Bucks Free Press - Fare Evasion 6K

[jon0844]

And a flat screen TV. Don't forget that (or the fact TVs are cheap as chips today).

 

[Momuss97]

I think you guys are more invested in this than the people actually working on the trains.

Not sure if a regional thing but never once seen a penalty fare be issued. Inspector just lets anyone buy a ticket if they don’t have one. And I rarely ever even see them walk down the train, even when the train is packed. Much better way of doing things. Relaxed approach will only happen more as jobs continue to get cut and there’s no one to inspect tickets.

 

[jon0844]

I would expect the DfT at some point will seek to improve revenue protection. They get the money from ticket sales, after all.

 

[Hadders]

I think you guys are more invested in this than the people actually working on the trains.

Not sure if a regional thing but never once seen a penalty fare be issued. Inspector just lets anyone buy a ticket if they don’t have one. And I rarely ever even see them walk down the train, even when the train is packed. Much better way of doing things. Relaxed approach will only happen more as jobs continue to get cut and there’s no one to inspect tickets.

I've seen an increase in ticket checks on my local (Thameslink operated) line int he last few months. That said it's not realistic to inspect every ticket on every journey.

There are many elements to an effective revenue protection policy. Some visible, some not so visible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would expect the DfT at some point will seek to improve revenue protection. They get the money from ticket sales, after all.

However they also pay the cost of staffing gatelines and the likes. This is where it falls down - because Euston is gated and returns aren't much more expensive than singles, anyone coming back from Euston to Bletchley of an evening has almost certainly paid. You thus end up having to pay for a couple of gateline staff to catch people just using the "free train"* from MKC to Bletchley after that gateline destaffs about 9pm or so, and so you're not going to make enough money to pay for the staff.

* I've never done it without paying, but it's widely known as that locally, a bit like "Uncle Ken's free buses" aimed at the London bendies.

 

[Hadders]

However they also pay the cost of staffing gatelines and the likes. This is where it falls down - because Euston is gated and returns aren't much more expensive than singles, anyone coming back from Euston to Bletchley of an evening has almost certainly paid. You thus end up having to pay for a couple of gateline staff to catch people just using the "free train"* from MKC to Bletchley after that gateline destaffs about 9pm or so, and so you're not going to make enough money to pay for the staff.

* I've never done it without paying, but it's widely known as that locally, a bit like "Uncle Ken's free buses" aimed at the London bendies.

The current (old British Rail) fares structure where an Off Peak Day Return costs only 10p more than a single is an excellent revenue protection measure.

There are six points at where a ticket can be checked:
- At the starting station of the outward journey
- Onboard the outward train
- At the destination station of the outward journey
- At the starting station of the return journey
- Onboard the return train
- At the destination station of the return journey

As long as one of these ticket checks takes place then the railway gets its revenue.

This will of course not work with single leg pricing although the rise of barcoded tickets, increased online purchasing and the ability to data mine for discrepancies in the back office opens up a whole world of revenue protection possibilities.

 

[Krokodil]

However they also pay the cost of staffing gatelines and the likes. This is where it falls down

At one station I'm aware of, extending the gated hours as a trial resulted in a four-figure sum taken at the TVM per evening. It won't work everywhere, but there are some places where the railway is literally throwing money away - Liverpool Lime Street high numbered platforms for one.

The current (old British Rail) fares structure where an Off Peak Day Return costs only 10p more than a single is an excellent revenue protection measure.

As you say it's a shame that the government now seeks to reverse that. I love it when I collar a would-be opportunist skulking low in a seat. They ask for (and are sold) a single. Then they get back on my train in the other direction. Another single sold!

 

[Bletchleyite]

At one station I'm aware of, extending the gated hours as a trial resulted in a four-figure sum taken at the TVM per evening. It won't work everywhere, but there are some places where the railway is literally throwing money away - Liverpool Lime Street high numbered platforms for one.

Astonishes me that when that was rebuilt it was without a gateline. It always used to have a staffed one, hence the old glass partition (now removed).

 

[AlterEgo]

Lots of anger in the comments.

It could be useful to also consider the root issue - train fares are extortionate.

Spending thousands on commuting, during a cost of living crisis, whilst the service in return is dreadful, will naturally lead people to fare dodging.

The root issue is that the people who do it are dishonest and have a character deficiency they need to address.

 

[Mzzzs]

I find from my trips it's not the fact people can't afford the fares it is that they know they won't get caught doing it. I see this on trains with guards as well.

