Buggies on trains

[jon0844]

so what is the guard supposed to do?

Watch Falling Down and you'll know.

 

[CarterUSM]

It's the old adage, of your damned if you do and your damned if you don't. There is however, many ways to return a show stopping retort with a smile if the need arises.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
and don't come out with "remain professional" bull, I mean in the real world!

Remain professional, as most trained people in the real, public-facing world do. Or does the training not include how to defuse situations that arise?

 

[royaloak]

So what would you actually do?

It seems that all the ones with the answers (which dont actually work in the real world) do not work in a customer facing role, and so dont really have a clue! Sound like some managers I know

In most professions you can call for assistance, on a train it is just you and the "other party".

 

[CarterUSM]

Someone threatens you with violence? It's never happened to me fortunately, but I think I would likely call it quits and book off.

 

[royaloak]

So you turn to walk away and-
1/ all the "normals" think its discusting that you are not "dealing" with the problem
2/ you get a smack around the head for "dis-respecting" the numpty.

 

[Donny Dave]

Terribly sorry perhaps you could forward all your travel plans for the next 12 months so we can ensure we provide trains at the time you require!

Not your fault, it's just that Doncaster - Scotland services are getting worse over time, with currently only 9 direct services to/from Edinburgh a day. This gets cut to 6 a day in the Eurika timetable, but that's a subject that has been discussed in another topic.

 

[royaloak]

The same is happening on the East Coast as has already happened on the West Coast with the intermediate calling points (or lack of them).

I take it you saw the smillie on my original post

 

[CarterUSM]

No, never turn your back on anybody, I certainly wouldn't anyway. To be perfectly frank though, if it's got to the stage that you are being threatened with violence, which i'd like to think it wouldn't then the game is over anyway as far as working is concerned. Down tools.

 

[Oswyntail]

If I may ask a serious question? How does the training for becoming a guard/inspector prepare you for dealing with situations like these, where your passengers become aggressive? I am assuming that the TOCs, like banks, hospitals, schools, police, shops and other areas where you are dealing with the public, actually do include this in the training. Or am I wrong?

 

[jon0844]

You are trained to try and diffuse a situation to avoid it ever getting to that point. Of course, that isn't always going to be possible - especially if someone is on a mission to kick up a fuss.

I would also say that staff are told not to put themselves in danger, which makes sense. Sadly, it also tells the very people who cause the problems that it's okay to do that - and the more you push and threaten, the more chance you have of getting away with whatever it is you're doing. It's why a group of 'youths' mouthing off to an RPI (or even more than one) will probably get 'let off' as there's no way staff will do anything without the police backing them up - and BTP surely won't come out to deal with people who didn't buy tickets. Thus, to avoid a PF, simply threaten the staff. RPIs are told to write down a description of the 'offenders' but I doubt that this does much good.

I'm not saying a guard should get into a fight with someone, but IF this did happen regularly and staff could fight back then you might actually stop people trying it on in the first place.

I've seen an incident where a train driver literally dragged a chav off his train at King's Cross and said he wouldn't travel on his train. I am sure if he'd had time to think, he'd have realised the danger he put himself in, but it had the desired effect. The chav didn't try and get back on either.

 

[Greenback]

If I may ask a serious question? How does the training for becoming a guard/inspector prepare you for dealing with situations like these, where your passengers become aggressive? I am assuming that the TOCs, like banks, hospitals, schools, police, shops and other areas where you are dealing with the public, actually do include this in the training. Or am I wrong?

All of the training in the world cannot prepare you for when something actually happens. I've had conflict avoidance training with the police, yet I was still attacked (not whilst Iw as at work). Sometiems the signs you are supposed to see to warn you are simply not there. My training was all about body language, and controlling the situation but was ultimately for an office based situation. I sympathise with on board staff who are, usually, very much on their own!

Another problem with conflict avoidance has already been mentioned. It gives the impression that shouting, screaming and being threatening ultimately gets results.

 

[Oswyntail]

... My training was all about body language, and controlling the situation but was ultimately for an office based situation. I sympathise with on board staff who are, usually, very much on their own!....

