Bus fares and ticket pricing oddities.

[stadler]

I have noticed a couple cases of bus operators charging more money for a ticket with less validity than a cheaper ticket. Both tickets can be purchased from bus drivers on the same bus but the one with greater validity is cheaper and the one with less validity is more expensive.

These two examples come to mind:

Arriva Kent charge £11.00 for an Arriva Kent Day Ticket which is valid only on Arriva buses and only within the Kent area. But yet for an entire £1.00 cheaper at £10.00 you can buy a Discovery ticket which gives the same unlimited travel on Arriva buses in Kent plus unlimited travel on over 30 other bus operators across the Kent / Sussex / Surrey / Hampshire / Wiltshire / Berkshire areas. This has to be one of the biggest rip offs to charge £1.00 extra for a ticket witt so much less validity.

Stagecoach South East charge £6.30 for an Eastbourne Dayrider which is only valid on Stagecoach buses within the Eastbourne town borders or charge £6.30 for a Hastings Dayrider which is only valid on Stagecoach buses within the Hastings town borders. But yet for 20p cheaper at £6.10 you can buy an East Sussex Day Ticket which gives all of that plus unlimited travel across the entire county of East Sussex (plus cross border routes as long as you either start or finish within the East Sussex borders on eight different bus operators.

What a rip off. Why are they charging more money for tickets with less validity. Are they just hoping that people will not be aware of the other ticket type and they can get more money out of people. It seems a bit dishonest.

I would be interested in any other examples? Can anyone think of any other operators selling a ticket with less validity for more expensive than another ticket with greater validity?

Some other very poor value tickets worth mentioning:

Stagecoach South East Dayrider ticket costs £9.90. This gives travel only on Stagecoach South East buses within the East Sussex / Kent area. Meanwhile for just 10p more at £10.00 you can buy a Discovery ticket which gives the same unlimited travel on Stagecoach South East buses in East Sussex / Kent plus unlimited travel on over 30 other bus operators across the Kent / Sussex / Surrey / Hampshire / Wiltshire / Berkshire areas.

Oddly an equivalent Stagecoach South Dayrider ticket costs £8.50. This gives travel only on Stagecoach South buses within the West Sussex / Surrey / Hampshire / Wiltshire / Dorset / Berkshire area. I find it strange how Stagecoach South charge £1.40 less than Stagecoach South East do for their equivalent despite covering a much wider network.

I do wonder how bus companies come up with some of these prices as a lot of them make no sense.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not quite the same, but still an anomaly, is that 16-21 year olds in Wales with a free mytravelpass pay £1 for a single or £3 for day ticket. This is usually less than the child fare. However the scheme is going to be extended to 5-15 year olds in November apparently.

 

[greenline712]

I have noticed a couple cases of bus operators charging more money for a ticket with less validity than a cheaper ticket. Both tickets can be purchased from bus drivers on the same bus but the one with greater validity is cheaper and the one with less validity is more expensive.

These two examples come to mind:

Arriva Kent charge £11.00 for an Arriva Kent Day Ticket which is valid only on Arriva buses and only within the Kent area. But yet for an entire £1.00 cheaper at £10.00 you can buy a Discovery ticket which gives the same unlimited travel on Arriva buses in Kent plus unlimited travel on over 30 other bus operators across the Kent / Sussex / Surrey / Hampshire / Wiltshire / Berkshire areas. This has to be one of the biggest rip offs to charge £1.00 extra for a ticket witt so much less validity.

Stagecoach South East charge £6.30 for an Eastbourne Dayrider which is only valid on Stagecoach buses within the Eastbourne town borders or charge £6.30 for a Hastings Dayrider which is only valid on Stagecoach buses within the Hastings town borders. But yet for 20p cheaper at £6.10 you can buy an East Sussex Day Ticket which gives all of that plus unlimited travel across the entire county of East Sussex (plus cross border routes as long as you either start or finish within the East Sussex borders on eight different bus operators.

