Buffet cars 1970s and 80s

[Cowley]

When I was little I remember being told by my parents that the buffet car was being removed or added to the train while we were on a journey up to Nottingham for instance. This often seemed to happen at Birmingham New Street and I think I remember seeing an 08 at times performing the manoeuvre.
Was this a common occurrence does anyone know?
If it was what was the reason?
Were there not enough buffet cars to go round? Because by the mid 1980s this never seemed to happen and pretty much any long distance train I travelled on seemed to have some kind of catering facility on it.
Any information gratefully received.

 

[CatfordCat]

I'm assuming you mean south west - midlands / north services that are now 'cross country'?

Looking at the doorstep sized 1974/5 BR timetable, there are some trains shown - particularly on Summer Saturdays - as restaurant and / or buffet to / from Bristol or Birmingham or Derby.

Buffet cars only being available between certain points is something that was fairly common, presumably to fit in with catering staff shifts / bases.

Although from my (mainly southern region) perspective, physically removing a closed buffet car wasn't that easy, unless a whole unit was detached (e.g. the 4 REP unit with the buffet car only ran between Waterloo and Bournemouth where the electrification then ended, and one or both 4TC units were attached to a 33/1 diesel loco to continue to Weymouth.)

There may not have been quite enough buffet cars to go round on summer Saturdays

The other consideration may have been what locations it was convenient to service / re-stock catering vehicles (for example they would have needed a supply of drinking water rather than the water supply used to fill water tanks for carriage toilets - perhaps carriages from some summer Saturday services ended up at locations where this wasn't normally done?

 

[Cowley]

Yes, just to clarify I was meaning cross country services. We would have been on a train from Cornwall or Devon to the north but we always got off at Derby where we would have changed for a local train to Nottingham.
We always seemed to be in mk1s too, I remember TSOs and compartments.
There was also the announcement "The buffet car is now open" which happened during the journeys and it seemed like miles away from where we were actually sitting.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I wonder whether it was simply a case of the buffet car being closed so that the staff could cash up as opposed to being physically removed from the train. I certainly can't recall any shunting of carriages taking place at Birmingham New Street as from memory the station pilot class 08 was simply there to marshal parcels stock in the bay platform.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Certain Holyhead trains used to have a pair (no less) - a Buffet and a Resturaunt car attached at Crewe in the soutbound direction , the diesel (often a 40) was cut off and an 86 with the cars attached onto the main train. Circa 1977 this was observed.

 

[yorksrob]

On the South coast, the BIG unit with the buffet car was often left behind at Eastbourne, whilst a crowded 4 carriage unit continued to Hastings.

 

[ianhr]

On the South coast, the BIG unit with the buffet car was often left behind at Eastbourne, whilst a crowded 4 carriage unit continued to Hastings.

There was a similar arrangement on the Victoria-Bognor/Portsmouth diagrams with the train divided at Barnham, a 4-car unit without catering continuing to Portsmouth via Chichester and the 4-BIG or 4-CEP terminating at Bognor. The 'main line' through Chichester is now much busier than the Bognor branch but in those days Bognor was still a popular seaside destination, most Portsmouth traffic being via the Direct line.

I think Victoria-Hove-Worthing-Littlehampton trains may have left the buffet car unit at Worthing too, but open to correction on this.

Waterloo-Bournemouth-Weymouth trains of course left the 4-REP unit at Bournemouth Central while the 3/4TCs were hauled to Weymouth by a class 33 until the electrification was extended from Branksome to Weymouth in the 1980s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

On the Western Region during the 1970s do I recall correctly that most Paddington to Penzance services would detach the catering vehicles etc. at Plymouth, then going forward into Cornwall with just 6 or seven coaches?

 

[Cowley]

On the Western Region during the 1970s do I recall correctly that most Paddington to Penzance services would detach the catering vehicles etc. at Plymouth, then going forward into Cornwall with just 6 or seven coaches?

I really do hope so as I'm starting to worry I dreamt it all up.
Maybe it was at Plymouth I remember it happening then. I'll ask my Dad later too.

 

[mwaugh]

I really do hope so as I'm starting to worry I dreamt it all up.

Maybe it was at Plymouth I remember it happening then. I'll ask my Dad later too.

It was Plymouth - in my youth we would watch them shunt the buffet onto the train before taking the train to London. When we arrived home my Mum would sometimes humor us and we'd watch the buffet being pulled off. And yes, often we'd be well into the trip before the buffet car was actually open.

