Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[kevjs]

Nottingham has already had it's EV fleet, accidently, disabled after a faulty software update!

Updates: Software update fails taking electric buses off the road across Nottingham | West Bridgford Wire

A software update has failed affecting services on which single deck electric buses are used. Featured

westbridgfordwire.com

No phased rollout seems to be very odd too.

 

[Mikw]

Nottingham has already had it's EV fleet, accidently, disabled after a faulty software update!

Updates: Software update fails taking electric buses off the road across Nottingham | West Bridgford Wire

A software update has failed affecting services on which single deck electric buses are used. Featured

westbridgfordwire.com

No phased rollout seems to be very odd too.

It's like Windows Updates!

 

[Tom Gallacher]

It's like Windows Updates!

Why would they need to be updated? If it ain't broke.

 

[MotCO]

Why would they need to be updated? If it ain't broke.

Why does Windows get updated? Enhancements and improved security presumably.

 

[Mollman]

Why would they need to be updated? If it ain't broke.

Unfortunately with software things are constantly changing. I once failed to update plugins to a website for too long then they wouldn't update as the version used was too old, I couldn't see anything wrong with it myself but I am sure the software people knew why it needed updating.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Unfortunately with software things are constantly changing. I once failed to update plugins to a website for too long then they wouldn't update as the version used was too old, I couldn't see anything wrong with it myself but I am sure the software people knew why it needed updating.

What are they updating though? If the bus is working when it enters service why do they need to constantly update the software. I'm not a software expert but it seems to me that if they are always needing to "update" then it isn't fit for purpose in the first place. What security issues does a service bus have that need updated?

 

[Spsf3232]

What are they updating though? If the bus is working when it enters service why do they need to constantly update the software. I'm not a software expert but it seems to me that if they are always needing to "update" then it isn't fit for purpose in the first place.

Car manufacturers do this all the time, you used to get a software update at service time but now a lot of modern cars are done over the air same as this.

Faults do get found and fixed developed as products age and miles get put onto them. I know Yutong can remote access vehicles for diagnostics and can even get reports about faults before even the operator knows about them. It's part of the manufacturer guarantee and servicing

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Car manufacturers do this all the time, you used to get a software update at service time but now a lot of modern cars are done over the air same as this.

Faults do get found and fixed developed as products age and miles get put onto them. I know Yutong can remote access vehicles for diagnostics and can even get reports about faults before even the operator knows about them. It's part of the manufacturer guarantee and servicing

Fair enough but maybe there is too much technology within a bus chassis nowadays if this can happen. A whole fleet being disabled is a step too far for any operator.

 

[kevjs]

What are they updating though? If the bus is working when it enters service why do they need to constantly update the software. I'm not a software expert but it seems to me that if they are always needing to "update" then it isn't fit for purpose in the first place. What security issues does a service bus have that need updated?

Jaguar managed to increase the urban range of their I-Pace by about 10% a few years back though a series of software updates which maximised efficiency - based on learnings from Formula E. https://sustainabilitymag.com/articles/formula-e-shaping-future-electric-cars

Also modern EVs are connected to up/download telemetry data to monitor the health of the vehicle (and provide the mechanics with advanced warning of issues that can be fixed before they become faults), power Realtime displays, provide control with positioning of the vehicle, transmit contactless payment details to the back office, provide passenger WiFi, uploading CCTV footage after an incident etc. As soon as something is "connected" (even via a closed VPN and different functionality on it's own VLANS) you need to ensure that security updates are applied to ensure exploits don't allow allow nefarious people to compromise and disable / take control of the vehicle.

The extra flexibility inevitably comes with additional attack vectors - even if they were totally disconnected from the internet, it would be possible to get malware onto the laptops used by the mechanics and compromised vehicles that way.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Jaguar managed to increase the urban range of their I-Pace by about 10% a few years back though a series of software updates which maximised efficiency - based on learnings from Formula E. https://sustainabilitymag.com/articles/formula-e-shaping-future-electric-cars

Also modern EVs are connected to up/download telemetry data to monitor the health of the vehicle (and provide the mechanics with advanced warning of issues that can be fixed before they become faults), power Realtime displays, provide control with positioning of the vehicle, transmit contactless payment details to the back office, provide passenger WiFi, uploading CCTV footage after an incident etc. As soon as something is "connected" (even via a closed VPN and different functionality on it's own VLANS) you need to ensure that security updates are applied to ensure exploits don't allow allow nefarious people to compromise and disable / take control of the vehicle.

The extra flexibility inevitably comes with additional attack vectors - even if they were totally disconnected from the internet, it would be possible to get malware onto the laptops used by the mechanics and compromised vehicles that way.

