Bus cuts.

[ChrisCooper]

Just found out that Hinkley, a town in Leicestershire, could loose the majority of it's bus routes as the major operator (Centrebus) is looking to close it's depot. It's one of those areas with a large elderly population, so most travel for free, and since the council is reducing the funding for free travel by 20% the company says services are not viable. This is likely to be bad news for the area, not only due to the direct loss of jobs (around 50 staff are employed at the depot) but also for those who cannot get around without buses, struggling to get to work themselves (if they even can) or not getting out to the shops etc (which then close due to loss of business). I'm sure this is only the tip of the iceberg. It's not like these are council subsidised routes either, most are commercial. I'm sure Coalville and Melton will be the same. At least Loughborough should be largely fine, but I'm sure will be hit. We've already seen some subsidised service cut, although thankfully a few have been taken on commercially. There is not only the funding cuts, but the rising fuel cost too.

 

[anthony263]

Veolia Transport Cymru are cutting a lof of their services. They have cut all of their Ammnford services and have juts lost all of their National express contracts at their treforest depot.

Bus operators are also suffering because they are not getting enough money from local councils for the free bus psses. Veolia dropped a number of services in 2007/2008 because the services became unprofitable even iff the buses were always full.

 

[WestCoast]

It's the same situation on the Fylde Coast in Lancashire. The local operator Blackpool Transport (one of the last council owned operators) has cut around 30-40% of services because of a deficit in the OAP bus funding. This has been exacerbated by the large elderly population and the many elderly tourists that uses their passes like a "travelcard" in the area.

 

[Zoe]

What percentage of passengers on a bus are fare paying? Bus usage has increased quite a bit in recent years but it would be interesting to know how much of this is down to the bus passes.

 

[trentside]

Lincolnshire County Council have published a list of their proposed service cuts from April 2011.

The majority of evening and Sundays journeys have been cut. Many once or twice weekly services have also been axed. A few changes are actually quite sensible, removing unnecessary duplication over certain routes.

One thing not mentioned is the withdrawal of the direct Lincoln to Newark bus service (the X3) launched less than a year ago, not long after the announcement by East Coast that the majority of the proposed Lincoln-London trains would terminate at Newark. Obviously there are still Newark-Lincoln trains, but the bus was a useful alternative, and I for one will miss it!

 

[deltic]

What percentage of passengers on a bus are fare paying? Bus usage has increased quite a bit in recent years but it would be interesting to know how much of this is down to the bus passes.

About 40-50% pay and the remainder travel free although it varies by area. Paradoxically if more over 60s paid a contribution for bus fares then fewer services will be cut.

 

[starrymarkb]

Lincolnshire County Council have published a list of their proposed service cuts from April 2011.

The majority of evening and Sundays journeys have been cut. Many once or twice weekly services have also been axed. A few changes are actually quite sensible, removing unnecessary duplication over certain routes.

One thing not mentioned is the withdrawal of the direct Lincoln to Newark bus service (the X3) launched less than a year ago, not long after the announcement by East Coast that the majority of the proposed Lincoln-London trains would terminate at Newark. Obviously there are still Newark-Lincoln trains, but the bus was a useful alternative, and I for one will miss it!

Thats going to be fun at work, Leicester are also chopping their bus services and the panicking callers are getting more frequent

 

[ChrisCooper]

The free passes tends to vary by area. Seaside type places tend to suffer badly as they typically have elderly populations.

A big problem (not surprising for this government) is that it's the less well off who suffer most. They tend to be less able to afford cars, and also tend to be working (or trying to get work) in the sort of jobs where evenings, weekends and sundays are required. They are already struggling under increasing prices. This is at a time when there are less jobs and people are expected to travel further and be more flexable to find work. Despite the image, I expect many of the long term unemployed don't have a car.

 

[Zoe]

Taxi is always an option if you don't have a car but they are quite expensive.

 

[ChrisCooper]

That's the point, someone earning minimum wage could easily spend a few hours pay on taxi fares.

