BTP struggles to justify ECML closure for nearly 5 hours

[amcluesent]

Passengers stuck after services were suspended on the East Coast Main Line when a man's body was found in Stoke Tunnel, near Grantham, Lincolnshire

Services were suspended on the East Coast Main Line at around 9pm yesterday after a man's body was found in Stoke Tunnel, near Grantham, Lincolnshire, a spokesman for train company East Coast said.

British Transport Police (BTP) declared the line open again at 1.49am.

Explaining the length of time it took to reopen the line, Inspector Chris Fellows of BTP said: "Because the death is unexplained it is treated in a different way from a non-suspicious death.

"As we don't have an immediate explanation certain things have to be done, such as a forensic examination of the site, before we can remove the body and reopen the line."

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't see how they are "struggling" to justify the line closure. Seems like a perfectly good reason to me. What else are they supposed to do? Just haul away the body and never wonder what happened?

 

[amcluesent]

At that time on a Sunday, BTP could easily have stood off until rail services had closed for the night.

Priorities need to be set by the tax payers who pay these guys wages\massive pensions, not their own sense of self importance

 

[ralphchadkirk]

So what, just stop the investigation, slow down the progress of informing the next of kin etc? How would you feel if your loved one died on a railway line but they kept things running so you didn't find out about it until the next day? How awful would that time waiting for information be?

It was perfectly justified. --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Priorities need to be set by the tax payers who pay these guys wages\massive pensions, not their own sense of self importance

Do the police not pay taxes as well?

 

[amcluesent]

How awful would that time waiting for information be?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[AlterEgo]

At that time on a Sunday, BTP could easily have stood off until rail services had closed for the night.

Priorities need to be set by the tax payers who pay these guys wages\massive pensions, not their own sense of self importance

They need to do a forensic examination of the track to find out how the person died, and why! You cannot just run trains over track which may hold clues as to where the person was struck and in what circumstances.

I'm a tax payer and I think my money was well spent on the line closure, for what it's worth. If policemen doing their job is "self important", well...!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Not in this case they weren't. The police were fully justified in closing the line.

 

[AlterEgo]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Somebody has died, and in possibly suspicious circumstances too. The police would be totally justified in letting trains run over the track that might contain their only clues...:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is standard Police procedeure (not just BTP) to hold forensic site examinations at the scene of any deaths where unexplained circumstances have occured, in order to obtain as much documentary evidence as possible which will aid their future investigations.

 

[Greenback]

Passengers stuck after services were suspended on the East Coast Main Line when a man's body was found in Stoke Tunnel, near Grantham, Lincolnshire

Services were suspended on the East Coast Main Line at around 9pm yesterday after a man's body was found in Stoke Tunnel, near Grantham, Lincolnshire, a spokesman for train company East Coast said.

British Transport Police (BTP) declared the line open again at 1.49am.

Explaining the length of time it took to reopen the line, Inspector Chris Fellows of BTP said: "Because the death is unexplained it is treated in a different way from a non-suspicious death.

"As we don't have an immediate explanation certain things have to be done, such as a forensic examination of the site, before we can remove the body and reopen the line."

That is a clear and reasonable explanation of what happened, rather than anyone struggling to justify anything. Procedures are in place to investigate unexplained deaths wherever they occur.

At that time on a Sunday, BTP could easily have stood off until rail services had closed for the night.

Priorities need to be set by the tax payers who pay these guys wages\massive pensions, not their own sense of self importance

Do you really think that the senior police officers in charge of such situations just make up the rules themselves? DO you really think there is any conenction between pensions and opertional procedures laid down nationally by the Home Office?

And why should Sunday be regarded as different to any other day? Procedures should be followed regardless of where, or when, something occurs, in spite of the obvious inconvenience it causes in certain situations.

 

[HugePilchard]

"Because the death is unexplained it is treated in a different way from a non-suspicious death."

...which is the crux of the matter. I believe BTP aim to get lines open within 90 minutes if the death is non-suspicious, so it's not as if they're unaware of the implications of an extended closure. For them to undertake a closure of nearly five hours says to me that they must have had their reasons. Frankly, if that was a member of my family that they'd found in the tunnel, I'd want them to spend as long as it takes figuring out what happened.