That was what I would have guessed - and I too sympathise with the staff. There are levels of training for the different situations, and it is possible that the trainers are not doing what is required, or the TOCs are not asking for the right training. Which is why we hear these stories of inappropriate responses, when the staff have not been told what an appropriate, effective response is.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Another important part of conflict management is avoiding getting into agressive situations in the first place. It's actually more of a matter of common sence and courtesy than anything. If you go into a situation with an agressive attitude, you are far more likely to get an agressive response. One thing I was taught and always teach others is that you should always treat it as if the person does not know they are doing wrong. Requests are also more likely to get a positive response than orders. Friendlyness any sympathy go a long way. Your own attitude is particularly crucial when dealing with someone who is drunk, or is already angry (but not yet at you). Raising your voice is never a good idea, nor is using agressive, insulting or foul language. Patience is also very useful. If someone doesn't comply straight away try to think why, don't just assume they are deliberatly not complying. When someone is angry, don't decend to their level. Be the better person, and most of the time you'll get an apology and thanks. I know that one from both sides (I have to admit if i'm not in a good mood I can go in a little sharp, just ask my boss). Refusing to deal with someone just because they have a bad attitude will just make things worse.
Ultimatly, both customer facing staff and customers should remember 2 important rules. Treat others how you expect to be treated yourself and Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[jon0844]

The third rule they don't teach you at school, get a few kicks in when nobody is watching.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
Ultimatly, both customer facing staff and customers should remember 2 important rules. Treat others how you expect to be treated yourself and Two wrongs don't make a right.

Amen to that

 

[Helvellyn]

Firstly, the trains are run for everybody's benefit... Irrespective of the time of day. I try to avoid rush hour where possible, but sometimes that can't be the case. I have a pretty small buggy which is collapsable and make efforts to do so. The sad fact of this is that a lot of the trains on the network nowadays are insufficient for carrying things like buggies. SWT are my local TOC and it is often the luck of the draw as to whether a blue or a white Desiro turn up with the blue ones being good for parents and the white ones being terrible for parents. Remember luggage vans? They were good for stuff like that!!

Secondly, any station, whether it be NR or TFL have ticket barriers that are clearly indicated for people with luggage and buggies, and plenty of other barriers that are for people without additional paraphenalia... and YET... You all still insist on using the wide one and life difficult for those of us struggling with large objects. In a perfect world, the TOC's and TFL will turn people away from the wide gate if they don't fulfil the required criteria. The problem with this is that it would hinder you by ten seconds or so, and that just wouldn't do.

The reason a lot of people on National Rail go to the wide aisle gates is because there is a staff member usually stood there. Many want that gate opened for them because they don't want to (or can't be bothered) to put their ticket through the barrier. When you look at TfL the staff generally stand away from the wide aisle gates and people have to use the barriers themselves. Net effect? Wide aisle gates used by those they are in the main intended for, plus the canny user who recognises the natural aversion of passengers to use them (when there is no staff member stood there holding them open!).

The extra two carriages is what we need and the excuse that it is too expensive plays into the hands of the profit led industry. Returning to Swiss commuter trains there are also areas for people to have a meeting - 6/8 seats around a table, a meeting point so you can easily meet friends on the train, and many other innovative ideas.

Returning to the original point - provision of better secialised space on trains - if this was provided then everyone would be happy - commuters, staff, mums, granddads, children, disabled. At the moment the conflict caused by under-investment needs to be removed and a different style of service orientated railway developed.

How would this be achieved in the South? SWT for example simply have no more capacity to run extra trains into/out of Waterloo during the peaks. Major investement is needed to get the Windsor Lines operating as a 10-car railway, but on the Mainline many trains already run as 10-car and 12-car trains - the maximum the routes can take.

When they put 12-car outer suburban stock on the Portsmouth Line in place of 10-car long distance stock there was uproar from the commuters, even though it gave them more seats (a DfT requirement of the franchise). The London & South Eastern TOCs have to cater for the majority, which means their bread and butter of the able bodied commuter travelling to/from London in the peak. That means plenty of seats - at the expense of luggage stacks (let alone vans), bike spaces, buggie spaces, etc. You can get away with flexible space for off-peak use (see refurbished SWT 455s) on inner-suburban stock, but on outer suburban and long distance stock you need as many seats as possible so as to have as few people standing as possible.



I've noticed there is a trend to buy these all-terrain buggies (surprised Landrover aren't building any yet ) and to avoid folding them because, as others have said, quite a few people are carrying all sorts of stuff on them. I'm old enough to have been taken around in a pram when I was a baby, and my parents kept it for a few years so I remember seeing it when I was older. The part I went in (with folding hood to protect me from rain or sun) was able to be lifted out, and had carry handles. The metal frame then folded down flat. Result? Baby me could be lifted off the pram, put down and the pram itself folded up. I could be left fast asleep in the cot part, either on my parent's lap or placed on a seat.

If people still used prams they'd be more practical in that sense - fold the frame and keep baby effectively in his carry cot. But fold a buggy and you're literally left holding the baby! Fashion (for buggies) over practicality seem to have killed the pram, which in my view is better suited for use on public transport.


