

They put a FAQ on their website about the changes, which include their reasoning:

I think they mean that they're getting rid of point-to-point tickets which require a change of bus. So you either buy a single on the bus or you buy a day ticket.

They have separately advertised that their single fare is going up to £3:

Single and Return fares

From 1st January 2025 we are increasing the price of single and return fares across our network. The £3 fare cap scheme means that no single fare will cost more than £3.

Day, Week and Four-Week tickets

Prices of our day, weekly and four-weekly tickets remain unchanged, offering great value travel across the Peak District.

As it stands, the all-network day ticket is discounted to £6 at the minute and so it is the same as two singles. Local area day tickets seem to be £5 which is cheaper than two singles.

But goodness me that explanation on their website is terrible. It does sound like they're abolishing singles.

 

[GusB]

Around here, return tickets are only useful if both legs of the journey are on different days. For a local trip into town, a period return would cost me £11.30, which gives a slight saving on the cost of two single fares (£5.90 x 2 is £11.80). If I was going out and back on the same day, a day ticket is far better value at £7.80. If I did ask for a return, it's very likely that the driver will ask if I'm coming back on the same day and offer me the day ticket instead.

If I was to go further to Aberdeen, for example, I'd be £36.60 for two day tickets; a good bit cheaper than having period returns for each leg of the same journey (£42.70).

There's not really much point in having return tickets, for me anyway. The day return was scrapped in favour of the dayrider and the fact that I can use it for additional journeys is a bonus.

 

[mangad]

I think they mean that they're getting rid of point-to-point tickets which require a change of bus. So you either buy a single on the bus or you buy a day ticket.

Didn't even know they did such a thing!

 

[Ediswan]

Can the app-based barcode ticket systems (and the onboard systems) handle a return - valid for two journeys (only) ? All the fares Arriva sell that way for Stevenage are either singles, or 'period' tickets, daily and above.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Returns haven't been a thing in urban areas for at least 20 years

I mean that's just blatantly not true given bristol has had them right up until now.

Can the app-based barcode ticket systems (and the onboard systems) handle a return - valid for two journeys (only) ? All the fares Arriva sell that way for Stevenage are either singles, or 'period' tickets, daily and above.

The way First dealt with it in Bristol was that by buying a return fare on the app you'd get two barcoode tickets.