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Buggies, luggage and bicycles
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Prairie_5542
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The National Rail conditions of carriage give a maximum dimesnions allowed on luggage.
Are you talking about pushchairs that can be folded?
More to the point why is it not enforced?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Let's look at two hypothetical examples from my local station of Knutsford where there have been issues with too many passengers trying to take bikes on the same train.
Passenger A wants to take their bike to Delamere Forest. The train is busy and there are already 2 bikes on board and the guard says no.
Passenger B wants to take a suitcase with them for their weekend trip to London. They cannot arrange a lift to Macclesfield or Wilmslow to avoid travelling on the local train.
Passenger A has multiple options available to them:
1. Leave their bike in the cycle storage at Knutsford and hire a bike at Delamere Forest.
2. Get a refund on their ticket and cycle to Delamere Forest.
3. Wait for the next train.
4. Abandon the trip altogether and try again another time.
Passenger B doesn't have options 1 or 2 available to them. If they have an Advance ticket option 3 isn't available either. Then if they have a hotel booked then option 4 isn't viable either.
As another case in point I caught the 17:09 Manchester-Chester service last night after the previous service had been cancelled and was operated by a Merseytravel 142. There were a few people on board with small suitcases - that didn't cause an issue. However, with the number of standees I doubt you could have safely manoeuvred a bike through the doors in to the bike space.
Passenger B could also get a taxi or possibly a coach or bus or airplane (admittedly an expensive option) depending on where they are and the journey being undertaken. These options are not available to passenger A.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
If passenger B has an Advance ticket then the slower bus (assuming their is an alternative bus route) is not an option even if the bus driver doesn't refuse to carry them because of their luggage. If the ticket office is closed or the station is unstaffed and the passenger doesn't have a local taxi company phone number or doesn't have a phone signal, how will they book a taxi at such short notice?
Why is it not possible for passenger A to have an advance ticket but no bike reservation?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I gave two hypothetical examples for rail use from my local station. The long-distance passengers are more likely to have suitcases than bikes. The short-distance passengers are more likely to have bikes than suitcases. A lot of the rural stations in the North that provide a nearby biker's paradise have very few Advance tickets for journeys to/from them and the ones available are for long distance services.
Prairie_5542
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Normally they would have said that they intended to take a bike with them and reserved this at the same time!?
Possibly a rant...but what gets me is when one particular female guard on East Coast wanted to make sure I had a reservation for bike to be put in the DVT which was empty; this happened on two separate occasions...but the train was to leave in just over 6 or 7 mins, but with a 10 minute queue in the ticket office.
DVT was empty of bikes and if somebody wanted to put luggage in there - sure, no reservation needed! Bike? No - sod off to the ticket office where you definately will miss my train.
Why didn't I have one before? Well because I bought a Super Off-Peak ticket when starting my journey, with an easy 15 minutes between transferring from St P to the cross.
So watch out if you are on east coast as you might need to dodge this absolute haggered old witch!
DVT was empty of bikes and if somebody wanted to put luggage in there - sure, no reservation needed! Bike? No - sod off to the ticket office where you definately will miss my train.
Why didn't I have one before? Well because I bought a Super Off-Peak ticket when starting my journey, with an easy 15 minutes between transferring from St P to the cross.
So watch out if you are on east coast as you might need to dodge this absolute haggered old witch!
I think it depends on the pushchair. Small ones that can be easily folded away aren't really a problem and I see no reason for them needing a reservation. With the huge ATV type ones however (that are bigger than most suitcases!) I think there is an argument to be had that they should be reserved first.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Fold able pushchairs are not but some mums try to take the larger prams on trains and then complain when they are refused travel.
kieron
Established Member
They could do (and you can even book cycle reservations on-line if you're careful). You can't reserve a cycle space on any train which calls at Knutsford, though.
I do notice that a passenger with an Advance ticket who chooses not to travel as he can't board his intended train is entitled to a full refund with no fees. As such, the passenger who cannot board his train and cancels both train and hotel reservations as a result could actually be better off than the person who chooses not to use an Anytime ticket to Delamere for the same reason.
I don't know how you'd be treated if you turned up some time later in Macclesfield with an Advance ticket and a sob story, though.
The one big advantage a cyclist has in the scenario mentioned is that you can leave a bicycle in Knutsford station for a couple of days and reasonably expect it to be there when you return (although you may find it hard to put a bike in the rack and return before the train goes). You'd need to find somewhere to put a suitcase yourself.
SS4
Established Member
Short Version: It would be terrible PR.
Long Version: Cyclists already have a pretty bad reputation in this country (ask most drivers) and their numbers are small so incidents regarding cyclists are pretty rare. Buggies are common as is luggage - especially in the holiday season. If you deny or charge for a buggy (even a tank sized one) it causes outrage and would be common because the papers would twist it as the fascist railway harassing the hard-working family unit of Middle England ignoring the fact they only exist in nostalgia-land. It doesn't help that young children are seen as angels who are infinitely cute and can do no wrong (thank you natural selection)
edit: Reservations would be a wonderful idea but as you can probably guess the ones that would make the most noise would think that didn't apply to them as though it their birth right to force others out the way for their offspring. Whilst expected by good ol' natural selection (protect one's genes in the next generation) human behaviour is at the point where it should be overridden.
