Buffer Stop Collision near Brighton (Lovers Walk Depot)

[43096]

But how does the average passenger - someone who isn't going to be reading or posting on this forum - going to have any idea of the different times it may take to deal with, and clear any of: a problem at the depot; a broken down train; a points failure; a fire next to the track; a trespass incident; a derailment; damage to the overhead wires; a problem with the signalling equipment? I wouldn't be surprised if the average punter doesn't expect a low speed derailment in the depot to be a relatively quick and easy problem to rectify and then expect some of the other issues to take longer to rectify than they actually do.

Regulars have a pretty good idea having experienced various incidents in the past. So some idea of what the issue is at least gives them a starting point on “do I sit it out”, “do I do Plan B” or whatever.

 

[GordonT]

That sounds the most accurate without going into extreme detail, couldnt get clearer within reason.

Possibly "minor derailment of an empty train at a depot" would aid further the more squeamish reader although open to the criticism that at least one staff member may have been on board ergo the train was not empty if so.

 

[bramling]

Regulars have a pretty good idea having experienced various incidents in the past. So some idea of what the issue is at least gives them a starting point on “do I sit it out”, “do I do Plan B” or whatever.

Yes most people tend to react a lot better when given detailed and honest information. I tend to think it’s better to provide that, rather than treat everyone like dummies for the sake of setting off a few hystericals.

 

[RGM654]

However much or little detail is released about the details of an incident, different people will have different degrees of ability to deduce how that will affect their journeys. If possible someone on the TOC should make an informed decision as to what services can run when and what alternative routes exist, and then make that information available as widely and quickly as possible. If their initial decision turns out to be wrong, they should update the info ASAP.

 

[JonathanH]

Did anyone get any gen on the loco from Tonbridge that went to assist?
A 1Z99 came from that area and now an 0Z66 from lovers walk is just leaving...

66792 reported on Railcam.

 

[infobleep]

It seems when there is a railway problem, some people want to know EVERYTHING as soon as it happened.

On the roads, people seem to accept "The A3 North is closed at Guildford following an accident", and don't demand "The A3 is closed at the hospital junction at Guildford to the A25 junction because a black Peugeot 3008, AB24CDE, hit the OSR quarter of red Nissan Juke, XX70XXX, because the Peugeot driver was sending a text while driving and the Juke driver did not see the problem occuring in their mirror."
Edit to add: "Surrey Police sent these two cars from Guildford, SECAmb sent this DMA based at Chertsey and this SRV based at Guildford, and Westbourne Motors sent this specific recovery vehicle from their depot at... wherever they are based"


The last set of rail disruption I was caught up in was quite large. I got told be staff initially that nothing was going out of the station. Nothing was going to move for a while.
I asked if another specific route would be valid, got told no as that would also be affected as the issue was at XYZ station.
Did I need to know more than that? No.
Once I found out more about what the cause was, did it fundamentally change my travel plan? Also no.


I am not advocating for having no communication, but there is a sensible level.
As others have said, a bogie going on a small adventure is a derailment, but if you ask someone to imagine a derailment, they will say Hatfield, Clapham, Salisbury, Selby, etc and have visions of death, destruction, and days long issues. "A problem in the depot" describes the situation in a balanced way.

On a road example... Picture this: "An incident on the M3 sliproad", and then think about this: "A collision between a coach and a lorry on the M3 motorway".
Now I will say that this hypothetical is a coach doing a 2mph lovetap to the back of an HGV at the lights on a sliproad. Both statements describe the incident, but they are giving different depictions.


The trick is to give as much information as is needed to convey the facts and prevent over speculation, without giving unnecessary or counterproductive information.

Do you think Network Rail Kent & Sussex gave out too much information and went to far with what they posted, formerly known as tweeted.

 

[Lockwood]

No. It looks like a sensible level of information disclosure.

Initially: There is a problem, things are going to be affected.

Later: ok, we've looked into it and this is what's going on and what we want to do.


That seems more reasonable than starting with There is a problem and this is what we think is going on but we don't fully know yet.

 

[infobleep]

No. It looks like a sensible level of information disclosure.

Initially: There is a problem, things are going to be affected.

Later: ok, we've looked into it and this is what's going on and what we want to do.


That seems more reasonable than starting with There is a problem and this is what we think is going on but we don't fully know yet.

I think then you may be in agreement with some here, as all people want from my understanding is the level of info given out bt Network Raik Kent & Sussex, so from that they can make informed decisions.

If someone wants to know on here what unit it is then fine but that's just on here.

 

[43066]

No. It looks like a sensible level of information disclosure.

Initially: There is a problem, things are going to be affected.

Later: ok, we've looked into it and this is what's going on and what we want to do.


That seems more reasonable than starting with There is a problem and this is what we think is going on but we don't fully know yet.

The “low speed derailment in a depot” wording discussed above would have been quite sufficient. It may be that it isn’t available to GTR for whatever reason, as alluded to in post #33. There’s really no need for any more detail than that.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

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Is it a class 377 that's involved in this?

