Buggies on trains

[Greenback]

No, of course you can't. But it seems to be the mindset of far too many that having a child entitles you to do whatever you want, and anyone who tells you otherwise is discriminating because of it.

Personally, I think buggies that can't be folded should be banned from public transport. For the folding themselves, a bit of discretion by the guard if it's not busy, but otherwise, they're either folded, or you pay for a ticket for it.

Sounds like a winning idea to me! It may be a minority of parents who have this mindset, but it is a very significant one!

 

[Multiple Unit]

oF course the people that started this whole Buggy Bus thing off was in Liverpoll CMT (Cowboys Marshallls & Texants) of the bus world gradully spread to the Railways even on the ELR i noticed a WOman get on the thumper unit with a pram in the saloon jsut shwos how far it spreads.

 

[LouJ]

There seem to be some very misplaced arguments in this thread. Children, including infants in buggies, have the same entitlement to travel as everyone else as do wheelchair users. That is a stautory entitlement that cannot be ignored. This means that they can travel when they want including rush hours.

To me this is not the issue - instead it is the perennial problem of the railway system having inadequate capacity to carry its diverse range of customers. An example - I regularly use the Birmingham to Liverpool London Midland service operated in theory by class 350/1 but nowadays invariably a 350/2 with 3 + 2 seating despite half the services being class 1 trains. Sadly there is no provision for luggaage (apart from limited overhead space) and very limited capacity for cycles and pushchairs, which is usually occupied by 'normal' passengers.

Let's go to the continent - where green issues are seen as important and rail travel for ALL is encouraged. I travelled on the Swiss system a few weeks ago where most trains have a carriage dedicated for cycles, pushchairs and wheelchairs. We are not talking about a single rack but a rack on one side of the carriage with enough room on some trains for 30 bikes. Opposite are seats for the cyclists. Cycle problem solved. Now to puchchairs - again a separate well signed area for parents with buggies and prams. An adjacent toilet with changing facilities and on some trains a play area!

This all boils down to service or profit. Sadly in the Uk it is the latter so the people who don't have buggies have to suffer the same as the people with. I am a granddad and take my two sons on trains. The concept of folding a buggie is totally out of the question. The boys are 8 and 18 months old. There is no way I can hold both and fold up the buggie and put it in the rack (if there is one of a suitable size). It is a practical impossibility. I care about the inconvenience to other passengers but would argue strongly if some jobsworthy (or passenger) said I had to fold the buggie and stow it. It is a practical impossibility. Also think of young mums with a small child - they only have one pair of hands - the concept of stowing buggies while holding on to a a child in your arms is dangerous and impractical. I speak with experience here as both of my daughters have struggled to use trains with their children.

What we need are better designed trains where the emphasis is not on capacity but provision of proper accommodation fit for the specific purpose of users. Other countries can do this so why can't we?

 

[Greenback]

LouJ, you are correct that the rail system is based on profit not service. That is a major drawback in my opinion. However, given that this is what we have, there ar eissues around the use of buggies on our overcrowded trains. You use terms like miserable and jobsworths, but there is no doubt that other travellers ARE inconvenienced by unbfolded buggies, which block aisles, and doors. It can also be very painful to be struck by one of these things, whilst the owner is trying to manoeuvre it down a crowded platform. The biggest problem as I see it, is the attitude of some parents (and grandparents) who don't care about other people at all, and are as rude and obnoxious as the market researcher in the OP.

At the end of the day we don't live in a perfect world, far from it, and who is expected to pay for the longer trains we would all like to see?

 

[Ferret]

There seem to be some very misplaced arguments in this thread. Children, including infants in buggies, have the same entitlement to travel as everyone else as do wheelchair users. That is a stautory entitlement that cannot be ignored. This means that they can travel when they want including rush hours.