 

[Starmill]

Certainly he should have been convicted of fraud, not a simple RoRA offence as seems to have been used. I could certainly see the case for a year or two in prison for such a long term calculated piece of dishonesty.

For fraud worth about £2.5k, as it appears we're dealing with here, that's way overkill. The current guidelines do offer a judge a sentence of up to 8 years for the highest-harm cases, so if a person were convicted of conspiracy to defraud £1 million that could give a starting point of several years in prison. However that's just a starting point - note here the defendant received a reduction for pleading guilty.

 

[40875704]

The current (old British Rail) fares structure where an Off Peak Day Return costs only 10p more than a single is an excellent revenue protection measure.

There are six points at where a ticket can be checked:
- At the starting station of the outward journey
- Onboard the outward train
- At the destination station of the outward journey
- At the starting station of the return journey
- Onboard the return train
- At the destination station of the return journey

As long as one of these ticket checks takes place then the railway gets its revenue.

This will of course not work with single leg pricing although the rise of barcoded tickets, increased online purchasing and the ability to data mine for discrepancies in the back office opens up a whole world of revenue protection possibilities.

Struggling with "The current (old British Rail) fares structure where an Off Peak Day Return costs only 10p more than a single is an excellent revenue protection measure." How so?

 

[jon0844]

If you buy a ticket to go out when gates are still manned, you may as well pay 5 or 10p more for the return.

If and when you can buy singles only, you might chance not getting one when going home late. Now the railway loses a lot more (when singles become half the price of a return).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you buy a ticket to go out when gates are still manned, you may as well pay 5 or 10p more for the return.

If and when you can buy singles only, you might chance not getting one when going home late. Now the railway loses a lot more (when singles become half the price of a return).

Typically the Anytime Day Returns in the SE are about the price of two Anytime Day Singles, though - I wonder if there's less fare dodging among people buying those because work may well be paying anyway?

From most South East stations far enough out not to trigger the £13 minimum anyone with a Network Railcard is already better off buying singles for a journey involving travel in the morning peak anyway, sometimes substantially so (from Bletchley it saves well over a fiver) but I wonder if many know about that?

 

[Starmill]

I think you guys are more invested in this than the people actually working on the trains.

Not sure if a regional thing but never once seen a penalty fare be issued. Inspector just lets anyone buy a ticket if they don’t have one. And I rarely ever even see them walk down the train, even when the train is packed. Much better way of doing things. Relaxed approach will only happen more as jobs continue to get cut and there’s no one to inspect tickets.

Revenue protection roles aren't being cut though. Quite the opposite...

 

[Hadders]

Struggling with "The current (old British Rail) fares structure where an Off Peak Day Return costs only 10p more than a single is an excellent revenue protection measure." How so?

Because somone who decides to 'chance it' and buy a ticket when challenged inevitably just asks for a single. When a single and return are basically the same price the railway recovers all of it's money from the chancer.

 

[BJames]

I think you guys are more invested in this than the people actually working on the trains.

Not sure if a regional thing but never once seen a penalty fare be issued. Inspector just lets anyone buy a ticket if they don’t have one. And I rarely ever even see them walk down the train, even when the train is packed. Much better way of doing things. Relaxed approach will only happen more as jobs continue to get cut and there’s no one to inspect tickets.

You have to realise though that this encourages a pay when challenged mindset. This means any time the conductor doesn't get round to you, you get a free journey. Great for the passenger - not so great for the railway which would lose a serious amount of money if it adopted this attitude.

For the record, I don't like the overzealous chasing of those who have made an innocent mistake or have been confused. But ultimately that's what a penalty fare, or discretion, is for.

I've seen penalty fares issued on a range of journeys, just as I've seen anytime fares, and excess fares been issued. Based on your location I haven't seen many inspectors in that area but it certainly doesn't mean they don't exist. To take a local(ish) example, the line between Redhill and Tonbridge will see you sold a ticket onboard, and I've seen this many times. But my local line up in London won't - just today I watched two London Overground inspectors pull off someone for further questioning at Cambridge Heath. I would be very surprised if they said 'just go downstairs and tap in'.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

ve seen penalty fares issued on a range of journeys, just as I've seen anytime fares, and excess fares been issued. Based on your location I haven't seen many inspectors in that area but it certainly doesn't mean they don't exist. To take a local(ish) example, the line between Redhill and Tonbridge will see you sold a ticket onboard, and I've seen this many times. But my local line up in London won't - just today I watched two London Overground inspectors pull off someone for further questioning at Cambridge Heath. I would be very surprised if they said 'just go downstairs and tap in'.