A common gripe about the police seems to be that they "should be out catching murderers" instead of doing whatever the complainant deems to be unnecessary or trivial... well, they were potentially out to catch a murderer in this instance - would you rather that they sat down and drank tea for those five hours instead?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I have no concerns over the Police procedure, but I do hope that the passengers delayed were kept informed and, in as far as possible, provided with refreshment. I read that 2 trains were held in between stations, one in a tunnel - that could have been truly miserable after just one hour with no indication of how much longer the delay may last. After 4 hours plus then I guess some people will have exhausted whatever patience they have.
As has been discussed on here many times, information is vital in these situations, and when there isn't much information available, then at least some sort of communication and basic supplies can extend passengers' patience a little longer.

 

[Aictos]

At that time on a Sunday, BTP could easily have stood off until rail services had closed for the night.

Priorities need to be set by the tax payers who pay these guys wages\massive pensions, not their own sense of self importance

What if it was you lying dead in that tunnel, would you expect your relatives to insist on the railway to ignore your remains and just carry on as usual, waiting for the last train before removing your body? No I very much doubt it so less attacks against people doing their job, thank you.

 

[TUC]

The issue is more that BTP do seem to vary significantly over how long they close a line for and it doesn't seem to be simply suspecious vs non-suspecious death. There is a variation in practice that has never been satisfactory explained, especially when comparing how long other police forces would close a road for in a similar incident.

 

[Greenback]

I have no concerns over the Police procedure, but I do hope that the passengers delayed were kept informed and, in as far as possible, provided with refreshment. I read that 2 trains were held in between stations, one in a tunnel - that could have been truly miserable after just one hour with no indication of how much longer the delay may last. After 4 hours plus then I guess some people will have exhausted whatever patience they have.
As has been discussed on here many times, information is vital in these situations, and when there isn't much information available, then at least some sort of communication and basic supplies can extend passengers' patience a little longer.

Very true. I was delayed for several hours once after the driver thought the train may have hit something in the Severn Tunnel. The information provided to passengers was good, we were kept fully informed of what had happened and how the front of the train would have to be examined and the tracks searched before we could proceed.

As a result of the regular updates, and refreshments that were handed handed out, I did not hear any complaints. Indeed most people who talked about expressed sympathy for the driver. Fortunately no evidence was found of any fatality on that occasion.

 

[passmore]

At that time on a Sunday, BTP could easily have stood off until rail services had closed for the night.

Priorities need to be set by the tax payers who pay these guys wages\massive pensions, not their own sense of self importance

Tax payers pay for a police service that does its job properly and doesn't turn a blind eye to incidents like this. They handled it professionally and so long as the passengers on the affected services were kept well-informed or provided with refreshments, I do not see the problem.

Clearly, you are not a tax payer...

 

[ApAp]

Obviously the police need their time to have a through investigation, I'm surprised anyone thinks otherwise.

Were services suspended in both directions? What happened to those arriving late missing their onward connections? Once the line was open did EC run all trains to their intended destinations or were some services terminated early and passengers put in hotels?

It's interesting how train companies handle the disruption. Some companies do an excellent job in bad circumstances, in my experience EC make sure free refreshments are available in the buffet for passengers in either class and staff usually do their best to keep people informed. When I had a similar delay there were also staff at KGX handing out compensation forms and directing people to taxis.

 

[andylloyd]

From what I understand from an esteemed EC contact the body in question was headless.
To date it has not been found yet, hence the reason for the very long closure.
The 2200 ex Kgx-NCL didn't arrive until about 0500 this morning due to severe congestion at Peterborough.

 

[GB]

Without wanting to be too graphic, the body was indeed headless but the head was found not long after the first reports.

 

[andylloyd]

Without wanting to be too graphic, the body was indeed headless but the head was found not long after the first reports.

Many apologies then.

 

[deltic1989]

Fully justified IMO. A random body is found with no explination then its a crime scene no mater if its next to a railway or not. The police have to investigate, well worth my tax money i have to say, and yes I would say the same if I was on one of the delayed trains.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I'm by no means an apologist for the police, but sometimes it does seem they can do nothing right. If they investigate something thoroughly and it inconvieniences people, then they are criticised and forced to try and justify it. If they don't investigate thoroughly and it turns out there was more to it, then they are also criticised. It's not just the railways where you get this, it happens on the roads too where police often come under criticism for the amount of time taken to reopen major roads after accidents. Just imagine the outcry if the police just took one look, said it was not suspitious and let the clearup begin, and some time later evidance came out that this might have been murder?
Imagine if for example they did not properly investigate and it turned out the body was of someone who was heavily connected with the phone hacking scandle and was about to leak something big, perhaps something that would take the government down. Suddenly all those who would have been moaning about the time the line was closed would be saying "why wasn't this investigated properly! corruption! coverup! incompetance!".

