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Bus driver sacked after preventing theft

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AlterEgo

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Metroline claiming the thief was returning to the bus to apologise gave the biggest laugh out of me.
This explanation was actually advanced by Mr Hehir in his first statement, one which he later changed. Those were also the grounds on which he challenged the decision having already accepted the safety allegation of abandoning his bus and passengers and not calling the emergency services as policy dictates.

The tribunal notes the appeal panel disagreed with the police officer's interpretation of the CCTV and unanimously found Mr Hehir could not have been acting in self defence. The tribunal found the appeal panel made a reasonable interpretation of the CCTV evidence.
 
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Ballyheigue

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Sums up British justice, the lowest of the low robs from someone vulnerable on a bus and the driver runs after them as the passengers are perfectly safe unless some even bigger chavvy useless moron decides to steal the bus with a load of witnesses on board and CCTV, I don't think even the thickest useless chav would resort to this. The lowest of the low then return to the bus to make a so called apology which they really don't mean just because it makes them look good in court. The lowest of the low know they'll only get a few cross words from a judge before they are let off scott free, or have a mickey mouse sentence which is suspended. Meanwhile by circumstances that may possibly have been self defence, but some idiot thinks otherwise, someone dishes out proper justice (not that I'm saying he did actually intend to hit to be clear) and they find their life turned inside out, upside down and thrown to the wolves. The government should be thanking the driver with open arms, it's no wonder crime is so rife in this so called great country.
 

Cheers Drive

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Sums up British justice, the lowest of the low robs from someone vulnerable on a bus and the driver runs after them as the passengers are perfectly safe unless some even bigger chavvy useless moron decides to steal the bus with a load of witnesses on board and CCTV, I don't think even the thickest useless chav would resort to this. The lowest of the low then return to the bus to make a so called apology which they really don't mean just because it makes them look good in court. The lowest of the low know they'll only get a few cross words from a judge before they are let off scott free, or have a mickey mouse sentence which is suspended. Meanwhile by circumstances that may possibly have been self defence, but some idiot thinks otherwise, someone dishes out proper justice (not that I'm saying he did actually intend to hit to be clear) and they find their life turned inside out, upside down and thrown to the wolves. The government should be thanking the driver with open arms, it's no wonder crime is so rife in this so called great country.
Thats not how a civilised society works it’s just a piece of jewellery and his job trained him for incidents like this and he chose to break his contract and the bus could have easily rolled away he invalidated the company insurance.
 

harz99

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Thats not how a civilised society works it’s just a piece of jewellery and his job trained him for incidents like this and he chose to break his contract and the bus could have easily rolled away he invalidated the company insurance.
A modern bus will not roll away with the handbrake on and the doors open.
 

GusB

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Meanwhile by circumstances that may possibly have been self defence, but some idiot thinks otherwise, someone dishes out proper justice (not that I'm saying he did actually intend to hit to be clear) and they find their life turned inside out, upside down and thrown to the wolves. The government should be thanking the driver with open arms, it's no wonder crime is so rife in this so called great country.
Taking the law into your own hands isn't "proper justice" and carries all sorts of risks. You simply do not know how someone is going to react to your actions. What if the perpetrator was carrying a knife or some other sort of weapon? The situation could have had a very different outcome.

A modern bus will not roll away with the handbrake on and the doors open.
Maybe this is the case, but the vehicle was still left unattended while the driver was retrieving the necklace.
 

Astradyne

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Had that "brainless moron" been hurt or killed as a result that driver would have got serious jail time.
It wasn't and the police said he used 'Appropriate' and necessary force' to protect himself and the passenger. Stop trying to invent 'what ifs' that never happened
 

Wolfie

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It wasn't and the police said he used 'Appropriate' and necessary force' to protect himself and the passenger. Stop trying to invent 'what ifs' that never happened
I would suggest that you read the post which l actually responded to before making a fool of yourself.
 

domcoop7

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So a couple of things that might be useful to know.

Firstly when a person is sacked and they put a claim in for Unfair Dismissal, there are (in simplified terms) three ways to show the dismissal was unfair in law. If it is not unfair in law, then that's that. Doesn't matter whether you think it was morally wrong, or tough on the employee in the circumstances. It's black and white.

