I genuinely do not understand the lack of barriers on most bits of SE Metro. Surely the cost of installing barriers would be outweighed by the recovered lost fares - even with people bumping? I remember Abbey Wood getting barriers for Elizabeth lines caused a slight increase at people using the next non-barriered stations.
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'Bumping' - is it becoming a serious problem?
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If you had barriers you’d need to employ staff to man them (many SE metro locations are currently unmanned for much/all of the time), and the assumption is that most journeys will involve transiting through a barriered London terminal, or more major locations like Abbey Wood/Dartford.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This is the same approach Merseyrail use - consider that most journeys involve gated stations and just occasionally RPI sting the rest for deterrence. Guards on the 777s do now check tickets but I don't think they can do anything bar ask you to get off and buy one if you don't have one.
contrex
Established Member
Oh dear! Do you think I should hand myself in? To forestall argy-bargy, I do accept that fare evasion is a criminal offence.
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If people do, as I often have, travel between unstaffed stations (e.g. on GWR between Lawrence Hill and Filton Abbey Wood, or anywhere on the Seven Beach line), and alight without having been approached by anyone selling tickets, do they promptly forward a postal order to the TOC?
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
However you are wrong to suggest that.
Austerity means fewer staff, fewer police officers. Fewer court staff. Fewer prison staff. Fewer probation staff.
Austerity means you are less likely to get caught and, should you actually be caught, you’re less likely to face serious consequences.
People engage in more criminal activity if they know they’ll get away with it.
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I did say that. And I believe it to be true.
I didn’t say they do it because they’re poor. That would not be true.
They do it because austerity means they get away with it.
DerekC
Established Member
I am interested in the perceived reasons for the apparent increase in this kind of behaviour. Some mentioned "post-Covid". If a change has really happened in the last two years, is that a coincidence? If not, what might the explanation be?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The poor state of the economy (partly due to COVID) and fare increases, and therefore more people considering fare dodging because they can't afford to pay the fares?
bramling
Veteran Member
A few thoughts:
Appalling example set by politicians, not least Boris Johnson?
Lack of enforcement during Covid (for example most railway companies didn’t do much revenue protection for large parts of 2020 and 2021) leading to people finding they can get away with things?
Spending time restricted to own circles during Covid so losing touch with how to behave in social situations?
People working from home not having to answer to anyone?
Increased prices as a result of the inevitable high levels of inflation caused by the Covid response?
Masks now being socially acceptable making it easier for people to conceal their appearance?
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If you are evading regularly as you appear to suggest. I sincerely hope you get caught soon
I’ve no experience of Merseyrail, but there’s no doubt SE’s approach does make for spectacular levels of not tapping in between more minor stations! Their metro services are fully DOO, with occasional revenue patrols, but it’s *vanishingly* rare for tickets to be checked on board. At least travel on Merseyrail carries a high chance of a ticket check by a guard, which will deter many casual evaders, even if there isn’t much that can be done.
As per Merseyrail, really. The incentive to pay is the embarrassment factor of being that person who the entire carriage then learns has failed to tap in.
A good list, I have no doubt all of the above are factors.
In relation to the second I’ve spoken to a couple of guards who were asked “aren’t the trains free anymore?” when they resumed ticket checks. I’m sure nobody actually thought they were free, but the fact this was offered as an excuse gives some idea of the scale of the problem.
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contrex
Established Member
I personally (and I am an old codger) think it's a case of 'things were different in my day', 'you could leave your door unlocked', etc, etc. There is a well known discrepancy between the fall in most types of crime (especially the violent type) and peoples' notion of it increasing. Possible fuelled by political agendas (had a look at the Daily Mail lately?)
I have lived in London since 1986. The one and only time l have seen a knife flashed was in the 90s on a SWT service from Richmond to Waterloo.
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There does seem to be a programme of paddle replacement. I assume that the new grey paddles are more robust than the old transparent ones.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Late night MKC-Bletchley trips were known among my circles as "the free train" by several people. I always paid, but was the only one...