An ex-girlfriend of mine whilst unemployed was offered a job on the other side of town to where she lived, which included evenings and sundays when there are no buses. They first said she could get a taxi, which she pointed out what I have above (it was 5 days out of 7 and IIRC it was only something like 5 or 6 hours a day), then said someone could pick her up after work, to which she basically said why should they, and what if they were not always able to, then they said she could walk, at which point she told them where to stick that idea (bearing in mind it would have been about an hours walk at gone 10 at night). I think the person saw sence at that. I have some slight anger about the situation because it was stresses like that the lead to us eventually breaking up.

 

[BestWestern]

The only realistic solution, or at least a considerable help, would be for the Government to scrap the free concessionary travel scheme, and revert to a 'half fare' system or similar. This would drastically reduce the costs currently incurred by local authorities, and also cut down considerably the number of 'leisure' journeys made by pass-holders simply as a cost-free social activity, which contirbutes considerably to this cost.

It's a real shame that the same media who are currently slating these service reductions would be equally quick to crucify any Government who proposed ending the free passes, despite the glaringly obvious connection between the two. Hence it is very unlikely that anything will change, and probably true to say that even if and when things look better financially, the Councils won't be too quick to reinstate these loss-making bus services. They'll probably be lost forever in most cases, which is a shame.

 

[Anvil1984]

Whenever anyone mentions the concessionary scheme the only response that you get is that they've deserved the right through paying tax and fares for xx years. The amount of fuss from some in West Yorkshire when the train fare was put up from 35p single to 50p last year was a bit irritating.

There is also a postcode lottery with the concessionary fares, up here we have 3 different areas who get 3 different discounts in regards to rail travel.

West Yorks (after 0930) 50p single, £1 return
GMPTE, half fare pre 0930, free after
South Yorks, free after 0930 can also use direct Northern Rail services to West Yorkshire (so can get to Leeds or Huddersfield for free)

Where is the consistency?

I think the passes need to be consistent and on a local basis, I'm fed up through the Summer of not being able to get a seat on the bus home on the Yorkshire Coastliner as the pass holders are all on their Jollies to Scarborough. Its good to get them out the house for necessary things but not for use like that. It should be half fare or a token flat fare (50p or something like that) or a mixture, token flat fare locally, half fare if cross boundary

 

[chris89]

Im honestly not looking forward to the cuts in bus services.

Even though my local bus service has currently not mentioned any cuts its the only way to get in or out of highley if you don't have a car.

Taxis arn't cheap £11 (before 10.30pm) to Bridgnorth, £20 to Kidderminster and for me having to do it once £30 to Wolverhampton station.

Chris

 

[ivanhoe]

The consessionary bus pass has been a victim of it's own success. It has helped many bus companies keep commercial services going thus providing jobs and helping the country to reduce it's carbon footprint. Socially, it's helped the mobility of Senior Citizens, a cost that cannot be over estimated. However as the baby boomers move on mass to their 60 th birthday, it is clear that in it's present format, that it is not sustainable. The way forward will have to be a flat fare, say 50p. Bus companies could offer 10 journey cards at reduced rate. Bus companies working together with Local Authorities and Government could solve this ticking time bomb and come up with a cost effective solution which could save services.

 

[142094]

After doing a bit of research for work, I found that there was quite a large number of people travelling to York railway sattion from places like Malton, Bridlington and Hull, all travelling by bus and all travelling using an OAP bus pass. Reason why? Cheaper and in a lot of cases faster than the train. I very much doubt that the free bus pass was designed for travel like this, and I bet no-one thought this would happen. Goes to show why some commercial bus services from Leeds to Harrogate and Ripon were removed due to the large amount of pensioners using the route.

 

[Zoe]

helping the country to reduce it's carbon footprint.

I'm not sure this is the case, many of the people taking advantage of the bus passes don't have cars. If you are under 60 you would only get a pass if you have been refused a driving licence. It should also be noted that at least in London, giving the under 16s free travel has in some cases encouraged use of buses for very short journeys that they could have walked.

