Budget Train Operators: Could they work in The UK?

[NorthernSpirit]

I can just imagine the UK version of budget trains.

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Either that or a horsebox on train wheels. Orange hi-vis and tail and marker lights not included.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But would you really want to be standing on a train, a toilet-less 376, for a journey of that length?

No, but I expect some people would be happy with that for a lower cost journey.

 

[DanTrain]

No, but I expect some people would be happy with that for a lower cost journey.

Why not just get a coach though?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was indeed. Slow. Pretty ancient Mk I stock, no catering, Class 40 hauled. The two trains crossed at Doncaster where the crews swopped over.

Terminated (I think) at Finsbury Park - not great in those days. A bit half - hearted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not just get a coach though?

Much slower.

 

[6Gman]

Terminated (I think) at Finsbury Park - not great in those days. A bit half - hearted.

I'd forgotten that detail.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'd forgotten that detail.

Around the age of 14 , I used to deliver milk in the summer holidays (relief milkman for an uncle's Welsh dairy !) , and recall seeing that train and the posters for it. An idea - but not a great one.

The concept of selling "cheap" tickets on under loading trains from the Cross was a much better concept - trust me- Finsbury Park was not great in those days. Not dangerous - just run down with few facilties.

 

[yorksrob]

Terminated (I think) at Finsbury Park - not great in those days. A bit half - hearted.

I can imagine that such a concept might be quite popular today amongst rail enthusiasts.

 

[DanTrain]

Much slower.

Yes, but I imagine the market of people who’d prefer to stand for several hours for the same price as sitting in reasonable comfort for a couple more hours is quite limited. Could be wrong though...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but I imagine the market of people who’d prefer to stand for several hours for the same price as sitting in reasonable comfort for a couple more hours is quite limited. Could be wrong though...

The number of people who cram themselves into LNR Trent Valley 4-car services (and alight at places other than those only served by those trains and with no convenient connection from Birmingham) would appear to disagree, much as it's not something I would go for.

 

[SaveECRewards]

That rings a bell. Perhaps 'no frills' is the wrong phrase but I was trying to get at that it'll probably have less amenities than say you'd find on VTWC or VTEC. Probably not much beyond seat, power socket, toilets, wifi and some manner of catering. Probably no 'extras' like BEAM and certainly no First Class.

There may be something like BEAM, these systems seem to be popping up on many rail operators and airlines so they must be cost effective to provide.

To cover costs they could either make it a chargeable extra or insert ads into the programming.

There was indeed. Slow. Pretty ancient Mk I stock, no catering, Class 40 hauled. The two trains crossed at Doncaster where the crews swopped over.

As I can't remember it I assume it was in BR days. Was it run as a cheap service by BR itself or was a private operator actually allowed to operate it?

 

[swt_passenger]

As I can't remember it I assume it was in BR days. Was it run as a cheap service by BR itself or was a private operator actually allowed to operate it?

I used the Highwayman from Newcastle once for a family holiday with relatives in London in the late 60s. Remember how weird it was changing onto tube at something like 0630... pretty sure it was a normal BR operation, but with dedicated fares.

 

[PR1Berske]

The layout of many British stations would struggle to adapt to advance only budget franchises. I know some stations work well for open access operation, Bradford for one example, but that is an exception.

As said earlier in this thread, the change from walk-up to advance only would be a significant shift for the railways.

Capacity isn't a problem, in my opinion. We've reached peak passenger numbers now, and there's nowhere near the strain on the network as people like to believe. An advantage of no frills services could be running trains into different end points than usual, much like easyJet doesn't fly into the main airport but a near neighbour.

 

[swaldman]

An advantage of no frills services could be running trains into different end points than usual, much like easyJet doesn't fly into the main airport but a near neighbour.

TBH, if the train didn't go into the city centre, it would have given up one of its main selling points over air... (given that flying is usually cheaper at present for 4+ hour rail journeys)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Terminated (I think) at Finsbury Park - not great in those days. A bit half - hearted.

Ew, good job it doesn’t run now, else the first thing those poor passengers would see of London would be the icky Emirates Stadium!

 

[al78]

The layout of many British stations would struggle to adapt to advance only budget franchises. I know some stations work well for open access operation, Bradford for one example, but that is an exception.

As said earlier in this thread, the change from walk-up to advance only would be a significant shift for the railways.

Capacity isn't a problem, in my opinion. We've reached peak passenger numbers now, and there's nowhere near the strain on the network as people like to believe. An advantage of no frills services could be running trains into different end points than usual, much like easyJet doesn't fly into the main airport but a near neighbour.

Aren't the commuter lines into London at peak capacity?

 

[PR1Berske]

Aren't the commuter lines into London at peak capacity?

No. These claims are made by pro-HS2 people but it's inaccurate.

 

[AlterEgo]

I can imagine that such a concept might be quite popular today amongst rail enthusiasts.

Would still be half baked when you could send it down the Moorgate branch.

 

[yorksrob]

Would still be half baked when you could send it down the Moorgate branch.

Well, I suppose if the general public are prepared to sit on a coach that takes hours to get anywhere for a journey that's cheap, then they would presumably do the same on a train

 

[AlterEgo]

The layout of many British stations would struggle to adapt to advance only budget franchises.

Why would they be Advance-only?

I know some stations work well for open access operation, Bradford for one example, but that is an exception.