To me this is not the issue - instead it is the perennial problem of the railway system having inadequate capacity to carry its diverse range of customers. An example - I regularly use the Birmingham to Liverpool London Midland service operated in theory by class 350/1 but nowadays invariably a 350/2 with 3 + 2 seating despite half the services being class 1 trains. Sadly there is no provision for luggaage (apart from limited overhead space) and very limited capacity for cycles and pushchairs, which is usually occupied by 'normal' passengers.

Let's go to the continent - where green issues are seen as important and rail travel for ALL is encouraged. I travelled on the Swiss system a few weeks ago where most trains have a carriage dedicated for cycles, pushchairs and wheelchairs. We are not talking about a single rack but a rack on one side of the carriage with enough room on some trains for 30 bikes. Opposite are seats for the cyclists. Cycle problem solved. Now to puchchairs - again a separate well signed area for parents with buggies and prams. An adjacent toilet with changing facilities and on some trains a play area!

This all boils down to service or profit. Sadly in the Uk it is the latter so the people who don't have buggies have to suffer the same as the people with. I am a granddad and take my two sons on trains. The concept of folding a buggie is totally out of the question. The boys are 8 and 18 months old. There is no way I can hold both and fold up the buggie and put it in the rack (if there is one of a suitable size). It is a practical impossibility. I care about the inconvenience to other passengers but would argue strongly if some jobsworthy (or passenger) said I had to fold the buggie and stow it. It is a practical impossibility. Also think of young mums with a small child - they only have one pair of hands - the concept of stowing buggies while holding on to a a child in your arms is dangerous and impractical. I speak with experience here as both of my daughters have struggled to use trains with their children.

What we need are better designed trains where the emphasis is not on capacity but provision of proper accommodation fit for the specific purpose of users. Other countries can do this so why can't we?

Some interesting points raised here, though I fundamentally disagree with the idea that any Guard who needs a pushchair collapsing is a jobsworth. Like it or not, we have to work with what we are given. Personally I'm happy for parents to use the wheelchair space if it is available, and then there's always the bike space, and the associated luggage area on a Voyager, or the TGS on a HST. First Class on the other hand is a straight no - the customers in there have paid a massive premium to be able to relax or work in peace. As an absolute resort I'd ask somebody to collapse the pushchair, but if they refused then I'm afraid they'd have to leave the train.

I do find myself agreeing with those who have suggested rush hour be avoided. Hell, I hate travelling in the rush hour on my own - can't imagine how awkward it would be with a young child, and I wouldn't even attempt it, out of consideration for everyone's stress levels including my own!

 

[northwichcat]

There seem to be some very misplaced arguments in this thread. Children, including infants in buggies, have the same entitlement to travel as everyone else as do wheelchair users. That is a stautory entitlement that cannot be ignored. This means that they can travel when they want including rush hours.

TOCs wouldn't be being unreasonable if they were to say under 5s only travel for free at off-peak times.

Sadly there is no provision for luggaage (apart from limited overhead space) and very limited capacity for cycles and pushchairs, which is usually occupied by 'normal' passengers.

Shouldn't the issue always be first come first served so if a Liverpool bound train leaves Runcorn, for instance, with so many people standing that some standees are occupying the cycle/luggage space that someone with a bike at Liverpool South Parkway would be told to wait for the next service or use Merseyrail.

Let's go to the continent - where green issues are seen as important and rail travel for ALL is encouraged. I travelled on the Swiss system a few weeks ago where most trains have a carriage dedicated for cycles, pushchairs and wheelchairs. We are not talking about a single rack but a rack on one side of the carriage with enough room on some trains for 30 bikes. Opposite are seats for the cyclists. Cycle problem solved. Now to puchchairs - again a separate well signed area for parents with buggies and prams. An adjacent toilet with changing facilities and on some trains a play area!

This all boils down to service or profit.