 

[dzug2]

There is also a postcode lottery with the concessionary fares, up here we have 3 different areas who get 3 different discounts in regards to rail travel.

West Yorks (after 0930) 50p single, £1 return
GMPTE, half fare pre 0930, free after
South Yorks, free after 0930 can also use direct Northern Rail services to West Yorkshire (so can get to Leeds or Huddersfield for free)

Where is the consistency?

Why does there have to be consistency? The Big Society is all about local solutions for local problems. It won't be a postcode 'lottery', it will be postcode local decision making by democratic means to solve the most pressing local problems

(removes tongue from cheek)

 

[Deerfold]

Goes to show why some commercial bus services from Leeds to Harrogate and Ripon were removed due to the large amount of pensioners using the route.

There are buses like this but the 36 from Leeds to Harrogate and Ripon has gone from strength to strength in recent years, doubling its Sunday frequency from hourly for much of the day and with far more evening buses than there used to be.

 

[142094]

Can't remember which service it was that they took off, but I was told that they were making a loss of a couple of quid per free bus pass user, so had no other choice to take it off.

 

[SS4]

The free passes tends to vary by area. Seaside type places tend to suffer badly as they typically have elderly populations.

A big problem (not surprising for this government) is that it's the less well off who suffer most. They tend to be less able to afford cars, and also tend to be working (or trying to get work) in the sort of jobs where evenings, weekends and sundays are required. They are already struggling under increasing prices. This is at a time when there are less jobs and people are expected to travel further and be more flexable to find work. Despite the image, I expect many of the long term unemployed don't have a car.

Plus the long term unemployed still have to pay (half price on passes - but not cash fares - for Travel West Midlands (TWM)) despite having less to live on than the elderly.

In the centro area I believe a concessionary pass gives you Bus, Train and Metro anywhere within the centro area from 9:30 to the end of service. Given that the centro area extends from Coventry to Wolverhampton it's not small.

I don't begrudge the elderly being given a free bus pass because I have seen a lot of them on the bus that probably would otherwise have not got on. For the poorer it's not implausible that free bus travel all day provides warmth and company which would cost a lot of money at home. Perhaps if the bus pass was a "perk" of getting pension credit (ie: means tested) use would be for those who need it.

They've even brought an existing word a new definition into my vocabulary: twirly - a contraction of too early from when said passes are used before 9:30

 

[Deerfold]

Can't remember which service it was that they took off, but I was told that they were making a loss of a couple of quid per free bus pass user, so had no other choice to take it off.

Sounds like the X54 Harrogate - York. Harrogate & District started it every other hour and built up to hourly. Then NYCC reduced the amount paid per free pass and the entire service became uneconomic and was withdrawn. I think there's a subsidised service a couple of times a day now.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think even thats been withdrawn now, IIRC it was introduced by Transdev Harrogate then the frequency bumped up due to demand, then reduced to the old timetable due to falling passenger numbers and the pass subsidy going down, at which point Harrogate Coach Travel introduced some journeys to plug the gap. Then Transdev decided the route wasn't worth worth it and HCT battled on a limited timetable before even they gave up on it

 

[shinkansen1966]

And haven't the Tories' 80s bus reforms finally come home to roost ?

Prior to c1985, we had a largely municipal/nationalised bus service. Fast forward 25 years and several policy bolt-ons later now look: outside London an almost entirely private bus network with sizeable public funding. And with added complication that a it's dual operation with private bus companies choosing to operate the bits they want, and getting local council to fund the bit these same companies choose not operate. On top of that, these same bus companies convey senior citizens with a state/local council funding combo.

We really have got the bus service that Tory voters of the 1980s slept walked into. Disorganised, disfunctional, lacking financial control and still requiring state funding.

Even the american weren't stupid enough to privatise and deregulate their municipal bus operations. And thankfully, the Tories weren't stupid enough to do the same here in London, nor in Northern Ireland. But they short sighted to enough to wreck bus services in the rest of the country.