The three broad ways of showing unfair dismissal are "automatically unfair", "procedurally unfair" or "substantively unfair". Automatically unfair is if you sack someone for being pregnant or for joining a union and the like. That doesn't apply here.

Substantively unfair is when the decision to dismiss can not be justified and is what most people would think of. I'll come back to that later.

Procedurally unfair is when the process is unfair. The decision to dismiss could have been perfectly correct, but if there is no fair procedure, such as a fair disciplinary process and appeal process, then the Tribunal can still make an award. However, what is important to know is that it is the process that is being looked at, not the results of the process. So if there is an appeal, and the appeal panel watches the CCTV and listens to the employee's arguments and then makes a decision, it doesn't actually matter what the decision is. The tribunal doesn't apply their own view of the decision. They just check that a fair process reached the decision. The tribunal here found the procedure was fair.

That is why, for example, it doesn't really matter what the police said about self-defence. It doesn't even matter what the Tribunal thinks about self-defence or whether it legally was self defence or not. What matters is whether a fair procedure happened. Now a decision that was totally unreasonable (which is lawyer speak for "no sensible person knowing the facts could ever possibly agree") is probably not a fair procedure, but the tribunal found that the decision was not unreasonable.

So then the final issue is "substantively unfair". Again, the Tribunal doesn't just second-guess what the employer did. They look to see what the reason for the dismissal was and whether it is a justifiable category. Conduct, Capability, and Some Other Substantial Reason are the main ones. But so long as the employer's decision from the employer's point of view was justifiable, there is no unfair dismissal.

So "conduct" is engaged, because the driver did not follow the employer's rules and procedures and abandoned the bus and potentially put the company into disrepute. The employer is also not going to want to employ someone who can't follow rules and who can't be trusted not to lose it in the future. "Some Other Substantial Reason" is engaged because the knock-on consequences of the actions were significant. The bus could have been stolen or damaged or crashed. Passengers were abandoned. The robber could well have sued the company for compensation and he might have lost but he might have won and cost them a significant amount of money. The driver may have had a self-defence case in law, and a right to detain the robber by way of using reasonable force to make a citizen's arrest, but from the employer's point of view his actions were not just him averting an injury to him in the heat of the moment, but him taking time out of his duties as a driver.

It was always going to be a difficult case to prove on the facts. A different tribunal could easily have found in his favour, so it was not a hopeless case, but just a difficult case. Saying all that, I'm surprised the company didn't just pay him off with a Settlement Agreement and a confidentiality clause to stop him criticising the company, but maybe they did and he wanted more than their offer.
 

coach fan

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Sounds about right for most companies. No sooner do they train drivers up, the moment you pass your test they’ll look for any excuse to get rid of you. Such a revolving door industry.
 

Cheers Drive

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A modern bus will not roll away with the handbrake on and the doors open.
Actually your wrong this has happened quite a few times it’s not often and it shouldn’t happen but I’ve been driving buses for years and I’ve seen it myself but not only this but it is possible for someone to have jumped in the cab to try and steal driver items and knocked it by accident or some people are not stable and might have wanted to try to harm people the driver lost his temper and wanted to be a hero this isn’t acceptable whilst your at work responsible for multiple lives in and around your vehicle.
The theft was all caught on camera and it’s ONLY a thing. He risked his own life and everyone else’s for this and his training is there for this very reason.
Bravado is what this was about he had obviously can’t hold his temper and this isn’t the job for him If that’s his attitude.

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Sounds about right for most companies. No sooner do they train drivers up, the moment you pass your test they’ll look for any excuse to get rid of you. Such a revolving door industry.
It’s definitely not like this they’ve put a lot of effort in to training people it costs them time and money and the industry desperately needs people so I don’t know where you get this from.
 
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coach fan

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Actually your wrong this has happened quite a few times it’s not often and it shouldn’t happen but I’ve been driving buses for years and I’ve seen it myself but not only this but it is possible for someone to have jumped in the cab to try and steal driver items and knocked it by accident or some people are not stable and might have wanted to try to harm people the driver lost his temper and wanted to be a hero this isn’t acceptable whilst your at work responsible for multiple lives in and around your vehicle.
The theft was all caught on camera and it’s ONLY a thing. He risked his own life and everyone else’s for this and his training is there for this very reason.
Bravado is what this was about he had obviously can’t hold his temper and this isn’t the job for him If that’s his attitude.