What a rip off. Why are they charging more money for tickets with less validity. Are they just hoping that people will not be aware of the other ticket type and they can get more money out of people. It seems a bit dishonest.

I would be interested in any other examples? Can anyone think of any other operators selling a ticket with less validity for more expensive than another ticket with greater validity?

Some other very poor value tickets worth mentioning:

Stagecoach South East Dayrider ticket costs £9.90. This gives travel only on Stagecoach South East buses within the East Sussex / Kent area. Meanwhile for just 10p more at £10.00 you can buy a Discovery ticket which gives the same unlimited travel on Stagecoach South East buses in East Sussex / Kent plus unlimited travel on over 30 other bus operators across the Kent / Sussex / Surrey / Hampshire / Wiltshire / Berkshire areas.

Oddly an equivalent Stagecoach South Dayrider ticket costs £8.50. This gives travel only on Stagecoach South buses within the West Sussex / Surrey / Hampshire / Wiltshire / Dorset / Berkshire area. I find it strange how Stagecoach South charge £1.40 less than Stagecoach South East do for their equivalent despite covering a much wider network.

I do wonder how bus companies come up with some of these prices as a lot of them make no sense.

Incompetence.

Back in the day (1980s) each bus company would have a full time fares expert (and I was one) who would set and increase fares with reference to the full basket, not in isolation.

Fares would be revised carefully, not just "add on 5%" to everything in sight. If there was a day ticket applicable, then a maximum single or return fare would be set, just below the day price.
If your neighbour company ran over one of your routes, then the fares would be co-ordinated.

I inherited a route (this is the early 2010s now) where fares were nicely graduated (in 10p steps) and then suddenly jumped by 50p-60p in the middle of the route .... some manager had been told to jack up the long distance fares by double the standard increase, and had done so, without thinking of the ramifications.

In the case of day tickets ... the rationale should always be to price the all-singing tickets above the vanilla tickets, but again, without a specialist, and often with a local manager plucking an increase out of thin air, chaos will ensue.

I kind of get the difference between prices of Discovery tickets; it depends on the local market, although the Discovery owner should mediate on prices. Again ... if there is no-one available who understands the background at the relevent LTA, then chaos ensues.

It's the one promising angle that franchising might bring, although whether there is an "expert" available is doubtful.

And don't get me started on split fares on the railway ..... I can rant for hours on THAT incompetence!!!!

 

[derbybusdepot]

Seems that the bus companies have come up with their own day tickets, then later joined schemes that undercut them without reviewing their ticket offer as a whole?

There are several offers paid for by bsip money across the country too. Trent Barton were offering a zig zag plus group day ticket during the summer, at a reduced price, but it had to be purchased within Nottinghamshire. If bought across the border in Derbyshire it would cost more. Causes some issue promoting it especially as many routes serve both counties.

I think ticketing for buses in general is quite complex. When in Scarborough the list of tickets on the East Yorkshire website looked quite confusing - far from straight forward anyway.

 

[Seehof]

In York, I know someone who uses First regularly and despite always swiping on and off correctly with his debit card, has been charged a range of prices for a £3 journey. These include £1.50 and two £6.50 of which one said it was a LNER replacement service!

 

[Whisky Papa]

A niche historic example to show that this is not entirely a new phenomenon.

In 1978, the teenage me went on holiday with my parents, using a flat in Old Portsmouth as a base. I bought a weekly Bus Ranger, which covered the NBC subsidiaries of Southdown, Maidstone & District and East Kent. I was thus apparently at the very western edge of its territory, but in the small print it said that tickets bought at Southdown travel offices (tick) were also valid on Provincial and Hants & Dorset (H&D) buses - result!

I was so wary of this oddity being unknown to H&D's drivers that before I went I actually wrote to H&D and received a letter confirming it, which I took with me. Sure enough, eventually a H&D driver queried it - not because he doubted its validity, but because it undercut H&D's own weekly ticket by a significant margin. Their ticket was £6.50, the Bus Ranger was either £5.50 or possibly even £5.00 - yes, a week!