When I was very young I remember traveling out of Plymouth and having an excellent breakfast in the restaurant car with my Dad. I don't recall that later in life, so either the restaurant car wasn't available or we got cheaper.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cowley]

It was Plymouth - in my youth we would watch them shunt the buffet onto the train before taking the train to London. When we arrived home my Mum would sometimes humor us and we'd watch the buffet being pulled off. And yes, often we'd be well into the trip before the buffet car was actually open.

When I was very young I remember traveling out of Plymouth and having an excellent breakfast in the restaurant car with my Dad. I don't recall that later in life, so either the restaurant car wasn't available or we got cheaper.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Welcome to the forum mwaugh. I just phoned my father and he confirmed what you've said. It must have been at Plymouth that I remember this happening. He said the train waited for quite a while there and there was some shunting about as extra carriages and the buffet car were added. I was only about six years old at the time though which is probably why I'm a bit hazy.
As an aside his username would be Waugh also and I just accused him of (not very) secretly joining the forum and commenting on my posts

 

[coppercapped]

I really do hope so as I'm starting to worry I dreamt it all up.
Maybe it was at Plymouth I remember it happening then. I'll ask my Dad later too.

From all reports this was the standard procedure in the days of the GWR as well. The section with the restaurant or buffet cars was detached at Plymouth and the front five or six coaches went forward to Penzance. Another route where this occurred on the Western was the Worcester and Hereford trains. In the last days of steam the service was two hourly with 7 coach trains; the rear four with the restaurant/buffet car were detached at Worcester and the front three went on to Hereford. In the meantime the three Hereford coaches from the previous train made their way back to Worcester where they were attached to the four coaches restaurant section and then returned to Paddington.

 

[edwin_m]

I think it wasn't just the buffet car removed at Plymouth, but several other coaches too. Presumably to match the demand further west and perhaps also allow a smaller loco - perhaps a legacy of the Kings not being allowed over the Tamar?

Wasn't there also at one time a buffet car leaving Inverness on the Far North line that was removed somewhere midway along the route and shunted onto the southbound train? I've also seen pictures of buffets being shunted off Cross Country trains at Sheffield in, I think, the 70s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think it wasn't just the buffet car removed at Plymouth, but several other coaches too. Presumably to match the demand further west and perhaps also allow a smaller loco - perhaps a legacy of the Kings not being allowed over the Tamar?

I think it depends on which period, but from my experiences from approximately 1972-75 it was usually a Western class 52 on a short mk2 rake giving way later in that period to EE class 50s, certainly on services to/from Paddington.

 

[30907]

... I've also seen pictures of buffets being shunted off Cross Country trains at Sheffield in, I think, the 70s.

I've witnessed that myself. RMB plus TSO from memory, off a Northbound in the afternoon, into one of the North end bays, then onto the rear of a southbound a couple of hours later.
The trains involved were part of a 3-day diagram for 5 Mk1s (short cross country trains aren't just a modern invention....), and this move allowed the two longest legs (Plymouth-York or Newcastle) to be covered by one catering car.

 

[SouthDevonian]

Table 64 (NE + NW <–> SW + Sth Wales) for M-S in the May ’73 – May ’74 timetable shows only one Buffet Car removal – that was from 15.29 York (in high summer it started as 14.13 Scarboro’) to Bristol. It was then used on next day’s 07.30 Birmingham to York / Scarboro’. The vast majority of trains this year carried a catering coach for the whole distance. Exceptions included: trains to/from Cornwall where they came off/on at Plymouth; 08.20 Plymouth – Leeds where the buffet came off at Sheffield and returned to Plymouth on the 14.38 from Leeds; 15.12 Plymouth – Leeds where the buffet was removed at Derby.

Nine years later, the cross country table (which now incorporated Poole, Portsmouth & Brighton) had become table 51. M-F buffet car became available at Birmingham on the: 06.00 Derby to Poole, 09.25 Manchester to Poole, 11.20 Liverpool to Reading, 13.20 Liverpool to Reading, 14.52 Leeds to Swansea; became unavailable at Birmingham on the: 12.42 Poole to Manchester, 19.11 Banbury to Manchester, 17.05 Poole to Derby. I use the wording 'became available/unavailable' as it is possible that the catering cars remained with the train and only the crew changed.

