Bus links fully integrated with rail

[Meerkat]

It's not officially recognised, but bustimes.org is excellent for, er, bus times.

But I've never heard of it and I would be wary of picking one off google and hoping it is up to date and legit.
Hence needing either an official one or a 'DfT approved' label and having that heavily promoted.
Is there an official database that all bus companies have to keep updated - giving a golden source like that which RTT etc use for the railway?

An integration that is needed is much better bus stops for stations - really clear signposting and better standards for waiting/info etc. Make it more like another platform on the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An integration that is needed is much better bus stops for stations - really clear signposting and better standards for waiting/info etc. Make it more like another platform on the station.

Agreed. Ironically at Betws y Coed where it's actually called platform 2, it's hidden round the back in the car park. The prominent coach parking area right in front of the station is where that one should be.

 

[fandroid]

It's less about fares and more about timetables. If people search for something in a planner and it doesn't come up they assume it's not served.

It's a shame we don't have a 9292ov equivalent in the UK - Traveline was never really successful in that way. You can use Google Maps but I think there is less trust than an official site.

I have found the UK Bus Checker app to be really quite good at giving full public transport itineraries. In spite of its name, it always covered rail in GB, and in the latest version covers trams too. Although it was always a complete mystery to me why it was previously very patchy on the latter.

The app takes a bit of practice to utilise fully but once I'd mastered it, it gave me the confidence to rely on bus services way out beyond my normal home territory, most notably in the Scottish Highlands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the key is (as Meerkat says) it being official, though. Traveline and Transport Direct were attempts on that but they weren't very good. There are plenty of unofficial ones - more basic ones like bustimes.org plus fancy planners like Google Maps.

 

[Meerkat]

I think the key is (as Meerkat says) it being official, though. Traveline and Transport Direct were attempts on that but they weren't very good. There are plenty of unofficial ones - more basic ones like bustimes.org plus fancy planners like Google Maps.

Is there an official data source that bus companies must update, or is it all voluntary?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there an official data source that bus companies must update, or is it all voluntary?

I believe they have to provide data into the feeds that bustimes.org uses, which is why it's accurate.

 

[Meerkat]

I believe they have to provide data into the feeds that bustimes.org uses, which is why it's accurate.

Is bustimes.org commercial with ads etc or something the DfT could sponsor and advertise? Maybe they could use the money they waste on pandering to ridiculous rail re-opening schemes....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is bustimes.org commercial with ads etc or something the DfT could sponsor and advertise? Maybe they could use the money they waste on pandering to ridiculous rail re-opening schemes....

It's ad funded, yes. It's not clear who owns it.

 

[fandroid]

I find bustimes.org to be incomplete. It doesn't even seem to capture the official names of bus-stops. When I try out a route from one stop to another it rather hilariously lists the journey as England to England. UK Bus Checker has always had that covered accurately. There does seem to be a national database of bus stop names with a unique code for every one.

Maybe I just haven't played with it enough!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find bustimes.org to be incomplete. It doesn't even seem to capture the official names of bus-stops.

Yes, it does. The data comes from the Traveline and NaPTAN databases which doesn't know them by any other means! They don't manage any of their own data.

100% of the bus stop names in bustimes.org are the official ones; it has no means of doing anything else!

When I try out a route from one stop to another it rather hilariously lists the journey as England to England.

A route? It isn't a journey planner, you just use it to browse through traditional timetables. Are we using the same site?

 

[fandroid]

Deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn't bustimes.org. Bustimes.org is a website which displays traditional timetables and doesn't have an app nor a journey planner nor so far as I know any interest in providing either of those things, nor does it do anything with rail at all. If that app is called bustimes.org, someone's nicked the name and uses it as a data feed for a third rate journey planner.

 

[fandroid]

That isn't bustimes.org. Bustimes.org is a website which displays traditional timetables and doesn't have an app nor a journey planner nor so far as I know any interest in providing either of those things, nor does it do anything with rail at all. If that app is called bustimes.org, someone's nicked the name and uses it as a data feed for a third rate journey planner.

Sorry folks, I was fooled by the App showing as "Bus Times". After delving a bit deeper I found It's produced by Bus Expert Ltd.

However, I really don't think the bustimes.org product that you describe is really much use for encouraging new people to use buses and in the spirit of this thread, to combine train and bus journeys.