 

[noddingdonkey]

Seems that the bus companies have come up with their own day tickets, then later joined schemes that undercut them without reviewing their ticket offer as a whole?

There are several offers paid for by bsip money across the country too. Trent Barton were offering a zig zag plus group day ticket during the summer, at a reduced price, but it had to be purchased within Nottinghamshire. If bought across the border in Derbyshire it would cost more. Causes some issue promoting it especially as many routes serve both counties.

I think ticketing for buses in general is quite complex. When in Scarborough the list of tickets on the East Yorkshire website looked quite confusing - far from straight forward anyway.

There was an example of this kind of thing where the First West Yorkshire and Metro day tickets were the same price. However the First ticket gave cross-boundary travel to Oldham (pre Bee Network taking over the 184) and Rochdale etc, so there was some justification for both existing.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

First thought would be concessionary fare calculations, a multi-operator ticket may not be included in the basket of fares to calculate the reimbursement but your own tickets will so it may cost more to reduce the price of your own product to match a lower priced LA driven new product. Often operators would withdraw their own ticket, which may help reimbursement even more, and you would hope that whilst the ticket is technically available it isn't ever sold (but drivers are not always as aware of what is on offer as you would like and just sell what they are asked for or can find first which is operator specific often) but this is where that suggestion of people not properly being on top of their brief comes in, if it is a deliberate choice rather than someone forgetting to compare new products to what they have.

It used to be that the big dominant operator could effectively force the price of the new multi-operator ticket up above their own product, making it less attractive for general users to protect themselves, but in recent times the various changes to governance (enhanced partnerships for instance and other levers councils have gained) mean that a more attractive price can be forced through even if one operator is unhappy.

The problem with bus ticketing is if you make it simpler the more people feel they are being ripped off for paying for something they don't want. When we dropped the "scholar" tickets that were only valid on specific school related trips Monday to Friday for "student" tickets that were just slightly discounted standard adult tickets and so valid on weekends and holidays, to simplify the range to avoid confusion, we always found a few parents complaining about paying for weekend travel they didn't want. Same goes for area tickets if the area covers too wide an area or multi-operator tickets if the passenger only uses one operator. The difficulty is finding the "happy medium" of meeting the majority of needs without either resulting in ticket prices too cheap for the operation to be viable or a range so confusing that no one knows what to buy (though there you still have the issue of deliberate or natural stupidity - we have an issue with passengers travelling on interurban buses buying local zone tickets because the route goes there eventually, so a passenger travels from Town X to Town Y but buys the local zone ticket for Town Z because the bus goes there eventually because it is half the price of the network ticket - and there are a lot who travel from Town Y to Town Z who buy the local zone ticket for Town Z because that is where they are going even though it is clear 3/4 of the trip is outside the zone and they then complain their ticket doesn't work in the morning on the way to school/work).

 

[MedwayValiant]

The "owner" of the Discovery ticket is actually the South Downs National Park Authority, even though its validity has always extended well beyond the South Downs National Park. All of the National Park lies in Hampshire and Sussex, but Kent and Surrey have always been covered by the ticket. How this came to pass I don't know, but Kent County Council in particular has long been quite enthusiastic in promoting it.

Should I be slightly concerned that the page about the Discovery ticket has disappeared from the SNDPA's website?

 

[Edvid]

Should I be slightly concerned that the page about the Discovery ticket has disappeared from the SNDPA's website?

It's still on their site.