Now imagine if every UK TOC was to do this. We'd need 2 carriage trains replaced by 8 carriage trains and then a lot of platform rebuilding work and compulsory land purchase orders to extend some stations. Should the UK tax payer be made to fund all that and if not where would the money come from? Switzerland is generally a rich country and people are happy to pay £5 for a pint so unless we become a country full of rich people we aren't on the same level as Switzerland.

There is no way I can hold both and fold up the buggie and put it in the rack (if there is one of a suitable size). It is a practical impossibility. I care about the inconvenience to other passengers but would argue strongly if some jobsworthy (or passenger) said I had to fold the buggie and stow it.

What we need are better designed trains where the emphasis is not on capacity but provision of proper accommodation fit for the specific purpose of users. Other countries can do this so why can't we?

What if the conductor asked you to go to the back door and then helped you get it on the train and fold it? I've seen Northern conductors do this.

You also need to note that some parents don't use the best place to sit their unfolded buggy. One day I was travelling on a Buxton to Manchester service which was being run by an ex-FNW 150, with 3+2 seating and the seats facing each other. A woman with a pram - not buggy - boarded the train she choose to put the pram on so it her and her pram took up six seats: see http://blinky.fotopic.net/p55680000.html for seat arrangement when not too far away (in the same carriage) was empty space next to the bench seat opposite the toilet: http://blinky.fotopic.net/p55680002.html (Not my pictures)

 

[313103]

I see this every day and i have come to the conclusion that passengers today do not know how to use public transport. You get on any double deck bus in London today and you will find two or three buggies on the lower deck and when the bus stops at the next bus stop and someone else tries to get on with a buggy and the driver says no the drivers often get abuse from the buggy user left at the bus stop. Another thing that is a complete pain is the amount of people who will stand downstairs packed like sardines whilst upstairs 30 odd seats are available therefore the bus is leaving passengers behind whilst the bus is only half full. They have no manners and no behaviour.

When it comes to trains the some attitudes tend to be applied, passengers with four by four buggies taking up the space and blocking seats and taking up valuable space. When i am working these trains i use the common sense attitude and say nothing as i belive people should not have to told how to travel on public transport, the only i will say something is if someone complains to me otherwise for fear of being a JOBSWORTH i say and do nothing.

People keep saying how difficult it is to carry children on public transport, rather strange that when i was 8 i had a sister of 6, a sister of 4 and a brother of one yet we all managed sometimes without my father being there to cope and i don't remember my mum complaining and moaning that she had 4 kids so everyone should move for her. The one thing my mother did was think what she was doing before we left the front door of the house so if we was going to use the bus (often) tube not so often or train (rare) the pram stayed at home and the fold up push chair came out.

Why do people need to be told what to do when travelling on public transport?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Here in 3rd rail land the 455s, 375s and 377s have a large disabled space which is also marked ( at least on the SWT 455s ) as being available for buggies ( and bikes off peak! ).

But the number of people who just don't use that space, even when it is empty, and load the buggy through one of the other doors is unbelievable...

Part of this particular problem may be that it is not easy to see where these spaces are when the train comes in - maybe some kind of flashing light above the relevant door might help, but only if it is flashing before the train comes to a stop. ( The livery markings and indicator stickers currently applied around the doors to identify this area are just not easily visible ). However, this still happens at termini - I have seen people with buggies walk right past an empty designated doorway and still load up at the other end of the carriage or in the next carriage! )

I think in the Centro area things are better; I have seen clearly labelled posters on the stations showing exactly which door in the 323s should be used. Is there anyone here from the Birmingham area who can say if this helps or if people still go to the next doorway or another carriage?

 

[Greenback]

I see this every day and i have come to the conclusion that passengers today do not know how to use public transport. You get on any double deck bus in London today and you will find two or three buggies on the lower deck and when the bus stops at the next bus stop and someone else tries to get on with a buggy and the driver says no the drivers often get abuse from the buggy user left at the bus stop. Another thing that is a complete pain is the amount of people who will stand downstairs packed like sardines whilst upstairs 30 odd seats are available therefore the bus is leaving passengers behind whilst the bus is only half full. They have no manners and no behaviour.