Oh how I miss the days of starting handles when life was simple.

 

[citybus2500]

Oh how I miss the days of starting handles when life was simple.

and at a very basic level, it is possible for someone at the garage to see the charge left on any bus at any given time and take any action in advance if it looks likely a bus won't get to the end of its board.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

Rather interesting news is that the Wrightbus NewPower division is to repower Metroline's Optare MetroDecker fleet: https://www.route-one.net/news/newpower-to-debut-electric-to-electric-repower-on-metrodecker-ev/

(And to show how poor things have got, just five of the 28 are out in service today: https://lvf.io/#LDN|ML OME*)

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Mcgills have the ability to see a huge amount of data on there yutongs , Ralph was doing a tour a few years ago and explained they can see fluid levels ,battery charge etc and they can often send a spare bus to meet a faulty bus before the driver knows there's a fault

 

[Trainman40083]

Mcgills have the ability to see a huge amount of data on there yutongs , Ralph was doing a tour a few years ago and explained they can see fluid levels ,battery charge etc and they can often send a spare bus to meet a faulty bus before the driver knows there's a fault

Impressive... Taking action before it gets serious.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Mcgills have the ability to see a huge amount of data on there yutongs , Ralph was doing a tour a few years ago and explained they can see fluid levels ,battery charge etc and they can often send a spare bus to meet a faulty bus before the driver knows there's a fault

It's one thing to have remote monitoring - it's something completely different to have remote control.

 

[mernrith]

As someone from Hong Kong, it's a bit surprising that MCV B8Ls that were originally designed for us (and sg) have been sold across the globe. I wonder how they perform in UK?

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Ralph was doing a tour a few years ago and explained they can see fluid levels ,battery charge etc

In the olden days we called this a dashboard. You were able to see how much fuel you had, how hot the engine was, the oil pressure and the air pressure in the tanks - they were amazing.

 

[Stan Drews]

In the olden days we called this a dashboard. You were able to see how much fuel you had, how hot the engine was, the oil pressure and the air pressure in the tanks - they were amazing.

Would’ve been some dashboard if you could see it from the depot!

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Would’ve been some dashboard if you could see it from the depot!

Still worked if your Wifi was down though - pretty foolproof. Seriously though, whilst it seems a fantastic leap forward that you can remotely diagnose any issues (or potential ones), you are still reliant on a communication system that is not without its faults. How do these systems affect the sell on value of the bus? I assume that you need some special equipment to monitor these buses. Is this equipment in one location or at every depot the buses are stationed at? If you decided to replace your fleet with another marque are you able to transfer the software etc? Is there a subscription service for access to the systems? If so any potential second hand operator would probably baulk at that. When the Borismasters came into service they were hailed as the future of public transport. Do you think that any of these will ever see service at anyone other than in London? Probably not.

Too many ifs and buts for my liking. Just my opinion but I've been in the transport industry for over 50 years and I don't think this is a step forward. Each to their own though.

 

[nick291]

As someone from Hong Kong, it's a bit surprising that MCV B8Ls that were originally designed for us (and sg) have been sold across the globe. I wonder how they perform in UK?

Reasonably well, though it's only sold on MCV EvoSeti bodywork now that Alexander Dennis and Wright have discontinued their bodies for that chassis type.

 

[PG]

In the olden days we called this a dashboard. You were able to see how much fuel you had, how hot the engine was, the oil pressure and the air pressure in the tanks - they were amazing.

In the even older days some (most?) buses didn't have a fuel guage so the first the driver knew of it was a loss of power promptly followed by the bus grinding to a halt!

 

[mernrith]

Reasonably well, though it's only sold on MCV EvoSeti bodywork now that Alexander Dennis and Wright have discontinued their bodies for that chassis type.

It's rather a stepup imo - Gemini 3s were less liked than their predecessors due to built quality and seat choice, and the only badge of ADL-built B9TL phased out earlier this year after 2 decades of service. MCVs rattled less, and the facelift version, similar to the BZL does look nice.

Would also like to kindly ask if anyone knew whether Volvo are building tri-axle BZLs? So far as I know both BYD and ADL both can't last a whole summer day's of work. Not saying that competition would bring direct success, but at least there's something new we may try out with...

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Still worked if your Wifi was down though - pretty foolproof. Seriously though, whilst it seems a fantastic leap forward that you can remotely diagnose any issues (or potential ones), you are still reliant on a communication system that is not without its faults. How do these systems affect the sell on value of the bus? I assume that you need some special equipment to monitor these buses. Is this equipment in one location or at every depot the buses are stationed at? If you decided to replace your fleet with another marque are you able to transfer the software etc? Is there a subscription service for access to the systems? If so any potential second hand operator would probably baulk at that. When the Borismasters came into service they were hailed as the future of public transport. Do you think that any of these will ever see service at anyone other than in London? Probably not.