Unfortunately a vocal minority of parents with buggies - along with cyclists - seem to think they have priority over other public transport users, and that means the provision of lots of space for them that might never be used. It's not easy getting the balance right on our crowded rail system, but it's not helped by the selfish few who put normal bikes or baby buggies where they want and sod everyone else.

 

[90019]

(surprised Landrover aren't building any yet )

For a while, they did

 

[Drsatan]

How would this be achieved in the South? SWT for example simply have no more capacity to run extra trains into/out of Waterloo during the peaks. Major investement is needed to get the Windsor Lines operating as a 10-car railway, but on the Mainline many trains already run as 10-car and 12-car trains - the maximum the routes can take.

When they put 12-car outer suburban stock on the Portsmouth Line in place of 10-car long distance stock there was uproar from the commuters, even though it gave them more seats (a DfT requirement of the franchise).

The 450s were introduced in on Portsmouth Direct services during the rush hour to compensate for 444s being drafted onto SWML services following the withdrawal of the 442s. To compensate all of SWT's 458s were reintroduced into service. Although 3 450s have more seating capacity than 2 444s, the 450s were designed for outer-suburban use and IMO units with 3+2 seating and no tables aren't suited for journeys of more than one hour, namely because on long journeys some passengers (especially women) don't like sitting in the middle seat apparently.

No, the 442s should have remained on SWML services, and Southern should have ordered yet more electrostars to increase capacity.

 

[jopsuk]

The 450s were introduced in on Portsmouth Direct services during the rush hour to compensate for 444s being drafted onto SWML services following the withdrawal of the 442s. To compensate all of SWT's 458s were reintroduced into service. Although 3 450s have more seating capacity than 2 444s, the 450s were designed for outer-suburban use and IMO units with 3+2 seating and no tables aren't suited for journeys of more than one hour, namely because on long journeys some passengers (especially women) don't like sitting in the middle seat apparently.

No, the 442s should have remained on SWML services, and Southern should have ordered yet more electrostars to increase capacity.

Nah- SWT should have ordered enough 444s- though I'd agree Southern should have ordered more Electrostars

 

[ChrisCooper]

SWT did order enough 444s as they were intended to do the Portsmouth Fasts, replacing CEPs and VEPs and also allowing all the 442s to go onto Weymouths. They then over-ordered 450s (at the time) since they planned to replace the 458s (which might have gone for scrap). Between them, Southern and the DfT though it was instead decided to keep the 458s and re-introduce stored ones, transfering 450s onto Portsmouths, 444s onto Weymouths and withdrawing the 442s, other than a few which would end up with GEX to suplement their fleet. SWT couldn't order more 444s as the jigs were scrapped, so re-opening production would be very expensive. With GEX transfered to Southern, they and the DfT decided to extend to Brighton, needing more 442s, freeing up 377s for other services. With plans for 10 car trains on some SWT routes, the rest of the 442s may replace the 460s which would then be broken up to lengthen the 458s, and create a few more, with left-overs scrapped. Still not official that will happen though.
Southern could have ordered more Electrostars instead of using the 442s, but the 442s were already stored when they decided to use them.

 

[jon0844]

Wow! Given my first experience of a 'buggy' incident on a 313 to Moorgate, another one this morning.

First a lady got on with a buggy/pram and, as I was on a later train - off peak, it was pretty empty. She therefore put the buggy (and stood with it) to the far side of the vestibule (after a while these doors are never used again) so it wasn't in the way of anyone. She looked like she was initially going to fold it, but to be honest there was no need.

A few stops on and another got on. Another well dressed (spitting image of Fiona Philips) lady with a pram. I was in the carriage with the fold up seats for wheelchairs and what happened next was amazing.

She literally poked her head around and said 'Excuse me. I am not sure if you're aware but you're in the area reserved for buggies and you have to move'. The three people, including two elderly people, looked rather shocked but clearly too nervous to say anything or actually dispute her claim. I was sitting at the end of the carriage and even I could see the sign saying 'for wheelchairs' with a disclaimer that bicycles can use it WHEN NOT NEEDED by a wheelchair. Mention of buggies or prams? Nothing.

She then sat down and the other mother looked on rather shocked. I felt I couldn't step in, as to tell this arrogant mother that she can't tell people to move to take up the space for three people with a pram, would then look like an attack on the other mother (she hadn't folded her buggy either).

When I got up to alight at Old Street, I realised she'd taken the baby out anyway and the pram was just sitting there in front of the two tip-up seats. The other couple had moved, but now couldn't sit together.