When it comes to trains the some attitudes tend to be applied, passengers with four by four buggies taking up the space and blocking seats and taking up valuable space. When i am working these trains i use the common sense attitude and say nothing as i belive people should not have to told how to travel on public transport, the only i will say something is if someone complains to me otherwise for fear of being a JOBSWORTH i say and do nothing.

People keep saying how difficult it is to carry children on public transport, rather strange that when i was 8 i had a sister of 6, a sister of 4 and a brother of one yet we all managed sometimes without my father being there to cope and i don't remember my mum complaining and moaning that she had 4 kids so everyone should move for her. The one thing my mother did was think what she was doing before we left the front door of the house so if we was going to use the bus (often) tube not so often or train (rare) the pram stayed at home and the fold up push chair came out.

Why do people need to be told what to do when travelling on public transport?

Because, as you point out, people these days generally have less consideration and worse manners than they used to. This has been fed by a society that promotes rights more than it promotes responsibilities. Yes, children have a right to travel on public transport, but their parents and grandparents also have a responsibility to ensure that they do not restrict the rights of others whislt doing so. These rights include the right to board and alight, pas along the train and not be smacked on the ankle by the buggy!

Here in 3rd rail land the 455s, 375s and 377s have a large disabled space which is also marked ( at least on the SWT 455s ) as being available for buggies ( and bikes off peak! ).

But the number of people who just don't use that space, even when it is empty, and load the buggy through one of the other doors is unbelievable...

Part of this particular problem may be that it is not easy to see where these spaces are when the train comes in - maybe some kind of flashing light above the relevant door might help, but only if it is flashing before the train comes to a stop. ( The livery markings and indicator stickers currently applied around the doors to identify this area are just not easily visible ). However, this still happens at termini - I have seen people with buggies walk right past an empty designated doorway and still load up at the other end of the carriage or in the next carriage! )

I think in the Centro area things are better; I have seen clearly labelled posters on the stations showing exactly which door in the 323s should be used. Is there anyone here from the Birmingham area who can say if this helps or if people still go to the next doorway or another carriage?

I have some sympathy when it;s difficult to find out where the correct places are tos tow bikes and buggies. In my area, it;s almost impossible to know where the luggage rack will be on the ATW 175's, which results ina lot of heavily laden people traipsing up and down the carriage having got on at the wrong end. Much more needs to be done to highlight where to board for these sorts of facilities.

 

[haloatco]

I've sat and followed this thread for a while and as a father of a two year old I've been stirred enough to add my thoughts on this subject and hopefully add some perspective on this discussion.

Firstly, the trains are run for everybody's benefit... Irrespective of the time of day. I try to avoid rush hour where possible, but sometimes that can't be the case. I have a pretty small buggy which is collapsable and make efforts to do so. The sad fact of this is that a lot of the trains on the network nowadays are insufficient for carrying things like buggies. SWT are my local TOC and it is often the luck of the draw as to whether a blue or a white Desiro turn up with the blue ones being good for parents and the white ones being terrible for parents. Remember luggage vans? They were good for stuff like that!!

Secondly, any station, whether it be NR or TFL have ticket barriers that are clearly indicated for people with luggage and buggies, and plenty of other barriers that are for people without additional paraphenalia... and YET... You all still insist on using the wide one and life difficult for those of us struggling with large objects. In a perfect world, the TOC's and TFL will turn people away from the wide gate if they don't fulfil the required criteria. The problem with this is that it would hinder you by ten seconds or so, and that just wouldn't do.