What a mess.

 

[Deerfold]

And haven't the Tories' 80s bus reforms finally come home to roost ?

Prior to c1985, we had a largely municipal/nationalised bus service. Fast forward 25 years and several policy bolt-ons later now look: outside London an almost entirely private bus network with sizeable public funding. And with added complication that a it's dual operation with private bus companies choosing to operate the bits they want, and getting local council to fund the bit these same companies choose not operate. On top of that, these same bus companies convey senior citizens with a state/local council funding combo.

We really have got the bus service that Tory voters of the 1980s slept walked into. Disorganised, disfunctional, lacking financial control and still requiring state funding.

Even the american weren't stupid enough to privatise and deregulate their municipal bus operations. And thankfully, the Tories weren't stupid enough to do the same here in London, nor in Northern Ireland. But they short sighted to enough to wreck bus services in the rest of the country.

What a mess.

There are a handful of routes which have improved (mostly in areas of very high population density or between two former municipal areas which didn't work together well) but generally bus services have got worse (although in some areas the actual buses are a lot better - but probably would have been anyway) and more expensive - for both farepayers and taxpayers.

 

[Ivo]

I know I'm liable to getting slated for having such a pass, but I am going to defend it (to a point anyway). I have experienced two opposite sides to the argument, obviously owing to where I have been living.

SOUTHEND: Arriva and First have gone opposite ways since the national scheme was launched in 2008. Guess which one has gone backwards? Seriously though, First have introduced larger vehicles cascaded from London on to its trunk 27 route to Canvey Island, and have increased the frequency of buses between Leigh-on-Sea and Southend via the hospital from three an hour to four. They seem to be in better shape than ever. Arriva, on the other hand, have gone from something like 35 double deck vehicles in 2004 to just two. Route-wise, Arriva have had to curtail their 5 back to Basildon, as was the case 2003-2008, because almost every user had a pass and they could not sustain the route commercially, especially in competition with c2c on the longer Southend to Grays/Lakeside runs. So in essence, First have done well, while Arriva have not. As for the councils, Essex CC now oversee pass distribution throughout the council, as opposed to the districts and boroughs due to the costs involved; being unitary however, Southend and Thurrock are exempt from this and continue to go it alone.

BATH: First's services are, for the most part, becoming increasingly less frequent. Since the national scheme came in: Service 4 has been virtually abandoned; Service 5 has been reduced; Services 6 and 7 have been halved; Service 10 has been reduced; Service 12 has been completely abandoned (picked up by independent Faresaver); Service 13 has been reduced; Service 14 has the same (helped by the hospital); Service 20 has been abandoned (picked up Rotala-owned Wessex Connect, who for the record are second to Arriva Southend on my hate list). The other local routes are more-or-less the same. Distance routes have suffered as well; Service 271 in particular has been cut to half-distance (with its vehicles given to the city's most important bus route*, the 18. Many routes do, however, now use slightly larger vehicles, which is a plus. Crucially in Bath, the Royal United Hospital is the local major A&E for a large area, spreading well into Wiltshire, so passes are vital - especially when coupled with the hilly nature of the city. I do fear for Services 264/265 to Warminster though; sometimes it can carry 50 passengers per journey and register 45 passes!

(*WHAT? No it bloody well isn't! First just couldn't care about anyone besides the Uni - and not my Uni either! The X39 is the city's premier bus route.)

I think the current tactic of increasing the age requirement is the right thing to do. In particular, it isn't fair on the average taxpayer if the average 60 year-old is more able and active than in 1990 - but now receiving even more benefit than before. In my opinion, it should have been set at 65, not 60.

And lastly, I have an orange-striped (i.e. disabled) pass, not a blue-striped (i.e. age) one. Don't forget that.

 

[W-on-Sea]

While Ivo's points are fair, I have to say that both Arriva and First in the Southend area are the pits, really!