Although this isn’t quite the current question, I’d point out that the easy way to avoid getting involved in the various different ways of fare enforcement is to buy the right ticket before you travel.

 

[Deafdoggie]

A lot depends on area of course. My local stations are unstaffed and have no machines so if I get on and the guard doesn't come down, I get a free ride and it's not my fault. If they do come down I pay the normal fare, so it doesn't matter.
But nowadays, most people (including myself) pay on our phones, get an e-ticket and it's job done. The railway is now getting more money as the free journeys are a lot less.

 

[flythetube]

A lot depends on area of course. My local stations are unstaffed and have no machines so if I get on and the guard doesn't come down, I get a free ride and it's not my fault. If they do come down I pay the normal fare, so it doesn't matter.
But nowadays, most people (including myself) pay on our phones, get an e-ticket and it's job done. The railway is now getting more money as the free journeys are a lot less.

Why does the ‘guard need to come down’ otherwise it’s a free ride???

Is not the onus on the customer to seek out the guard, who will usually be visible on the platform at every station stop?

 

[skyhigh]

Is not the onus on the customer to seek out the guard

Not in law, no.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Why does the ‘guard need to come down’ otherwise it’s a free ride???

Is not the onus on the customer to seek out the guard, who will usually be visible on the platform at every station stop?

No. Not at all. You have no obligation to track down staff

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does the ‘guard need to come down’ otherwise it’s a free ride???

Is not the onus on the customer to seek out the guard, who will usually be visible on the platform at every station stop?

No. Indeed there won't be one on the trains under discussion here - Chiltern, other than the silver sets, is DOO south of Banbury, and on train inspections by RPIs are quite rare.

Guards tend to not like it if you go and find them, anyway, they prefer to come down the train when ready.

 

[Starmill]

No. Not at all. You have no obligation to track down staff

In general this isn't even practical either. If the customer finds it is practical then of course that's useful.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2023 ==

No. Indeed there won't be one on the trains under discussion here - Chiltern, other than the silver sets, is DOO south of Banbury, and on train inspections by RPIs are quite rare.

Guards tend to not like it if you go and find them, anyway, they prefer to come down the train when ready.

Indeed. Generally that customer needs to approach a member of staff at their destination and say they've come from X but there was no way to get a ticket, and ask for directions to buy one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In general this isn't even practical either. If the customer finds it is practical then of course that's useful.

The case where you do need to speak to staff before boarding is if you're seeking permission to travel on an otherwise invalid ticket, or to purchase a ticket on board where you've walked past an opportunity to purchase, as in most cases the guard can give permission to travel and thus negate the offence committed by so doing. If they say no, obviously you can't then board.

 

[LowLevel]

The case where you do need to speak to staff before boarding is if you're seeking permission to travel on an otherwise invalid ticket, or to purchase a ticket on board where you've walked past an opportunity to purchase, as in most cases the guard can give permission to travel and thus negate the offence committed by so doing. If they say no, obviously you can't then board.

I sometimes think the East German system would put the cat amongst the pigeons. If you can't pay at the station you can pay the guard, provided you're proactive about it - the onus is on the passenger to pay for the service they wish to use.

If they have to come and find you it is a 3 figure penalty

The amount of times I go through after a station like Nottingham to find someone has ignored the booking office, walked past the TVMs and is then actually holding the Trainline app with their railcard in it wanting to pay me for a railcard discounted ticket is ridiculous.

When pointing out that I shouldn't have to chase them for their fare, the expression is usually along the lines of if I had urinated in their chipped potatoes.

Then once in a blue moon revenue block the doors and won't let them on and they miss their train and bleat about that, too.

You'd think paying for a good or service was an actual hardship

 

[Krokodil]

Why does the ‘guard need to come down’ otherwise it’s a free ride???

Is not the onus on the customer to seek out the guard, who will usually be visible on the platform at every station stop?

That's only an obligation when you want to buy a PRIV.

 

[Haywain]

That's only an obligation when you want to buy a PRIV.

I don’t believe that's the case even for priv tickets.

 

[Krokodil]

I don’t believe that's the case even for priv tickets.

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/images/RST/RST_Where_Can_I_Go_NSG_v24.pdf

Only if the ticket office is closed, and there is no local ‘promise to pay’ in use, can you buy a Priv-rate ticket on board a train. You must actively seek out staff on-board the train, have your fare ready and offer to pay it at the first available opportunity. By offering to pay there can be no question that you are trying to travel without paying. If you don’t actively offer to pay, then you may be accused of fare avoidance, and risk committing a Travel Irregularity.