Thirdly, not all of us belong to the 'cult of the child'. Much in the same way that we don't all belong to the 'cult of eating Burger King on the train', the 'cult of leaving your crap everywhere on the train', the 'cult of using your mobile phone in the quiet zone', the 'cult of blocking the doors and delaying everybody else', the 'cult of listening to your mp3 player too loud', the 'cult of putting your work bag on the only seat remaining on the train so that nobody else can use it', and the 'cult of tutting when somebody else wants to get off from the window seat when you are sat in the aisle seat'.

I think what you will find, is that if we all show a little bit of respect and consideration for each other then we will all get along just fine...

And finally, if you were the woman who told me that I wasn't allowed to take my pushchair across the footbridge at London Bridge the other day... You were wrong. No sign = no restriction. I'm perfectly capable of handling my pushchair in a safe and controlled fashion thank you and amazingly even carrying it plus child up and down stairs.


Actually, I've just realised I've gone from trying to have perspective to having a bit of a rant, so here I will redress the balance.
- To the nice man who chatted to me going up the Jubilee line escalator at Waterloo. It was nice meeting you and I hope you enjoy being a grandad.
- To the South West Trains guard who insisted on helping me off with the buggy at Guildford the other week... I thank you.
- To the TFL lady on the tube at Charing Cross the other day who took a shine to my son and then helped me up the stairs with him.. I thank you.
- To the man on the SWT service from Waterloo the other day who moved his bike so that I could put the folded pushchair in it's place... I thank you.


See, it's not all bad

 

[Greenback]

A nice post there Mark! I wouldn't ban all buggies, I would just like to see more people like yourself, who are considerate of others and do all they can to make the journey as pleasant as possible for everyone involved. I just don;t thnik there is a place for the massive monstrosities that you see about!

 

[northwichcat]

Secondly, any station, whether it be NR or TFL have ticket barriers that are clearly indicated for people with luggage and buggies, and plenty of other barriers that are for people without additional paraphenalia... and YET... You all still insist on using the wide one and life difficult for those of us struggling with large objects. In a perfect world, the TOC's and TFL will turn people away from the wide gate if they don't fulfil the required criteria. The problem with this is that it would hinder you by ten seconds or so, and that just wouldn't do.

Why should that be the case all the time. I don't know what it's like in SWT land but from my personal experience at busy times there are very few people with suitcases, babies buggies or in wheelchairs and station staff are there actively encouraging people to use ALL barriers to get people in and out of the station ASAP.

I don't know if I might have misintrepted your post but you seem to be demanding an exclusive gate for people who may struggle so that they don't have to wait to exit the station.

 

[Greenback]

The idea of the barriers is that some are wider to make it easier for certain people to use, they are not meant to be exclusively for people with heavy luggage, wheelchairs, bikes, buggies or anything else

 

[Dennis]

Important notice to all members of customer facing staff; never ask a bloke travelling with a buggy to fold it - he will be completely incapable of doing so.

 

[royaloak]

This all boils down to service or profit.

No it doesnt, it boils down to the best use of available space.

Sadly in the Uk it is the latter so the people who don't have buggies have to suffer the same as the people with. I am a granddad and take my two sons on trains.

Every business is in it for the profit.

The concept of folding a buggie is totally out of the question.

Why, other people have been managing it for decades!

The boys are 8 and 18 months old. There is no way I can hold both and fold up the buggie and put it in the rack (if there is one of a suitable size). It is a practical impossibility.

Why do you need to hold the 8 year old, at that age he should be able to stand with you or even help. If you buy a suitable sized buggie it will fit in ANY overhead rack.

I care about the inconvenience to other passengers but would argue strongly if some jobsworthy (or passenger) said I had to fold the buggie and stow it. It is a practical impossibility. Also think of young mums with a small child - they only have one pair of hands - the concept of stowing buggies while holding on to a a child in your arms is dangerous and impractical. I speak with experience here as both of my daughters have struggled to use trains with their children.

Again other people have managed it for decades, it is only the advent of these stupidly large buggies (that the owners haven't bothered to read the instruction manual for) that the problems have started, most buggies CAN be folded its just that the owner doesn't know how/ cant be bothered to do it. If they cannot manage to travel safely then maybe they shouldn't travel!