I still commend a real-time journey planner like UK Bus Checker. One of the horrors of bus journeys, especially rural ones, is standing at a stop through the timetabled bus arrival time and wondering if the bus is a figment of the operator's imagination. If the realtime function is on, then there is potential reassurance that the bus is just late, and will turn up.

Again, there's a massive virtue in being able to connect various modes of transport, which is what this app and Google Maps both do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, I really don't think the bustimes.org product that you describe is really much use for encouraging new people to use buses and in the spirit of this thread, to combine train and bus journeys.

I wouldn't necessarily say it was, but it's really valuable for people who understand buses, a bit like brfares.com and Realtime Trains are.

Google Maps is probably it if you want a journey planner, as it's clever enough to understand things like walking routes as well.

 

[miklcct]

The problem with journey planners is that they don't tell me how many routes / how frequent the routes are at a specific place. Only traditional maps and timetables can tell me that.

For example, a journey planner routing me onto a two-hourly bus route is not what I want if I don't know the exact time I want to travel.

 

[zwk500]

The problem with journey planners is that they don't tell me how many routes / how frequent the routes are at a specific place. Only traditional maps and timetables can tell me that.

For example, a journey planner routing me onto a two-hourly bus route is not what I want if I don't know the exact time I want to travel.

Google does give you the different options and how often

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with journey planners is that they don't tell me how many routes / how frequent the routes are at a specific place. Only traditional maps and timetables can tell me that.

For example, a journey planner routing me onto a two-hourly bus route is not what I want if I don't know the exact time I want to travel.

Hence bustimes.org. Traveline used to give you traditional timetables if you wanted too.

 

[fandroid]

The problem with journey planners is that they don't tell me how many routes / how frequent the routes are at a specific place. Only traditional maps and timetables can tell me that.

For example, a journey planner routing me onto a two-hourly bus route is not what I want if I don't know the exact time I want to travel.

I agree that good maps are great for checking out potential routes if your journey is still in the early planning stage.

The sort of journey planners I have used will often offer up several alternative sets of connections and happily deal with the 2 hour service interval, if that's all there is!
Hi
What I was thinking of when starting this thread was to integrate some bus routes into the rail network, so that the general certainty* of rail travel could reach places beyond the existing rail network. Route maps would be part of any best practice associated with that. One problem with posting on here is that most forum members have a much greater level of transport expertise than around 95% of the public! I'd like to see some of that inexperienced majority making much more use of the whole public transport system, and am just posing thoughts on how that might be achieved.

Never underestimate how alien bus travel can seem to a vast number of people.

*The sort of certainty we had before Avanti and TPE decided to trash rail's reputation.

 

[BRX]

I was quite impressed, last year, with what you can now do in Germany using the standard DB app, which will let you plan and pay for multi-mode journeys. As an example here is a journey from a street address in Stuttgart to a rural location some distance from the city. The screenshot is from the DB website but the app gives similar information. It is quite capable of showing a journey with urban train, two regional/long distance trains and two buses, and giving one fare for the whole journey.



I used this to make several journeys, during a relatively brief stay. A couple of these journeys, to locations well outside town, in times gone by I might not have bothered attempting just because of the time involved in researching timetables manually - then trying to work out what the fare options were, worrying about how I would need to pay on the bus legs, and so on. They are the sort of journeys that someone with a car might always have made, but that a public transport user (visiting and unfamiliar with local systems), previously might not.

The significant aspects, which we are missing in the UK:

- I could easily plan the entire journey, using an app that I already had on my phone, and one that I could feel was reliable (because it's provided by the national rail operator, not some kind of third party service).
- I could buy the ticket, for the entire journey, in the app on my phone, really easily, and I could use that digital ticket for the entire journey
- Bus and train times are, generally, indicated
- Bus stops, even in rural areas, are easily identified, and generally have up to date timetable information posted at them - something that helps greatly with confidence when you arrive at an unfamiliar location and are waiting for a low-frequency bus. This is one pretty simple thing that is so often missing in the UK. It can lead to worry about pretty basic stuff, like am I actually at the bus stop going in the right direction for where I want to go, and is this actually a live bus stop.