Small buggies and smallish cases I have no issue with and large ones are not too bad if the parent/owner is considerate and doesn't block the passageway. It's the Panzerkampfwagen style buggies that are annoying.
still an edit: NXWM buses have had a rule since May 2011 that only two unfolded buggies may be carried on the bus. Only twice have I seen it enforced.
Long Version: Cyclists already have a pretty bad reputation in this country (ask most drivers) and their numbers are small so incidents regarding cyclists are pretty rare. Buggies are common as is luggage - especially in the holiday season. If you deny or charge for a buggy (even a tank sized one) it causes outrage and would be common because the papers would twist it as the fascist railway harassing the hard-working family unit of Middle England ignoring the fact they only exist in nostalgia-land. It doesn't help that young children are seen as angels who are infinitely cute and can do no wrong (thank you natural selection)
edit: Reservations would be a wonderful idea but as you can probably guess the ones that would make the most noise would think that didn't apply to them as though it their birth right to force others out the way for their offspring. Whilst expected by good ol' natural selection (protect one's genes in the next generation) human behaviour is at the point where it should be overridden.
Small buggies and smallish cases I have no issue with and large ones are not too bad if the parent/owner is considerate and doesn't block the passageway. It's the Panzerkampfwagen style buggies that are annoying.
still an edit: NXWM buses have had a rule since May 2011 that only two unfolded buggies may be carried on the bus. Only twice have I seen it enforced.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Hotels don't always refund in full if you cancel your reservation a few hours before when you are due to arrive, unless you paid a more expensive flexible rate.
So you might get your £15 Advance ticket fare back but lose your £80 hotel room cost.
Or a better question - why does our current rolling stock not adequately cope for these items that people wish to bring with them.
I remember when all trains had guards vans and could easily transport them.
This is IMO the only real downside to independently arranging your holiday as opposed to the traditional package holiday of old and a lot of insurance company's still seem to think 90% of the population wouldn't dream of leaving the country unless they are on such a package.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Because Gold Cards on seats are worth more and there aren't enough of them.
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I believe that Lothian Buses...........
AlexS
Established Member
Not necessarily - the look of horror when you suggest not so yummy chav mummy with her brood of squawking kids should fold her pushchair would shatter a camera lense. Not only must they be carried it seems, they should be able to be stuffed in every vestibule door and wheelchair space, causing delay when they have to be removed for things like refreshment trolleys and wheelchair users to board. Taking the child out of said battletank-like contrivance so it can be dumped out of the way is apparently not an option.
Lewisham2221
Established Member
How about the ones who fight their way on board with said monster truck style buggy, only to then remove the child but leave the buggy taking up space that could be used by somebody else?
eastdyke
Established Member
Why the disrespectful attribution to an EC Guard doing her job?
Bicycle reservations are compulsory on EC so that those wishing to travel will have a guaranteed space at the station where they join the train.
There are some other conditions as well:
IME no one ever folds up their pushchair when boarding a train, or bus for that matter. Only the other week I had to clamber over someone's pushchair on a 395 because they had thoughtfully left it blocking the aisle by the doorway.
And the number of cyclists is growing all the time.
A bike isn't luxury if you need it to get where you're going.
How about we ask cyclists about car drivers? Which category is it that is responsible for most road deaths? Let me see........
And the number of cyclists is growing all the time.
90019
Established Member
Depends on the bus - most have two spaces (there are some with only one), one for a buggy plus the one for a wheelchair - which a buggy can use when not required by a wheelchair. Any more must be folded.
If the buggy doesn't fit in the space, it doesn't travel.
The majority of drivers enforce the rule.
Shame that so many of them seem to have no care for their own safety and little or no awareness of what's going on around them.
Also, why are there so many cyclists with no lights at all? You can get a decent set for £35 or so from a shop, and cheaper online. I'd like to see the Police taking a much firmer stance on lack of lights on bicycles (same goes for cars driving with no lights on when it's dark).
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and to think it wasn't that long ago that most buses didn't have steps and pushchairs would dutifully be folded up in readiness for the buses arrival, it's a bit like doors on a HST where once 90% of people would close the door behind them now they have go lazy and moan when it doesn't depart on time.
In my experience they can be just as bad as each other in thinking that the road/ pavement is solely for their own use.
SS4
Established Member
I did say they had a reputation with no comment on whether it was deserved or not. I'm sure car drivers have a bad reputation amongst cyclists and both have a bad reputation amongst pedestrians but it's an irrelevance in this topic.
Cyclists are growing in number but are still small in comparison to buggies and luggage.
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