What we need are better designed trains where the emphasis is not on capacity but provision of proper accommodation fit for the specific purpose of users. Other countries can do this so why can't we?

Rose tinted glasses I think, look at any metro area of any large city in the rush hour and they all have the same problems of capacity as we do. If you want capacity maybe we should take all the seats out and then there would be much more room for everybody.

 

[haloatco]

To make it easier for which people to use? The sign on the barrier indicates pushchairs, wheelchairs and luggage. Are they not the target market for the barriers then? Why not make all of them wide barriers and then this resolves the issue? My point about this is not a demand for exclusive gates for people with various items in tow... It's more to do with how people use these facilities in an appropriate fashion.. For example, I don't use the normal ones because I suspect the pushchair won't fit through them which in turn will inconvenience a number of people behind me. In return, I expect a little bit of a human response to my situation by people not using the wide gate unless they really need to and instead using one of the countless other gates. Do you see where I'm coming from with this?? I really have no choice with how I pass through the gate, but you do and you can actually make a difference to somebody's day.

The thing is with all this, is it's about being decent to each other and respecting each others space, and the ability to go about your business as unhindered as possible. Just because you use the 08:12 from Milton Keynes to Euston every day of your life does not give you exclusivity over a mother or a father taking their child on the train, or a disabled person, or an elderly person, or anybody with any kind of minority position. The people who are saying that these groups shouldn't be allowed are walking a difficult road and clearly are not parents. When the day comes that you are, you will have a different perspective on it.. Trust me, it happened to me!!

I do however, agree with you to a degree about the larger buggies and the amount of space they take up, but I do have an element of sympathy with the people who have to manhandle these things in unfriendly spaces. For example, there are still loads of places on the tube and at NR stations that don't have lifts and just have escalators or stairs. Amazingly, these people are entitled to be outdoors too and travel just like the rest of us so why don't we actually show them a bit of sympathy for a change. I mean it's not YOU that has to carry/push/manhandle the buggy is it?

The problem with the UK nowadays is that we have gone health and safety crazy and that every single item is seen as a threat. Here's the great news about this... every single item on planet earth IS actually a threat. People can get injured/killed/maimed on just about anything given the right conditions and time, but do we get a full health and safety brief every time we use the escalators? Do we have to sign off our individual safety accountabilities every time we "Mind The Gap"? Of course not!! Buggies and pushchairs are no more a hazard than a lot of the things that other people carry on the tube/train e.g. guitars, umbrellas, sharp-cornered briefcases, dogs, large rucksacks, parcels, computer printers, TV's, bikes, etc.... "I'm sorry sir, you are going to have to leave the train unless you can fold your cello down".

Finally, let me tell you why I take my son on the train/tube... I am a massive railway enthusiast. I have been for all my life. I am a signalman at the RH&DR, a steam driver at the EVLR, a pretty well known railway photographer, and a former spotter. And the joy I get from these things, I want to share with my son and have him experience what I did when I was growing up. It clearly works, because he can do a pretty convincing impression of a Romney loco.

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure you can, or should, put people with a buggy in the same category as someone in a wheelchair who would almost certainly love to be able to step out and fold it up - or not have one at all.

And, the reason the gates aren't all wide is obvious; you can get more gates in if they're narrower. One or two wide gates are just fine.

But they're all there for all to use. I usually rush to a wide gate purely because a lot of people don't use them and it saves me time. Not so much at my local station where there are few gates and all are used, but look at a tube station and see how people naturally avoid them.

They are not reserved for people who need them, but are obviously usable only by those that do. I could get just as frustrated with people in front who have chosen 'my chosen gate' as against one next to it - or hover around looking confused. You just bite your lip, curse to yourself and life goes on. It hardly affects the outcome of the day - you've forgotten about it before the gate has even closed for the next person.