South Downs Discovery Ticket - South Downs National Park

With a Discovery ticket, you’re free to explore everything the region has to offer by bus. Offering unlimited travel across the South Downs National Park and beyond in the South of England, the Discovery ticket is all you need to make the most of the amazing spaces and places the area has to...

www.southdowns.gov.uk

 

[Budge1980]

An obvious one is Redline on the X20. There are a lot of fares on both the links below, so lots to get head around. The Redline ticket for the X20 is £8 per day. However, the MyBus ticket is £6.50 and covers all the route, including journeys that start and finish in Buckinghamshire. The MyBus ticket allows travel to, from and within Oxfordshire on almost all operators plus on out of Oxfordshire travel in varying circumstances.

Confused about the exact allowance of the MyBus ticket, I confirmed on E-Mail with both Redline and the the owners of the My Oxford ticket that this was indeed the case and have used it as such. The clarity on the 1st link is as a direct result of my intervention, they made the change to wording to remove the previous ambiguity now being:

• Multi-operator Day ticket that allows travel to, from or within Oxfordshire (Also on all parts of routes 110/X20/120/131/132)

I still have the original wording as part of the E-Mail to Redline and their reply.

Fares and tickets - Redline Buses

www.redlinebuses.com

https://www.redlinebuses.com/fare-changes-25th-august-2025.

The weekly ticket is the same at £25 so why not get the one that offers greater coverage.

 

[stadler]

The other thing that annoys me is that since the fare cap it has created an utter mess of return tickets being more expensive than single tickets on some operators. So people who would previously buy one return ticket now have to buy two single tickets if they want to save money.

Most bus operators have more sensibly just made the return double the single. For example some bus operators (eg Brighton & Hove / Metrobus / Falcon Buses / Reading Buses etc) are simply £3.00 single or £6.00 return for most journeys. They just adjusted the return to be double the single. So no longer cheaper than the single but not more expensive either.

But other some bus companies they have only lowered the single to £3.00 but kept the return at the original higher price. For example on Compass Bus (and there are many other bus operators like this as well) they still sell return tickets but they are more expensive than two single tickets. Compass Bus have dozens of crazy examples where it costs £3.00 single or £9.00 return. So the return is three times the single. If some bus operators can lower their return to double the single then why not all bus operators.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

The other thing that annoys me is that since the fare cap it has created an utter mess of return tickets being more expensive than single tickets on some operators. So people who would previously buy one return ticket now have to buy two single tickets if they want to save money.

Most bus operators have more sensibly just made the return double the single. For example some bus operators (eg Brighton & Hove / Metrobus / Falcon Buses / Reading Buses etc) are simply £3.00 single or £6.00 return for most journeys. They just adjusted the return to be double the single. So no longer cheaper than the single but not more expensive either.

But other some bus companies they have only lowered the single to £3.00 but kept the return at the original higher price. For example on Compass Bus (and there are many other bus operators like this as well) they still sell return tickets but they are more expensive than two single tickets. Compass Bus have dozens of crazy examples where it costs £3.00 single or £9.00 return. So the return is three times the single. If some bus operators can lower their return to double the single then why not all bus operators.

Reimbursement calculation most likely.

Whilst the reimbursement for the £3 scheme is not paid per passenger trip the calculations are based on single fare sales only so discounting your return fares may affect your payments for the scheme, some operators may decide it is worth it for other business reasons but most will not want to risk the income. It may also affect concessionary fares reimbursement, again because return fares aren't part of the £3 scheme I assume most concessionary fare schemes would treat those returns as that price whereas it treats the single fares as what the fare would be if the £3 scheme wasn't there (so the single fare could end up calculating against a higher price than the return even before you add in the usage calculation where a return is 2 trips). It depends how the local scheme calculates and pays (if you have a fixed pot it doesn't matter, likewise if the council agrees to use original price rather than discounted price it can be done) but we by the time you add up all the reimbursements that calculate off fares being sold it can be a significant sum of money being sacrificed by an operator to do it.

 

[RT4038]

The other thing that annoys me is that since the fare cap it has created an utter mess of return tickets being more expensive than single tickets on some operators. So people who would previously buy one return ticket now have to buy two single tickets if they want to save money.