Grand Central is not Advance-only, in fact, they encourage you to buy on board. What is it about the layout you mean?

much like easyJet doesn't fly into the main airport but a near neighbour.

Easyjet generally flies into the main airport. You might be thinking of Ryanair?

 

[goblinuser]

The concept of selling "cheap" tickets on under loading trains from the Cross was a much better concept - trust me- Finsbury Park was not great in those days. Not dangerous - just run down with few facilties.

It still is.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It still is.

Finsbury Park LUL had the crime rating of "1" not that long ago - i.e the worst on the system. (and the only one in that class) , still a very tough job IMHO - though talking to people who worked there a few years ago - they just got on it , and relished the communal attitude of their fellow workers. Not much fun when it goes seriously wrong - slightly off topic I know ...

 

[goblinuser]

Finsbury Park LUL had the crime rating of "1" not that long ago - i.e the worst on the system. (and the only one in that class) , still a very tough job IMHO - though talking to people who worked there a few years ago - they just got on it , and relished the communal attitude of their fellow workers. Not much fun when it goes seriously wrong - slightly off topic I know ...

The Finsbury Park station is in a dire state at present.
The old Wells Terrace entrance tunnel has been demolished to build flats on, so now everyone has to walk under the rail bridges past rows of homeless people living in filthy conditions, excrement and urine all over the place, and the favourite spot for every local drug dealer, the entrance to Finsbury Park park to get to the NR and LUL station. But it's all ok because it's being redeveloped, look there is a new Pret right next to all this squalor!
When you get into the underground station there are no staff, buckets and sand bags everywhere to absorb the various leaks. If you choose national rail, you will walk through a dilapidated old entrance with paladin bins in it and oyster card readers to trick you into touching in before you reach the gateline.

 

[Bald Rick]

No. These claims are made by pro-HS2 people but it's inaccurate.

You're going to need to provide evidence for that statement. Which London termini have spare paths in the morning peak (arriving between 0800-0900), and where from?

(And let's not make this an HS2 argument).

 

[Bald Rick]

Hasn't the budget train operator already been done, between somewhere near Loughboro' to not quite Leicester, courtesy of Messrs Hammond, May and a forum member?

 

[Bald Rick]

Certainly not. Today apparently Easy jet are quoting over £1000 p.p. for a return from the Uk to Geneva on certain flights!

I am in the travel business and regularly book groups on airlines out the Uk and I regard Easy Jet as the MOST expensive of all the airlines. BA , 5 times out of 6 will be cheaper.

Sorry, a bit off topic but wanted to dispel the myths of some so called "low cost" airlines.

(Still OT, sorry) The thing is, Easyjet will have got those prices. They were quoting £450 one way LTN-GVA for last Saturday months ago. And I bet those planes left full. The market is happy to pay it. Besides, I think many people are of the opinion that EZY are better than BA now anyway. I certainly think so, and will happily pay more to fly EZY than BA on common routes. Indeed I have done.

Meanwhile I got LTN-GVA return for well under £100 a few weeks ago.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Obviously but BA was still £200 cheaper than Easy jet on the same days. My point was that Easy Jet are NOT a low cost carrier anymore.
And to answer the point about not being a fair comparison I was comparing ONLY London flights with both EJ and BA. In my mind that is a fair comparison. Yes, if you live in the north west you are more likely to use Easy from say liverpool than BA from Heathrow

We can all pick out exceptions - EasyJet have been cheaper to Marco Polo than Ryanair have been to Treviso recently.

 

[Gagravarr]

Of course, the one route where I could see such a thing really taking off would be the channel tunnel ! Cheap tickets to continental destinations - not much in the way of competition at present (The Ozy train appeared to have a rather pleasing green livery !)

Given how much Getlink currently charge for Channel Tunnel access, I'm not sure it's possible. Based on the charges quoted on page 40 of their 2018 Network Statement - https://www.getlinkgroup.com/upload...usiness/2018-Eurotunnel-Network-Statement.pdf - they want about €19 per passenger each way, plus about €4000-€5000 per train each way on top of that, plus €7500 admin fee per train per timetable season! (Prices in that seem to be quoted as 2015 prices, so you need to add 3 years inflation to them)

Even if you could get a cheap train that complied with the fire safety rules, and cheaper rail access rates at each end by avoiding the high speed lines, and find cheaper stations at which you'll still need to pay for all the security and immigration stuff, I can't see how you can really undercut Eurostar given how much Getlink are trousering off each train

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "cheapo TGVs" are being done using old stock previously used on the regular service. You could I suppose get hold of some 373s, but I expect Eurostar are ensuring these get scrapped to prevent exactly this from happening.

 

[goblinuser]

Given how much Getlink currently charge for Channel Tunnel access, I'm not sure it's possible. Based on the charges quoted on page 40 of their 2018 Network Statement - https://www.getlinkgroup.com/upload...usiness/2018-Eurotunnel-Network-Statement.pdf - they want about €19 per passenger each way, plus about €4000-€5000 per train each way on top of that, plus €7500 admin fee per train per timetable season! (Prices in that seem to be quoted as 2015 prices, so you need to add 3 years inflation to them)

Even if you could get a cheap train that complied with the fire safety rules, and cheaper rail access rates at each end by avoiding the high speed lines, and find cheaper stations at which you'll still need to pay for all the security and immigration stuff, I can't see how you can really undercut Eurostar given how much Getlink are trousering off each train

What is Getlink?