I would say that going forward, I do think rolling stock - EMU or DMU design - should perhaps have a larger space for bikes and/or buggies, with tip up seats. This would, in turn, encourage more use of bikes. Of course, if that area became full up of bikes or buggies, people with a bike or buggy would have to wait for the next service - just as any one of us would have to wait if the train was simply full of people. I would imagine this would be an extra car that is always part of the train. That way there's no loss of seats and little reason to complain.

Until that happens, bikes must be folded and I personally think the same should apply to buggies. It obviously does most of the time too, as I can't say I've really experienced the situation many times before - unlike bikes that block aisles and vestibules all the time (and often during the restricted periods, given poor enforcement).

FCC has just produced new posters with images and a detailed map with restrictions, but I still see bikes during peak times and people even take bikes on the Northern City Line where I'm not sure you can ever take them?

As I see it, people ignore the rules and if they're told to abide by them then they just call the person in authority a jobsworth. As my journey showed, people will side with the 'victim' that is anything but.

 

[LouJ]

Now imagine if every UK TOC was to do this. We'd need 2 carriage trains replaced by 8 carriage trains and then a lot of platform rebuilding work and compulsory land purchase orders to extend some stations. Should the UK tax payer be made to fund all that and if not where would the money come from? Switzerland is generally a rich country and people are happy to pay £5 for a pint so unless we become a country full of rich people we aren't on the same level as Switzerland.

An interesting view but again down to the concept of service versus profit. I had the privilidge of meeting the manager responsible for commuter capacity in Zurich - rather interestingly he said their development plans were based on the concept of a seat for every passenger at peak times! Also bear in mind that we could be a rich country too but our governments tend to waste money on rubbish (millennium dome etc etc etc etc) and get involved in wars (Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan etc).

The extra two carriages is what we need and the excuse that it is too expensive plays into the hands of the profit led industry. Returning to Swiss commuter trains there are also areas for people to have a meeting - 6/8 seats around a table, a meeting point so you can easily meet friends on the train, and many other innovative ideas.

Too often UK railways show little intertest in their customers - this I believe is a cultural issue in that the Brits put up with what they are given. The new order should be improvement in provision at whatever cost as railways in the future could well be our only choice of travel. I put up with poor service delivery standards on British railways - this has improved but nearly enough.

Returning to the original point - provision of better secialised space on trains - if this was provided then everyone would be happy - commuters, staff, mums, granddads, children, disabled. At the moment the conflict caused by under-investment needs to be removed and a different style of service orientated railway developed.

 

[haloatco]

A great post LouJ. Having experienced the Swiss rail network a few years ago I completely agree with you on how innovative their approach is. Sadly, this country is all about business and profit nowadays and not really about service and until that ethos changes (and laws on how CEO's are to manage shareholder expectations) then we are stuck with inferior everything from the TOC's against the backdrop of rising fares well above rates of inflation.

 

[northwichcat]

The extra two carriages is what we need and the excuse that it is too expensive plays into the hands of the profit led industry. Returning to Swiss commuter trains there are also areas for people to have a meeting - 6/8 seats around a table, a meeting point so you can easily meet friends on the train, and many other innovative ideas.

I think you might have mis-intrepted what I meant. A lot of local stations in the North of England have platforms long enough for 4 or 6 carriages and the peak period sees overcrowded 4 carriage trains, so to get everyone a seat at peak times we would need at least 6 carriage trains for local trains. There was the mention of space for 30 cycles and a dedicated children's play area, this would likely need at least an extra carriage, meaning 7 or 8 carriage trains replacing 4 carriage trains.

This would require extending around platforms at around 500 stations in just the North of England.

 

[Donny Dave]

Personally, I don't mind if people travel with lots of luggage and/or buggies, as long as they are reasonable and considerate about it. Any attitude from them however, and they get the same back from me I'm afraid.