 

[Meerkat]

Revenue allocation would be interesting.....
I guess it would work better with digital tickets (how was that checked on the bus?) - paper tickets would be a mare for trying to check validity.
In the Stuttgart example is that really DB or the DB app but the equivalent of a PTE running the trains and buses (via contractors)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Revenue allocation would be interesting.....
I guess it would work better with digital tickets (how was that checked on the bus?) - paper tickets would be a mare for trying to check validity.
In the Stuttgart example is that really DB or the DB app but the equivalent of a PTE running the trains and buses (via contractors)?

Urban transport in Germany is run by Verkehrsverbuende, which are sort of like PTEs though didn't come about in quite the same way (they started as cartels of operators). They set service levels, fares, timetables and contract operators to provide them.

 

[Meerkat]

Urban transport in Germany is run by Verkehrsverbuende, which are sort of like PTEs though didn't come about in quite the same way (they started as cartels of operators). They set service levels, fares, timetables and contract operators to provide them.

Thanks - I'm wondering whether its easier for the DB app if it is all in the one PTE equivalent. So rather like Overground being in TfL, and long distance being the train plus a travelcard.

 

[BRX]

Whatever happens behind the scenes, the point is the app gives you one end-to-end fare. Even if you start in one state and end in another - a journey that may involve two VVBs and a DB long-haul stretch can still be rolled up into one fare.

 

[fandroid]

Urban transport in Germany is run by Verkehrsverbuende, which are sort of like PTEs though didn't come about in quite the same way (they started as cartels of operators). They set service levels, fares, timetables and contract operators to provide them.

The examples posted are all for regional services for which all fares are set by the Verkehrsverbünde. These are based solely on zones and cover all forms of regional transport - suburban and rural rail, tram, bus, metro, and even ferries. (The fares are basically the same for whatever mode is chosen). The exceptions are IC, EC and ICE long distance trains, and barrier free travel is just about universal. Some bus operators require tickets to be shown to the drivers, many don't. Stations don't have ticket gates or any manual checks there. But there are penalty charges and both uniformed and plain clothes inspectors travel on board the transport.

However, I've noticed that DB is now offering fares for combined national and regional journeys, all covered by one e-ticket. So, in Germany the system already exists for through fares to the very last bus stop. We have it in London with Outboundary Travelcards, but the rest of the UK depends on the mysteries and limitations of PlusBus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, I've noticed that DB is now offering fares for combined national and regional journeys, all covered by one e-ticket. So, in Germany the system already exists for through fares to the very last bus stop. We have it in London with Outboundary Travelcards, but the rest of the UK depends on the mysteries and limitations of PlusBus.

DB offers the CityTicket, which is basically like an outboundary Travelcard (or an all modes Plusbus) but for any city.

 

[Meerkat]

Whatever happens behind the scenes, the point is the app gives you one end-to-end fare.

Any idea if that is just the individual fares added up or a discount (that would cause allocation arguments)?

 

[BRX]

Any idea if that is just the individual fares added up or a discount (that would cause allocation arguments)?

In fact if I change the journey, just to the rail portion of the itinerary (Aachen to Waldenburg), the fares stay the same. Either way I'm given the choice below - basically a range of less to more flexible options.

So to the passenger, the bus links at each end appear to be a free add-on - how revenue is allocated behind the scenes, I have no idea.

 

[fandroid]

I think City-Tickets only exist where there's an agreement with the local transport association. On my last trip to Germany, the city transport in Dessau seemed to exist in a little isolated bubble, something I wasn't used to in the big cities of the Rhineland.

 

[BRX]

Sorry - my mistake - I was not reading closely enough; the fares offered are actually only for the rail segments of the journey, for that example of the longer haul trip across Germany. So it looks like you'd need to purchase the bus bits separately, although it looks like you could still do this within the DB app.

So the German system is not quite as well integrated as I implied. Nonetheless, the integrated ticketing does at least seem to work well within the Stuttgart regional area - maybe it varies across the country.

It's certainly better than what we manage in the UK though.

 

[miklcct]

There has been no problem on the attractiveness of buses, and public transport in general, in London despite there is no integration between bus and rail fares.

However, in London, the ticketing is simple (i.e. PAYG everywhere) and the service is reliable (i.e. you can always get a bus from dawn to midnight wherever in the TfL land), which the country lacks.

Before we dig into those fancy ticketing schemes please give the country a high-quality operation first.