Most bus operators have more sensibly just made the return double the single. For example some bus operators (eg Brighton & Hove / Metrobus / Falcon Buses / Reading Buses etc) are simply £3.00 single or £6.00 return for most journeys. They just adjusted the return to be double the single. So no longer cheaper than the single but not more expensive either.

But other some bus companies they have only lowered the single to £3.00 but kept the return at the original higher price. For example on Compass Bus (and there are many other bus operators like this as well) they still sell return tickets but they are more expensive than two single tickets. Compass Bus have dozens of crazy examples where it costs £3.00 single or £9.00 return. So the return is three times the single. If some bus operators can lower their return to double the single then why not all bus operators.

My local bus operator has merely abolished returns altogether. After all, buying a single £3 ticket on two buses, rather than a £6 ticket on one bus is surely not a hardship really?

 

[Dai Corner]

My local bus operator has merely abolished returns altogether. After all, buying a single £3 ticket on two buses, rather than a £6 ticket on one bus is surely not a hardship really?

Not for the passenger directly, but it will increase dwell times. That's probably more of an issue on busy urban routes like Brighton & Hove than quiet rural ones.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Reimbursement calculation most likely.

Whilst the reimbursement for the £3 scheme is not paid per passenger trip the calculations are based on single fare sales only so discounting your return fares may affect your payments for the scheme, some operators may decide it is worth it for other business reasons but most will not want to risk the income. It may also affect concessionary fares reimbursement, again because return fares aren't part of the £3 scheme I assume most concessionary fare schemes would treat those returns as that price whereas it treats the single fares as what the fare would be if the £3 scheme wasn't there (so the single fare could end up calculating against a higher price than the return even before you add in the usage calculation where a return is 2 trips). It depends how the local scheme calculates and pays (if you have a fixed pot it doesn't matter, likewise if the council agrees to use original price rather than discounted price it can be done) but we by the time you add up all the reimbursements that calculate off fares being sold it can be a significant sum of money being sacrificed by an operator to do it.

concessionary fare reimbursement is unaffected by the £3 fare cap.

And it is permissible to offer a £6 max return instead of 2 x £3 singles.

 

[Joshua_Harman]

The other thing that annoys me is that since the fare cap it has created an utter mess of return tickets being more expensive than single tickets on some operators. So people who would previously buy one return ticket now have to buy two single tickets if they want to save money.

Most bus operators have more sensibly just made the return double the single. For example some bus operators (eg Brighton & Hove / Metrobus / Falcon Buses / Reading Buses etc) are simply £3.00 single or £6.00 return for most journeys. They just adjusted the return to be double the single. So no longer cheaper than the single but not more expensive either.

But other some bus companies they have only lowered the single to £3.00 but kept the return at the original higher price. For example on Compass Bus (and there are many other bus operators like this as well) they still sell return tickets but they are more expensive than two single tickets. Compass Bus have dozens of crazy examples where it costs £3.00 single or £9.00 return. So the return is three times the single. If some bus operators can lower their return to double the single then why not all bus operators.

My bus charges £3 single or £10:50 return, people still ask me for a return :/

 

[Dwarfer1979]

concessionary fare reimbursement is unaffected by the £3 fare cap.

The £3 single yes, but would a £6 return be calculated against the £6 charged or the, for instance, £9 undiscounted price (as happens on the single where the calculation is done on the non-discounted price). I suspect in most council cases it would be the former but not to say some may be willing to agree to the latter and if you have a fixed pot scheme it doesn't matter as much anyway.

And it is permissible to offer a £6 max return instead of 2 x £3 singles.

Permissible doesn't mean included, you can do it but it doesn't mean it will be included in the total number of discounted passengers to calculate ongoing payment for the scheme. If the DfT has added a discounted £6 return allowance to the scheme, and it certainly wasn't there in the original scheme, then they clearly have been very good in ensuring operators know that option exists given how few do it as if it was part of the scheme it would clearly be an advantage to the operator to have it to speed boarding on return trips in not having to sell a second ticket.