Oh word of warning for those using East Coast services on the 24th and 28th May. I'll be going for a holiday with my family in Scotland, including my 2 nieces, so there will be lots of luggage and a buggy. However, I'll be last on and first of the train at Scunthorpe, Doncaster and York (wonderful joined up thinking on the railways here, can't get a direct Doncaster - Edinburgh service at the times I want), and between York and Edinburgh, as much luggage as possible plus the buggy will be safely stowed away, same for the return (except I'll be changing at Newcastle and Doncaster instead).

 

[royaloak]

(wonderful joined up thinking on the railways here, can't get a direct Doncaster - Edinburgh service at the times I want)

Terribly sorry perhaps you could forward all your travel plans for the next 12 months so we can ensure we provide trains at the time you require!

For those without a sense of humour, that was a joke by the way.

 

[northwichcat]

A lot of mums are posting negative comments about conductors on this site: http://www.madeformums.com/mums-and-dads/mum-told-to-stop-having-kids-by-train-conductor/5661.html

 

[ukrob]

A lot of mums are posting negative comments about conductors on this site: http://www.madeformums.com/mums-and-dads/mum-told-to-stop-having-kids-by-train-conductor/5661.html

Apparently it is ok for the mums to call people names but not guards/conductors.

Hypocrites.

 

[Oswyntail]

Apparently it is ok for the mums to call people names but not guards/conductors.

Hypocrites.

The guards/conductors are paid to handle the public, and this includes mums (as well as other, less reasonable, groups). It's their job and they are trained to do it, but they are failing (in that one area) and merit criticism.
The mums contributing to that site are generally simple members of the public who apparently have come up against poor customer service (which they have paid for), and are criticising those responsible.
No hypocrisy whatever.

 

[ukrob]

The guards/conductors are paid to handle the public, and this includes mums (as well as other, less reasonable, groups). It's their job and they are trained to do it, but they are failing (in that one area) and merit criticism.
The mums contributing to that site are generally simple members of the public who apparently have come up against poor customer service (which they have paid for), and are criticising those responsible.
No hypocrisy whatever.

So the person saying that she would of slapped the guard is being perfectly reasonable and responsible in your world?

No matter what a guard says to a passenger, physical violence like that is not acceptable in a civilised world, of which I assume you are a part of.

I will criticise whoever I like, just as they can. It doesn't mean I can't have an opinion, nor does it mean people have to agree with it.

 

[royaloak]

They may be being paid to do a job, but I didnt realise that being verbally abused was part of that job!
They may be guards but they are still human beings and these mothers should be speaking to other people as they themselves want to be spoken to. If they dont want to be sworn at then they shouldnt swear at people first, simple really!
Anybody swears at me gets sworn at back, if you cant take it you shouldnt dish it out, but then these lot think the word owes them so you cant expect much else can you!

 

[Oswyntail]

They may be being paid to do a job, but I didnt realise that being verbally abused was part of that job!....

Well, in a way, yes it is. If a situation "blows up" then it is their job, in the interests of all the other passengers, to keep it as calm as possible. Exchanging curses does not help in this. Nor, if threatened with violence, should they resort to violence, or any other escalation. This is the challenge of any public-facing job.

 

[ukrob]

Well, in a way, yes it is. If a situation "blows up" then it is their job, in the interests of all the other passengers, to keep it as calm as possible. Exchanging curses does not help in this. Nor, if threatened with violence, should they resort to violence, or any other escalation. This is the challenge of any public-facing job.

Which is totally turning around the fact that it was these 'mums' who have mentioned violence, not rail staff.

 

[royaloak]

So the guard confronts somebody who then gets abusive (in 99.9% of cases the passenger gets abusive first), the guard then-
A/ returns the abuse and is in the wrong
B/ walks away and is wrong

so what is the guard supposed to do?

and don't come out with "remain professional" bull, I mean in the real world!