None of summer Saturdays extras had any refreshment cars – they didn’t keep any them sitting around unemployed for 6 days a week. Having said that, I remember a Merrymaker type day excursion in summer 1976 from the West Midlands to Eastbourne had a Kitchen Car which was used as a buffet.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

For a short and glorious time - Aberystwyth had a 37+ 5 standard vehicles to Wolverhampton where the buffet+ 2 first class coaches were attached , with an electric forward.to London. Mid 1980's perhaps. Superb journey and very comfortable.

 

[JohnW1]

I've witnessed that myself. RMB plus TSO from memory, off a Northbound in the afternoon, into one of the North end bays, then onto the rear of a southbound a couple of hours later.
The trains involved were part of a 3-day diagram for 5 Mk1s (short cross country trains aren't just a modern invention....), and this move allowed the two longest legs (Plymouth-York or Newcastle) to be covered by one catering car.

RMB W1801 + TSO in one of the centre roads at Sheffield having come off the northbound working and awaiting the southbound service, April 1977.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5648777996/

 

[Cowley]

I very much appreciate all the replies on this folks, it's been really interesting.

 

[30907]

08.20 Plymouth – Leeds where the buffet came off at Sheffield and returned to Plymouth on the 14.38 from Leeds; 15.12 Plymouth – Leeds where the buffet was removed at Derby.

I remember a Merrymaker type day excursion in summer 1976 from the West Midlands to Eastbourne had a Kitchen Car which was used as a buffet.

Thanks, that's the working I meant and JohnW1 has evidenced - so a buffet for almost the whole journey. Despite a good look at the 74/75 timetable I can't recall the other workings involved with those sets.

The 1512 Plymouth was formed off the 0704 Derby - so it kept the buffet working simple as well as less unprofitable.

Full Kitchen Cars were rare beasts, normally only appearing on upmarket race trains IIRC.

 

[D1009]

For a short and glorious time - Aberystwyth had a 37+ 5 standard vehicles to Wolverhampton where the buffet+ 2 first class coaches were attached , with an electric forward.to London. Mid 1980's perhaps. Superb journey and very comfortable.

I thought the attachment took place at Shrewsbury, I think it was more than 2 first class, and probably a full restaurant service, or am I thinking of later when the DVTs came in?

 

[Dvorak]

The Far North catering services used to be available from Inverness to Rogart, I think. I thought it was just a trolley though. I only made one return trip though, so might be wrong.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I thought the attachment took place at Shrewsbury, I think it was more than 2 first class, and probably a full restaurant service, or am I thinking of later when the DVTs came in?

No - def Wolverhampton - and being a Sunday , buffet service only south of that station.

 

[30907]

The Far North catering services used to be available from Inverness to Rogart, I think. I thought it was just a trolley though. I only made one return trip though, so might be wrong.

Depends how long ago. In 1962 the RC workings were Kinbrace and Achnasheen, with a buffet right through on the mid morning Far North and return. My memory from the 70s is RMBs all the way, but then came the Microbuffets which could presumably lose their trolley en route.

 

[delt1c]

Used the far North service in the 70,s and was buffet throughout

 

[Millisle]

The Far North catering services used to be available from Inverness to Rogart, I think. I thought it was just a trolley though. I only made one return trip though, so might be wrong.

My recollection is that the steward changed trains, but none of the equipment.

 

[falcon]

In 1978 the 13.08 from Kings Cross to Leeds and Hull used to split at Doncaster and the Buffet portion went to Leeds and the other coaches to Hull.

In 1979 the 07.36 from Leeds to Penzance (the Cornishman) used to have the Buffet car and Resturant car removed at Plymouth and stabled at Laira. The Buffet and resurant car then returned the next day on the 12.45 from Plymouth (ex 10:30 off Penzance) to Leeds.

In the timetables it can say the buffet service is only between two particular points but that does not mean the Buffet is physicaly removed from the train it ment the crew had alighted or had to close to cash up.

 

[Taunton]

Unlikely to have been Mk 1 stock and the buffet attached and announced as "now open", as Mk 1 stock did not have PA equipment.

The Western, and the GWR before them, detached refreshment vehicles, plus several normal ones as well, as a matter of course before the end of longer journeys. Plymouth for Penzance trains, Swansea (because many services continued through to west Wales), Worcester/Hereford, and Wolverhampton for services through to Birkenhead or the Cambrian Coast. This actually fitted in quite sensibly with passenger demand, and indeed refreshments demand. It was generally where locos were changed.

The WR summary timetable for Reading to Paddington showed refreshment facilities on all those through Up services which had such cars, however this was quite misleading as invariably they had closed to cash up before the service even arrived at Reading.