I think it's being overly kind to First to say they have done well: for various reasons. (a) their buses (even the double-deckers brought onto the 27/28) are aging and as grotty as Arriva's. (First's livery is far more unattractive too, but that is by the by)

(b) They have an annoying habit of changing the routing and/or numbering of their routes on a semi-regular basis - seemingly to try and work out exactly which combination of roads in Leigh-on-Sea will bring them the most passengers on their various Southend area-Canvey routes. Well, if they want passengers, they should try and advertise and promote the changes somewhat more energetically than they do!

(c) their sense of timekeeping, or even trying to maintain the scheduled times seems next to non-existent. (This is true of Arriva as well). But things like buses leaving the starting point of a route three or four minutes early seem commonplace, and are unforgiveable!

So bad that one almost thinks fondly of the service that even Thamesway/Eastern National once provided in comparison....

Only the rare and infrequent services operated by Stephensons or (ECC contracted) Regal Busways approach an attractive vision of bus travel near Southend nowadays IMHO...

Although perhaps Arriva have greater chutzpah (not in a good way). During the local elections here a couple of years ago one of the (conservative) candidates was campaigning on the basis of having persuaded Arriva, in response to public demands, to restore a bus service along the main shopping street in Westcliff from which a regular service had been withdrawn several years earlier. I thought, in a vaguely cynical fashion, I bet that's 1 bus an hour, for 4 hours a day, 1 day a week. Hey presto, I was right. (Route 17. Thursday mornings/early afternoons. Not terribly useful.)


The problem is (quite apart from the whole very Thatcherite travelling-by-buses-is-only-for-losers or pensioners mentality that pervades this bit of Essex; and the general problem of having a non-integrated network; and - not unrelated to the above - the complete lack of interest on the part of Southend Council in promoting public transport) that both Arriva and First seem to lack any sense of vision or purpose.

The discrepancy in fare pricing between different routes (and between this bit of Essex and elsewhere in the county) also makes very little sense to me.

But, still, based on what they do elsewhere, I'm sure Stagecoach would go about things somewhat differently. They would certainly publicise the services that they do operate properly, and I suspect be less shy about running more services after the witching hour of 7pm as well.

 

[Ivo]

I knew you'd come along to discuss that post!

I have to say that I may have defended First in the section above, but in practice unless something has changed very recently - by which I mean this year [or New Year's Eve ] - then there are just two vehicles that are less than ten years old between the two fleets! And then they are the smallest vehicles between the two, and conveniently happen to be on the route that runs within a couple of minutes' walk of Arriva's depot [13]...

Elsewhere in Essex, you can see how short the straw Southend pulls. Harlow's fleet is far more modern than Southend's, and guess what? Arriva are the sole major player there. Across the rest of Essex, especially Chelmsford but also to a lesser degree Basildon, the fleets are better and more modern, and guess what? First are the major player in both of those. Only Colchester bucks the trend, but First are the clear dominant there - and even then, the "Arriva" fleet was only upgraded because TGM (now in Arriva's, and therefore the Germans', hands) did it.

If the Arriva and First operations in Southend were merged, as nearly happened in the early 1990s, everything would be so much better. With the primary competition gone, the operator would be far more open to improving the fleet and service levels. I would expect to see double deckers patrolling the 7 and 8 once more, a combined 5 frequency between the 1, 2 and [renumbered 3] 27, careful manipulation of the 9 and 20 timetables to compliment each other, and through services between Leigh town centre and the eastern half of the borough once again. I would also hope to see better longer-distance routes, such as the return of the short-lived South Woodham Ferrers route, but also the recently withdrawn Lakeside route and of course a better “stopping” route to Chelmsford.

 

[W-on-Sea]

To be honest, Ivo, I doubt that the presence of only one major operator in Southend would make that much difference. Partly because I'd say that First and Arriva are not really in competition with each other (apart from, I suppose, to some extent on the services along the A13 - but barely there given the number of passes and given that many tickets are interavailable between the two operators). Essentially Arriva have Thorpe Bay and Shoebury and Rochford and beyond to themselves, and First have Canvey and Benfleet and Hadleigh to themselves, with a bit of overlap inbetween.