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It’s definitely not like this they’ve put a lot of effort in to training people it costs them time and money and the industry desperately needs people so I don’t know where you get this from.
The Gov will pay for training if you’ve been unemployed for a certain while. Comaojies pay very little for training, even less if they do in house training. Companies like to sack before drivers get to the top rate of pay. Saves money. It’s well known once a driver starts creeping up the pay grades, a target appears on their back. Where have I got this from? Worked in the industry for 34 years.
 

sprunt

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Those who've read the full tribunal judgment, does anything in there explain why it was necessary for the driver to "restrain" someone who'd apparently been knocked unconscious?
 

35B

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Those who've read the full tribunal judgment, does anything in there explain why it was necessary for the driver to "restrain" someone who'd apparently been knocked unconscious?
No - because the judgment was an appeal, which was not fundamentally about the facts of what happened that on the day, but the process by which a disciplinary led to dismissal
 

alex397

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I’m fascinated to see this case gain so much traction, especially as cases like this happen quite a lot without much publicity, if at all.

Seeing Mark interviewed, he seems like a decent guy, and doesn’t condone reacting with violence.

I know some on here think everything should be done exactly by the book, but real life is complicated. He broke the company policy, and should face the consequences, but that in my view shouldn’t have resulted in a full sacking. People deserve another chance, especially if they have a good record at the company and acted with good intentions.

Metroline and Comfort Del Gro are surely not enjoying this bad publicity!
 

BULLSAREMAGIC

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This explanation was actually advanced by Mr Hehir in his first statement, one which he later changed. Those were also the grounds on which he challenged the decision having already accepted the safety allegation of abandoning his bus and passengers and not calling the emergency services as policy dictates.

The tribunal notes the appeal panel disagreed with the police officer's interpretation of the CCTV and unanimously found Mr Hehir could not have been acting in self defence. The tribunal found the appeal panel made a reasonable interpretation of the CCTV evidence.
Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this incident I think it highlights one of the problems faced by drivers on a daily basis. Anti social and violent behaviour is widespread from major cities to small rural towns and buses are often the easy target. As a driver of 40 + years the level of menace has worsened with one person operation. This situation is worsened by the response time of police to incidents. The recent firework incidents in the west midlands just one example where cctv monitoring caught the events and no police responded if what the interviewed drivers stated and the length of the footage showed. Support for crews seems poor. A colleague on an east midlands operator of the year phoned for police help for violent incidents on his vehicle several times and had no response with culprits leaving vehicle after threatening driver. The only time I have had any interaction from police is driving football fans nad vosa checks.
 

Cheers Drive

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The Gov will pay for training if you’ve been unemployed for a certain while. Comaojies pay very little for training, even less if they do in house training. Companies like to sack before drivers get to the top rate of pay. Saves money. It’s well known once a driver starts creeping up the pay grades, a target appears on their back. Where have I got this from? Worked in the industry for 34 years.
Mate I’ve been in this industry for 27 years and never heard of that usually they kick out the new ones if they have to but I’ve only ever seen companies hold on to staff since the cpc came in it’s been difficult for them to get full staff in most depots.

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Regardless of the rights or wrongs of this incident I think it highlights one of the problems faced by drivers on a daily basis. Anti social and violent behaviour is widespread from major cities to small rural towns and buses are often the easy target. As a driver of 40 + years the level of menace has worsened with one person operation. This situation is worsened by the response time of police to incidents. The recent firework incidents in the west midlands just one example where cctv monitoring caught the events and no police responded if what the interviewed drivers stated and the length of the footage showed. Support for crews seems poor. A colleague on an east midlands operator of the year phoned for police help for violent incidents on his vehicle several times and had no response with culprits leaving vehicle after threatening driver. The only time I have had any interaction from police is driving football fans nad vosa checks.
Down here in Cornwall and when I worked in Devon we don’t get any issues I find it’s certain drivers that attract problems. I worked in Coventry and Birmingham and in the roughest areas never had any problems at all.
 

coach fan

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Mate I’ve been in this industry for 27 years and never heard of that usually they kick out the new ones if they have to but I’ve only ever seen companies hold on to staff since the cpc came in it’s been difficult for them to get full staff in most depots.