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Probably social media which is used to spread fear etc, as well as clickbait news.
Certainly in my lifetime it's never been considered OK to leave your house unlocked in the major urban areas (though in the middle of nowhere it probably still is). However I have done it once recently-ish (it was unlocked for 3-4 days, I forget) and the same with my car parked on the street with a toolbox visible on the passenger seat, and in neither case was anything stolen.
The much vaunted 20k additional police officers still hasn't got us back to 2010 figures.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
My usual refrain is that Bletchley guards certainly could, but they do seem to be venturing out a bit more often of late. Have they got scanning commission now perhaps?
At best you'll get some false details or those of a "friend" who can legitimately claim "it wasn't me". At worse things will get physical and abusive, then you'll have your expensive staff signed off for weeks over a £2.50 Oyster fare.
The type of people you see pushing through gates generally aren't lacking in physical fitness or confidence - they'll simply push harder and run faster.
I've seen it at National Rail stations where a group of rough looking youths walk towards the gates and they open them, they could at that point have tickets. I can see the thinking though of move them on, avoid conflict and let them be someone elses problem. TfL do make them push the gate.
bramling
Veteran Member
I’m fortunate enough not to have seen it myself. However I have access to incident reports where people state knives have been seen or they have been threatened. Likewise reports which state that arrests have been made for possession of an offensive weapon.
It *is* happening, and it *is* increasing. What I find more concerning is that it’s becoming increasingly brazen.
Society functions on the basis that people willingly follow the rules, and that most folk have sufficiently high standards that they prefer to avoid the punishments for not doing so, and sufficient respect for others to understand what is and isn’t acceptable. For whatever reason an increasing proportion of society seem to have chosen to opt out of that concept, and instead go through life with, essentially, a “f*** you” attitude towards everybody else, be that companies or individuals. They soon discover that actually you can live quite successfully free from the chains of social obligation and personal responsibility, egged on as they are by the scourge of social media and their peers. At a much lower level, but along similar lines, another thing that is very, very prominent now is people sitting in a carriage full of other people and blasting out some dross on Youtube etc, or some god awful tinny “music”, or even a conversation with somebody, over their mobile phone’s speaker. I find it utterly infuriating and abhorrently antisocial, but it’s quite clear that plenty of people out there think it’s fine - again; sod everyone else.
If you travel on a train without paying, push through or jump the barriers, steal from a supermarket or a multitude of other low level crimes, the reality is that nobody gives a sh*t. The police won’t arrest you, the staff aren’t going to tackle you, the “security” guy on the door is a window dressing measure who can and will do absolutely nothing at all, and you’ll probably get away with it. Furthermore, if you’ve chosen that path in life you’ll slowly amass a criminal record, but our gutless justice system does sod all so you just keep racking up the fines, cautions, slaps on the wrist and whatever else comes your way. Again; nobody gives a sh*t - not the crims, nor the authorities.
TOCs engage heavily in conflict avoidance training, and rightly so, which is why ALL staff - be they gateline staff, revenue protection inspectors, guards or anyone else - are very highly unlikely to be proactively tackling people who haven’t paid. They’re risking both their wellbeing and their employment if they get hands-on trying to stop a fare dodger. The BTP might get involved, but if it’s a regular they’ll likely have a comprehensive list of previous and really not be terribly bothered about another “train fine” - in many cases they’ll be speaking to the police about other, worse offences frequently!
If you travel on a train without paying, push through or jump the barriers, steal from a supermarket or a multitude of other low level crimes, the reality is that nobody gives a sh*t. The police won’t arrest you, the staff aren’t going to tackle you, the “security” guy on the door is a window dressing measure who can and will do absolutely nothing at all, and you’ll probably get away with it. Furthermore, if you’ve chosen that path in life you’ll slowly amass a criminal record, but our gutless justice system does sod all so you just keep racking up the fines, cautions, slaps on the wrist and whatever else comes your way. Again; nobody gives a sh*t - not the crims, nor the authorities.