377 402 is the unit in question.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

But how does the average passenger - someone who isn't going to be reading or posting on this forum - going to have any idea of the different times it may take to deal with, and clear any of: a problem at the depot; a broken down train; a points failure; a fire next to the track; a trespass incident; a derailment; damage to the overhead wires; a problem with the signalling equipment? I wouldn't be surprised if the average punter doesn't expect a low speed derailment in the depot to be a relatively quick and easy problem to rectify and then expect some of the other issues to take longer to rectify than they actually do.

I expect they’d do it based on prior experience - sadly with the state the railways are in, they’ll get plenty of examples to base their expectations off!

 

[mpthomson]

And assess what alternative decisions to make to your travel plans. A derailment is likely to take longer to resolve than a points failure or a power cut etc. If you know what the problem is, you can make an educated guess as to how long it will be before normal service is resumed.

The vast majority of the travelling public wouldn't know how long the different problems take to solve and are wholly unable (perfectly reasonably) to make an educated guess. Many on this site forget that passengers have little interest in what causes a delay other than how long the delay is likely to be.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

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Is it a class 377 thats involved in this?

That's what it says on the cab :

 

[class444 fan]

That's what it says on the cab :

thanks

 

[MotCO]

The vast majority of the travelling public wouldn't know how long the different problems take to solve and are wholly unable (perfectly reasonably) to make an educated guess. Many on this site forget that passengers have little interest in what causes a delay other than how long the delay is likely to be.

But those that have some inkling of the workings of the railway would benefit from this info.

 

[Surreytraveller]

However much or little detail is released about the details of an incident, different people will have different degrees of ability to deduce how that will affect their journeys. If possible someone on the TOC should make an informed decision as to what services can run when and what alternative routes exist, and then make that information available as widely and quickly as possible. If their initial decision turns out to be wrong, they should update the info ASAP.

The only time its that simple, is if a branch line is cut off, and there are no crew changes and no depots on that branch line.
Otherwise, no decision can be made as to what can run, as it is far too complicated. Plus, the situation can constantly change, as happened yesterday when it was decided to run trains to Brighton and one got stuck outside the station when the rerouted traction current couldn't handle it

 

[Desiro123]

Looks like the train got off lightly for damage there. Last depot buffer collision I saw demolished the buffer stops, caved in the nose end gangway and damaged the coupler!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Looks like the train got off lightly for damage there. Last depot buffer collision I saw demolished the buffer stops, caved in the nose end gangway and damaged the coupler!

That's what's supposed to happen. Coupler gets damaged to absorb the impact and protect the rest of the train. Couplers can be easily replaced

 

[MarkyT]

That's what's supposed to happen. Coupler gets damaged to absorb the impact and protect the rest of the train. Couplers can be easily replaced

I think couplers are supposed to shear off under extreme compression force and then any buffing gear anti-climb measures engage to dissipate the forces into the crumple zones and shove the buffer stop against its carefully adjusted friction mountings. The buffer stop here looks like it slid right off the end of the rails it was secured to before toppling over. I remember looking at the cables in the vicinity of this incident after a previous derailment on another siding and thinking they look a bit vulnerable. It's also worth noting the particular buffer stop is fairly close to running lines, so a more energetic derailment might end up foul.

 

[AM9]

Obviously there's no official line yet, but telling the public a train has derailed will cause some to assume its some sort of mass casualty event and then the inevitable hysteria the media loves.

if it were the case that someone forgot a set of manual points and a train dropped one bogey off the rails but blocked the whole depot by conincidence.. that's very much a "problem at the depot"

People don't always need to know why, but they should be told how to deal with the fallout. Like if the Police close a road you need, you are not entitled to be told what has happened just because it affects your journey.

Precisely. posts from railway related social media are often flooded with questions like this from rail enthusiasts who want to know the ins and outs of the event because they want to start assessing who caused it, who will fix it and be the first among lay travellers to broadcast their knowledge and opinion.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I presume buffers in a depot are designed to protect a running line rather than save lives, as in theory there should be no lives on the train (apart from the driver).
Unless they're cheap buffers designed to look the part, which seems to be GTR's way

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Unless they're cheap buffers designed to look the part, which seems to be GTR's way

To be fair, they did their job at stopping the train quite quickly. Not their fault Network Rail decided to put a bunch of power cables in the buffer-zone, so to speak.

 

[Surreytraveller]

To be fair, they did their job at stopping the train quite quickly. Not their fault Network Rail decided to put a bunch of power cables in the buffer-zone, so to speak.

Perhaps the cables were always there, and it was GTR's choice to put the buffers on top.
Depot infrastructure is the responsibility of the TOCs, even if the feed is from Network Rail

 

[mpthomson]

But those that have some inkling of the workings of the railway would benefit from this info.

That's not a reason to widely publicise it unfortunately.