Too many ifs and buts for my liking. Just my opinion but I've been in the transport industry for over 50 years and I don't think this is a step forward. Each to their own though.

The buses still have a dashboard and all that information is still available for the driver but now the supervisors at the depot are able to see it and deal with it. Few drivers understand what the dashboard is actually telling them (& most buses I drove that had a fuel gauge didn't have it working) that having the information there is less useful - I have lost count of the number of times I have heard of an engine failure made worse by a driver pushing on after the warnings were up.

I don't think there is any special equipment required in the depot to access and manage this data, it is simply a programme which can probably be hosted in the cloud so you just need an internet connected computer and a log-in to the account which will probably be paid for by subscription long term though the supplier may see this as a promotional item that it is better to offer free to support spending on more expensive things like official parts. As Yutong have indicated you don't need this capability to run the buses, they have said if operators are concerned they can just remove the sim from the bus, it is an extra piece of management information to allow a more effective management of the vehicles as otherwise you are relying on drivers to tell you what it is saying and going out the bus and looking yourself. Each manufacturer will have their own system to manage their own information to protect that from unauthorised access.

The concerns you highlight are more relevant around the general maintenance issue but even modern diesel buses need specialist computer programs to allow proper maintenance to be carried out and those are more necessary to keeping the vehicle roadworthy and do come at a significant cost and specialist training for technicians - but much of this is caused by all the electronics necessary to meet modern safety & emissions legislation, is just as applicable to your car and cannot be avoided these days.

I'm not sure many professionals outside London were hailing the Borismaster as the future of public transport, it was London trying to claim it was something more than it was to justify what they had spent on it, the 3-door layout alone limits it where most people buying old deckers are doing so for schools and so only want one door for student control issues as much as anything else and without the 3-door layout the Borismaster is simply a standard hybrid bus with a compromised interior layout.

 

[Man of Kent]

So far as I know both BYD and ADL both can't last a whole summer day's of work. Not saying that competition would bring direct success, but at least there's something new we may try out with...

A quick check on Bustimes of some of Stagecoach Oxford's new generation ADL E400EVs shows that they are quite capable of running up to 21 hours a day on a single charge.

 

[mernrith]

A quick check on Bustimes of some of Stagecoach Oxford's new generation ADL E400EVs shows that they are quite capable of running up to 21 hours a day on a single charge.

Was talking about E500EVs in HK, sorry for the misconception.

 

[ZJ517]

Was talking about E500EVs in HK, sorry for the misconception.

You will struggle to get an answer on that one, on a UK-based forum where the type does not operate in this country.

As for the BZL, the UK deckers supposedly have less range than Wrightbus/ADL/Chinese offerings based on Zemo certification data, so I doubt it will do any better in tri-axle form without significant battery/system upgrade.

 

[N1]

Would also like to kindly ask if anyone knew whether Volvo are building tri-axle BZLs?

I am not aware of Volvo offering a tri-axle BZL, only tri-axle BZR for high-floor coaches.

However, Wrightbus are building their own Tri-axle double decker for far east market, and most the Chinese manufacturers have their own now as well, not just BYD.

 

[mernrith]

You will struggle to get an answer on that one, on a UK-based forum where the type does not operate in this country.

As for the BZL, the UK deckers supposedly have less range than Wrightbus/ADL/Chinese offerings based on Zemo certification data, so I doubt it will do any better in tri-axle form without significant battery/system upgrade.

Not asking for answers upon the range of E500EVs here, but thanks for the reply on BZLs.

I am not aware of Volvo offering a tri-axle BZL, only tri-axle BZR for high-floor coaches.

However, Wrightbus are building their own Tri-axle double decker for far east market, and most the Chinese manufacturers have their own now as well, not just BYD.

The Wright sample bus has been seen doing some silent tests over the past few weeks in HK. However not many Chinese manufacturers do make RHD tri-axles, afaik only CRRC and BYD does.

 

[N1]

The Wright sample bus has been seen doing some silent tests over the past few weeks in HK. However not many Chinese manufacturers do make RHD tri-axles, afaik only CRRC and BYD does.

Good to know on the Wright sample. Do Yutong not offer U12DD as RHD, I am not sure?

 

[mernrith]

Good to know on the Wright sample. Do Yutong not offer U12DD as RHD, I am not sure?

Just checked and saw a sample built to Singapore specs and delivered, but haven't offered any to HK yet.