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Down here in Cornwall and when I worked in Devon we don’t get any issues I find it’s certain drivers that attract problems. I worked in Coventry and Birmingham and in the roughest areas never had any problems at all.
Well my perspective is London perspective. No idea how they do it down Devon.
 

AlterEgo

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Sounds about right for most companies. No sooner do they train drivers up, the moment you pass your test they’ll look for any excuse to get rid of you. Such a revolving door industry.
Yes, they just lie in wait ready for drivers to abandon the bus to deck someone, an everyday occurrence.
 

Flying Snail

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Yes, they just lie in wait ready for drivers to abandon the bus to deck someone, an everyday occurrence.

He didn't abandon the bus to deck someone, he made a split second decision to assist a passenger who had been the victim of a violent crime.

All this hand-wringing and disaster theorizing over all of the terrible things that didn't happen due to the bus being "abandoned" is such garbage. Buses are routinely left unattended every day all over the country.
 

AlterEgo

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He didn't abandon the bus to deck someone, he made a split second decision to assist a passenger who had been the victim of a violent crime.

All this hand-wringing and disaster theorizing over all of the terrible things that didn't happen due to the bus being "abandoned" is such garbage. Buses are routinely left unattended every day all over the country.
Just to recap, Hehir admitted the Safety part of the gross misconduct allegation and didn't dispute it.
 

Wolfie

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Just to recap, Hehir admitted the Safety part of the gross misconduct allegation and didn't dispute it.
To be honest, as soon as he left the cab and pursed the guy he had no choice but to admit that.
 

Dwarfer1979

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He didn't abandon the bus to deck someone, he made a split second decision to assist a passenger who had been the victim of a violent crime.

All this hand-wringing and disaster theorizing over all of the terrible things that didn't happen due to the bus being "abandoned" is such garbage. Buses are routinely left unattended every day all over the country.
It is against the rules of every company I have worked for to leave a bus unattended with the engine running under any circumstances (whether or not there are passengers on board) and is treated pretty seriously whilst most will tell drivers not to leave buses unattended with passengers on board (though that is more of a misdemeanour than misconduct) though there have been occasions where it has created a serious complaint where a relief driver hasn't turned up and passengers have been trapped on board.

You may feel the driver has been hard done by, it isn't clear what the drivers conduct record actually was though since it didn't appear to be a significant mention in the appeal summary would suggest he wasn't on a major warning which would have meant anything could have seen him sacked, but there is a lot of vitriol given the company were found to have followed all procedures and expectations correctly. Despite the hate seemingly aimed their way I don't think the immediate line manager had much choice but to implement the rules as laid down as they could get sacked themselves if they didn't and something more came out:
1. the driver left the bus unattended with passengers on board
2. the driver left the bus unattended and unsecured with the engine running
3. the driver punched someone and left them unconscious - the pushing and shoving bit before the punch would have been significant misconduct alone without that. All whilst in uniform and on duty, even if the law isn't broken it doesn't mean that it is acceptable.
Combined this does add up to a significant breach of a companies rules.

That said I have seen the more senior manager on the appeal to re-instate due to specific circumstances of the incidence allowing them to give a little mitigation and reinstate on a warning. There are lots of factors that we, as outsiders, cannot know about this case that would affect whether this would be a possible outcome as at this stage it some much on the personalities and attitudes (as well as the drivers record) as you are outside the set procedure and it is more on whether you think this is out of character of something that was simmering under the surface and so could happen again.

Sounds about right for most companies. No sooner do they train drivers up, the moment you pass your test they’ll look for any excuse to get rid of you. Such a revolving door industry.
In my experience it is the other way round at most companies, the criticism of our Operations Teams is they are too willing to give drivers the benefit of the doubt and are too reluctant to fire people who have clocked up multiple complaints in quick succession. Most companies are too short of drivers to be willing to fire staff quickly.
 

mayneway

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I’ve read all the comments here with interest and as a driver myself i think it’s pretty obvious which commenters work in the industry and which don’t.
There are two main factors here as I see it. The fact he did abandon his bus leaving passengers on board.