I really, really, wanted to say something. She must have seen the sticker. How can she think that a buggy now takes priority over people - especially the elderly!

I'd love for someone to pull the CCTV from that train - but sadly there wouldn't be audio to fully appreciate the arrogance this woman demonstrated.

 

[Greenback]

This is another example of the appalling attitude that seems prevalent today amongst some parents - 'Me and my lovely children are much mor eimportnat than everyone else, and it's my inalienable right to do whatever I want because I have children'.

I'm sorry, but I would have said something to this woman, politely of course, just as I did when someone refused to move their laptop case from the seat enxt to them to allow anothe rperson to sit down. That 'person' claimed, rightly, that having a ticket did not guarantee a seat, I told him that his ticket didn;t guarantee him the right to two seats either! He moved the case!

 

[northwichcat]

Could be an idea for jonmorris to write a letter about it to a local paper and explain that elderley people have priorities on trains and mums with buggies do not and should be prepared to fold them if necessary. This would help make other passengers aware of the situation of she tries to do it again.

With London commuter trains I think the fact they use ticket gates at the main stations in London and join up multiple units without corridor connectors does make there seem like less of a staffed presence and more likely that the passengers will do as they please.

Similar to what Greenback said one day I was on a strengthened TPE service after a special event so it was a 8 car 158 which still had a number of people standing. When it reached Warrington a number of people alighted and a girl thought she could then take up two seats despite the fact that people were still standing. On that occasion being given a disapproving look by anyone and everyone made the girl change her mind.

 

[Greenback]

A letter to a local paper might open up a debate about the whole issue - this might then be taken up by the national media. I think that would be a good thing, especially if decent parents really don't realise how they can come across. I think in Jon;s example the woman could be said to have been polite, but mistaken, and may have honestly believed that it was a buggy space reserved only for the use of such contraptions! If this is in fact the case, then this needs to be made clear to everyone!!!

 

[jon0844]

Could be an idea for jonmorris to write a letter about it to a local paper and explain that elderley people have priorities on trains and mums with buggies do not and should be prepared to fold them if necessary. This would help make other passengers aware of the situation of she tries to do it again.

I don't fancy the wrath of the likes of mumsnet. Who would dare take them on?

To be honest, I would imagine the local press (even perhaps the nationals) would play safe and not risk the backlash. I really do think that it's spot on with the assessment that these people would play the victim.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't fancy the wrath of the likes of mumsnet. Who would dare take them on?

To be honest, I would imagine the local press (even perhaps the nationals) would play safe and not risk the backlash. I really do think that it's spot on with the assessment that these people would play the victim.

The thing with mumsnet and the Daily Mail is that the mum reported the conductor as responding to a question of what can she do about buggies with a solution of stop having kids.

If it's written in a way that makes it sound like the woman in question didn't do the right thing but she may have thought she was allowed to ask passengers to move and if you possibly put something in saying rail staff or passengers should be willing to help her with the buggy then it doesn't sound like your anti-parent that the Northern conductor was made to sound.

A local paper in Cheshire did make a letter questioning whether we should be tolerant to Muslims in a Christian country, their letter of the week so I think local papers will print anything and likely see it as a compliment if a national paper wants to publish a controversial article that the local paper publishes first.

 

[jon0844]

A paper will happily print a letter because they can use the standard disclaimer that it doesn't reflect the view or opinion of the publication. Then they can print all the hate mail that the original author receives, and seem balanced.

I really don't think a paper would ever dare take on mothers (imagine if she was a single mum) any more than a pensioner or an ethnic minority.

We've been talking about it here freely and openly, but I am not about to start a moral crusade and be slaughtered for it in the press. When I got my 'poo poo train' (their headline, not mine) story in the press about the ECML trains dumping sewage on rail staff and passengers on platforms, they wanted my photo to go with it. I managed to get them to run the story without it but I can already imagine how the story would look, be worded, and how it would be ME vs every mum in Britain!

 

[Greenback]

A well written letter would be published without a photo and often even without a name and address being published!

I do afree that it would be unlikely to provoke the same reaction as the Northern conductor's naive attempt at humour. All a letter would need to really is outline the situation and ask whether buggies do have the right to make other people move from their seats.

 

[jon0844]

I probably got the wrong end of the stick. As a journalist (but not in this field), I was thinking more along the lines of getting a story written about this as against a mere letter from 'disgusted of xxxx'.

No, I wouldn't expect a photo to go with a standard letter. However, for a local paper I doubt that many people would read it. Nothing would change and life would carry on.

There's a bigger story here and it's all about respect for others in general. However, we've all come to expect and accept it and just mutter about how it shouldn't be like that.