 

[Teapot42]

My local bus operator has merely abolished returns altogether. After all, buying a single £3 ticket on two buses, rather than a £6 ticket on one bus is surely not a hardship really?

Our local operator abolished both return tickets and the local day ticket. Previously, a return from where we lived down in to town was about £3. The single has now gone up so it's capped at £3 (*) so in effect the out and back for anyone has doubled in the last 5 years. You used to be able to buy a local area day ticket for less, but they decided to get rid of the smaller area tickets and just have one for their either operation (spanning several counties). While it's good value for anyone who needs to travel that far, for the majority who only travel locally it's another jump in cost.

(*) Oddly, a parallel route doesn't fall under the cap for a journey of roughly the same distance and indeed slightly further out of town. One guess would be because it's direct along a main road, while our local service twists through a housing estate so the route miles are further than the crow miles.

 

[mattb7tl]

There was an example of this kind of thing where the First West Yorkshire and Metro day tickets were the same price. However the First ticket gave cross-boundary travel to Oldham (pre Bee Network taking over the 184) and Rochdale etc, so there was some justification for both existing.

This hasn't changed both are £6.

First's ticket purely exists based on the chance someone does not know better and requests a day ticket without mentioning the region. The benefit of this is the fact they do not have to share revenue with other bus operators. It is scummy and it very clearly causes confusion. I have seen too many times people being rejected from other operators services due to this ticket.

Partnership is meant to eliminate confusing ticket options but as with every partnership with bus companies it is all empty promises and no meaningful results.

 

[stadler]

One other oddity i noticed the other week is that Reptons Coaches still charge the old Discovery ticket prices. So you can save money by getting your ticket on their buses. Discovery is a ticket issued and accepted on over 30 bus operators across the Kent / Sussex / Surrey / Hampshire / Wiltshire / Berkshire areas. It is supposed to cost the same on all operators.

It currently costs £10.00 adult or £8.00 child or £20.00 family on all other operators. This is the price since 2022. But on Reptons Coaches they charge £9.00 adult or £7.20 child or £17.50 family. These were the old prices until 2022. So you can save £1.00 adult or £0.80 child or £2.50 family by purchasing your Discovery on Reptons Coaches if you are in their area.

A second oddity i noticed on Reptons Coaches is that they still sell the old Explorer ticket that got replaced by the Discovery ticket in 2016. This ticket costs £8.00 adult or £4.00 child or £12.50 family. It has no validity any more as the Discovery replaced it.

It was similar to the Discovery in that all operators across the South East issued and accepted it. So it seems that Reptons know that the Discovery was introduced but they forgot to stop selling the Explorer ticket. So you can still buy a defunct ticket on their buses that was scrapped in 2016.

Finally a third oddity is that Reptons Coaches sell an "Oyster Match" ticket for £1.50 single if you show the driver an Oyster card. This is a programme that a lot of Surrey operators have. But the current Oyster fare is £1.75 which means that the so called "Oyster Match" is in fact cheaper than an actual Oyster card ride on a London bus.

I reckon there must be lots of other similar oddities like this across the country so i would be interesting to hear of any others. Especially involving multi operator tickets. I think a lot of smaller operators are just not kept up to date about changes that happen to these fares and tickets.

 

[stevieinselby]

Incompetence.

Back in the day (1980s) each bus company would have a full time fares expert (and I was one) who would set and increase fares with reference to the full basket, not in isolation.

You're more generous than I am ... I was cynical enough to believe that some operators would have more expensive "own brand" fares than the equivalent PTE/partnership ticket in the hope that some passengers would buy them and spend more money than they needed to!

 

[YorkRailFan]

A day ticket with First York is £6, the same as the multi-operator All York day ticket. However, the First ticket is valid out to Stamford Bridge, whereas the All York isn't as Stamford Bridge is outside of the City of York Council boundaries.