Secondly which I don’t think anyone has raised yet but as he was in work on company time, what would have happened if he’d been injured or harmed by the mugger? It opens a massive can of worms for the employer. Is it an industrial work place accident? Would the driver claim chase full wages while off recovering?

I want to reiterate that ALL of the major companies and many of the smaller ops are firm on the ‘don’t leave the cab unless your life is at risk’ policy in place and yes many of us have left the cab to kick someone off but when you do leave the cab and become embroiled in an incident you do risk getting into trouble.
 

AlterEgo

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To be honest, as soon as he left the cab and pursed the guy he had no choice but to admit that.
Yes, it is stonewall misconduct, and not the product of someone you reckon "has a sociology degree" or is somehow out of touch. As bus drivers are lining up to tell us, no, you can't abandon your vehicle with passengers when the situation should be dealt with by invoking a procedure and calling the police, something which is designed to keep staff and passengers safe. Everything which followed happened because the driver left their cab and broke with a procedure they knew should be followed, something they freely admit doing and did not contest their gross misconduct dismissal on those grounds.

Everything else is just rage bait, because of course the news doesn't convey the full picture of what transpired in the tribunal. Why trust them?
 

coach fan

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Loving the “elf and safety” lot in here. You’re probably the same people that work at bus and coach stations waiting to scream at drivers for committing the holy crime of not wearing a high viz.
 

peterblue

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It's not just "elf and safety" you also have to view this from a business perspective.

It's textbook gross misconduct. In this scenario the driver (and the company) was lucky that nothing worse happened such as the driver being injured or someone stealing the bus and kidnapping the passengers. All bus companies are insured / self insured and at the end of the day it isn't worth jeopardizing your safety (or the bus passengers) over a necklace.

Yes, given the circumstances it is a little bit unfortunate and I do sympathise with the driver. He does understand and acknowledge he made an error. I'm fairly certain he will find replacement work as most companies are understaffed.
 

Goldfish62

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Yes, given the circumstances it is a little bit unfortunate and I do sympathise with the driver. He does understand and acknowledge he made an error. I'm fairly certain he will find replacement work as most companies are understaffed.
He was the main headline on BBC London News yesterday evening, which shows how much this whole thing has been out of all proportion. He's now a bar tender and says he's happy in the job. Anyone causing trouble in his pub had better watch out. :lol:
 

mayneway

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Loving the “elf and safety” lot in here. You’re probably the same people that work at bus and coach stations waiting to scream at drivers for committing the holy crime of not wearing a high viz.
What a totally immature thing to say.
Not sure if you work but in 99% of work places there’s procedures and rules that have to be complied with.
I can think of 3 possibly 4 drivers from the company I work for who were dismissed or given warnings for leaving the cab during incidents.

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He was the main headline on BBC London News yesterday evening, which shows how much this whole thing has been out of all proportion. He's now a bar tender and says he's happy in the job. Anyone causing trouble in his pub had better watch out. :lol:
I believe he’s vowed never to work in the bus industry again.
It’s sad what’s happened but I can see if from both sides.
 

Wolfie

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Yes, it is stonewall misconduct, and not the product of someone you reckon "has a sociology degree" or is somehow out of touch. As bus drivers are lining up to tell us, no, you can't abandon your vehicle with passengers when the situation should be dealt with by invoking a procedure and calling the police, something which is designed to keep staff and passengers safe. Everything which followed happened because the driver left their cab and broke with a procedure they knew should be followed, something they freely admit doing and did not contest their gross misconduct dismissal on those grounds.

Everything else is just rage bait, because of course the news doesn't convey the full picture of what transpired in the tribunal. Why trust them?
I'm not justifying his actions but suggesting that the punishment is disproportionate. Not to mention likely to make staff even less likely to intervene, to the detriment of the rest of us. Would l want an employer who goes down that road - effectively sod the victim - to get any new contracts? Hell no.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm not justifying his actions but suggesting that the punishment is disproportionate. Not to mention likely to make staff even less likely to intervene, to the detriment of the rest of us. Would l want an employer who goes down that road - effectively sod the victim - to get any new contracts? Hell no.
Saying "keep on the bus, call the police" is not saying "sod the victim".

The point is precisely to stop drivers from intervening *by abandoning their vehicle*, for their own safety and for those of their passengers.
 
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