Indeed just as (pre-1986) Eastern National and Southend Transport operated between them a co-ordinated, rather than competitive network. And when deregulation happened Southend Transport went quite mad - Routemasters were a nice touch, but all the money being spent on coaches to London (were there 10 X1s an hour in the rush hour at one point?) ...couldn't last. But very little that was really in the local customers' interest happened.

(In Essex nowadays I suppose Harlow is the prime example of a very, perhaps excessively, competitive bus network -operators and routes seem to have been in a near-constant state of flux...since 1986 more or less) .

In Southend, sure, if there were only one main operator, some of the timings of routes that overlap would (hopefully) be more logical than at present...but I think you are being hopelessly optimistic if you ever expect to see a double decker, let alone a new-ish one on the 8! I actually wonder how much longer that route has left, so keen do Arriva seem to run it down. And long-distance routes...apart from that mysterious daily NX coach to Liverpool (why?), and the Stansted Airport bus...there seems to be no interest in them. Perhaps the geographical isolation of Southend is a major reason for that.

I kind of suspect a bit of real competition in Southend might force Arriva or First to raise their game a bit. Although perhaps that is over-optimistic...

At present I'd say that both companies give the impression of treating the Southend operation as a "low cost" or "no frills" operation. Neither make any innovations -except grudgingly, and then they are so minor as to be almost pointless (eg route 17 mentioned above, or the Tuesday daytime service on the 6a in Leigh, or the other two routes they operate on one day a week) or anything that requires additional expenditure. The general sense seems to me to be one of "managing decline", doing very little to attract new custom.

If they wanted to look at how to run and promote a decent bus network, the example of Ensignbus in Thurrock is just down the estuary..

Sure, the geographical shape of Southend (long and thin - and with a very reliable and reasonably frequent railway line down its spine) doesn't help matters, nor does the general attitude towards public transport locally. But a bit of imagination could surely help...

In any case it seems very clear that the post-1986 arrangement for bus services in the UK, outside Greater London and Northern Ireland, simply do not work.

 

[Deerfold]

To be honest, Ivo, I doubt that the presence of only one major operator in Southend would make that much difference. Partly because I'd say that First and Arriva are not really in competition with each other (apart from, I suppose, to some extent on the services along the A13 - but barely there given the number of passes and given that many tickets are interavailable between the two operators). Essentially Arriva have Thorpe Bay and Shoebury and Rochford and beyond to themselves, and First have Canvey and Benfleet and Hadleigh to themselves, with a bit of overlap inbetween.

The village I grew up in has had pretty much one operator from deregulation until about 18 months ago (going through a number of owners until settling as First). Services and age of buses has gradually generally got worse. The only improvements recently has been the introduction of a new operator to the area - they won a number of contracts and registered some First routes in competition. First simply deregistered theirs so they never competed. It's not bucked the ideas of First up at all - there are now buses from Halifax every half hour, 1 an hour run by Centrebus with 60-reg buses and pleasant drivers, 1 an hour run with 20+-year old First buses with drivers at very low morale. The only changes First ever seem to make are to reduce frequencies and remove routes - it seems a shame that few companies are brave enough to increase frequencies and widen operating times and then advertise an attractive service (Nottingham seems to have done well in this area from both NCT and TrentBarton - though at the cost of losing some lower-frequency routes). I'm a keen advocate of public transport but there's journeys I do where I can no longer get a bus home from the station - I can see why people would not do the train part of the journey when it's impossible to complete by bus - once you've got a taxi or lift it can add a lot in time or money to the journey.

 

[142094]

The difference between First Staff and York Pullman staff here in York is remarkable. Pullman have some of the friendliest staff around, whereas First seem to have all the miserable gits. So much so that I'd rather wait 10 minutes longer for a Pullman bus than a First.