TOCs engage heavily in conflict avoidance training, and rightly so, which is why ALL staff - be they gateline staff, revenue protection inspectors, guards or anyone else - are very highly unlikely to be proactively tackling people who haven’t paid. They’re risking both their wellbeing and their employment if they get hands-on trying to stop a fare dodger. The BTP might get involved, but if it’s a regular they’ll likely have a comprehensive list of previous and really not be terribly bothered about another “train fine” - in many cases they’ll be speaking to the police about other, worse offences frequently!
Kite159
Veteran Member
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In my experience it is still quite rare to get a ticket check by the guard/'Train Manager' on Merseyrail. Quite a few passengers only pay in the rare event of getting challenged or use the lift at Lime Street (a prime candidate for a revenue block). Or even only buy from Sandhills to Liverpool Central.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Still astonishes me they don't put someone (or a remote monitored gateline) on the "fare dodger's lift" permanently, it's a massive hole in the system.
Northern trains are generally rather shorter than London trains
Its not a recent thing, generations of being told about rights rather than responsibilities and weak enforcement have given people the feeling they are owed and don’t have to obey.
The balance has gone a bit too far - the scratters know they can’t really be touched, know gate staff aren’t going to give them a kicking if they resist, and a rough police van ride or suchlike would be seen as a money making opportunity.
Social media also spreads cheats like wildfire (ie ‘you don’t have to pay, the gate staff won’t do anything’) and reinforces the idea that ‘everyone is doing it’.
Merseyrail sounds great with enforcement of no feet on seats etc. SWR guards just walk on by.
As I understand it, Merseyrail have “hit squad” enforcement teams who dish out penalties for feet on seats? That is rather different to a traditional guard (including, indeed, a Merseyrail guard for that matter), who will be far more likely to attract a mouthful of abuse or worse. There is also the fact that if you asked ten people to remove their feet from the seats and then came back five minutes later, nine of them will have their feet on the seats again.
But if you don’t say anything to the ten people then 12 will have their feet on the seats when you come back. And maybe someone decides this is a dirty mode of travel that the staff don’t care about and gets the car next time.
Guards walking past and saying nothing is a tacit acceptance that its ok.
They could at least do a a PA pointing out that it is against the bylaws and merits a fine - like station staff do when they see people smoking/vaping.
lxfe_mxtterz
Member
I pretty much always challenge feet on seats when patrolling my trains - but, as @Towers has said, the second you turn your back, the filthy shoes magically return to the raised position further dirtying the seats.
At which point, there's not really any point in challenging it again walking back the other way. So instead, I then tend to make a "sob story esque" announcement to remind the ten people who clearly have no respect for their surroundings that treating the train like their living room is going to dirty the seats and make the other passengers incredibly upset when they have to sit down on a load of mud.
Do they listen? Probably not. Does it stop them? Probably not. But hopefully it does make them think deep down and consider their actions - rather than just "another miserable rail employee having a go at me for feet on seats / smoking / vaping".
At least I'm seen to be doing my part, and - as you rightly say - not challenging it only reinforces the twisted belief that it's socially and morally acceptable to dirty property that isn't your own.
Good on you!
It also makes the other passengers feel better, whereas staff ignoring it just gives off a ‘we don’t care’ attitude.
I think people understand that you don’t want a confrontation, but a comment and moving on, and an announcement is a respected effort.
It depends on the line but I think there are a lot of culprits who are just thoughtless, or might act surly but do feel a bit embarrassed if called out and have other passengers giving them the “they mean YOU glare”.
Turtle
Member
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This thread seems to have morphed from fare evasion by tailgating and bumping into wider antisocial behaviour. Perhaps it should be renamed.
Which is weird as the suburban routes contain major centres all along them on South Eastern Metro. Other networks manage to staff not just either end.
When Abbey Wood saw gates installed and in operation passengers counted/paying went up about 75 per cent with no change in services. A lot of journeys.
They're losing loads by ignoring Plumstead, Blackheath, Charlton etc
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