 

[the sniper]

The issue is more that BTP do seem to vary significantly over how long they close a line for and it doesn't seem to be simply suspecious vs non-suspecious death. There is a variation in practice that has never been satisfactory explained, especially when comparing how long other police forces would close a road for in a similar incident.

I'd be interested to see what stats you're basing this argument upon. There's recently been some talk of the BTP taking over Motorways, with one of the selling points being the way that the BTP quickly clear fatalities compared to HO forces with road fatalities. There are arguable more variables in road fatalities, but the knock on effects that result from a fatality on the network are the same.

Anyway, is it not obvious that there'll be a variation in the time it takes to deal with each fatality?! On one end of the scale you have a non-suspicious death at a station in a city or town where the victim has been seen to clearly jump in front of the train, the driver is composed and gives a full account, so do people on the platform. There's also CCTV that can be obtained. Clear cut non-suspicious suicide. Access to the site is good, the body is in one piece and is taken away quickly. Job done, NR and TOC's get their track back.

On the other hand is the fatality that happens no where near a station, identifying the location has proven difficult, accessing it once you know where it might be even harder. Then you've got to get the non-railway related agency to the site to remove the body. The body is of course in many different pieces and places as this has happened away from a station and the train was travelling at speed. An investigation takes place, the body searched. It's eventually established how/where they accessed the track, where the car to match the car key found on the body is located, and the suicide note on the passenger seat read. Thus, you've got a non-suspicious fatality that entails much more time and effort than the one in the last paragraph. Even this example excludes a heck of a lot of time consuming variations.

And for anyone who's interested in facts, the average time it took for the BTP to hand back the track at non-suspicious fatalities last year was 81 minutes. The target is 90 minutes. Source here.

Others have pointed out the flaws of Amcluesent's ignorant view of how situations should like this should be resolved, so I shan't comment on his posts. As ChrisCooper points out though, due to people like Amcluesent, the Police will always be damned if they do, and damned if they don't...

 

[syorksdeano]

What utter rubbish. If the police have found a headless body I wouldn't be bothered if the line was closed for 1 hour or 100 hours as long as they managed to complete their investigations. After all technically it was a crime scene. For all we know body parts could have been all over the railway line so waiting until end of service would have lost any evidence they may or may not have found.

OK the body was headless, but what is to say that happened on the railway? That could have happened somewhere else and the body dumped on the railway line. Those are the things that the police have to think about.

One of the things I have never understood is that the police "aim" to have any line reopened before 90 mins, it takes as long as it needs to to recover the body and if it takes longer, then it takes longer. If it was one of your relatives hit by the train you wouldn't want them to rush and just throw the body into a bag

 

[amcluesent]

Headless body in the tunnel?

I certainly wouldn't fancy being track side worker in there - you suddenly feel an ice-cold chill on your neck and hear a voice calling for help...but when you turn around the rest of the crew working 50yds down the line.

Amcluesent's ignorant view of how situations should like this should be resolved,

Not ignorant, I'm just questioning the assumptions, there's no reason why current practice and policy is 'untouchable'. When navvies where digging the tunnel, I don't expect they downed tools for 5 hours every time one was killed.

 

[Greenback]

Not ignorant, I'm just questioning the assumptions, there's no reason why current practice and policy is 'untouchable'. When navvies where digging the tunnel, I don't expect they downed tools for 5 hours every time one was killed.

With the greatest of respect, you have not questioned anything. Rather, you have decalred, in the thread title, something that is patently not true, as the explanation provided by the BTP about the circumstances of the line closure and presented in your original post here:

Passengers stuck after services were suspended on the East Coast Main Line when a man's body was found in Stoke Tunnel, near Grantham, Lincolnshire

Services were suspended on the East Coast Main Line at around 9pm yesterday after a man's body was found in Stoke Tunnel, near Grantham, Lincolnshire, a spokesman for train company East Coast said.

British Transport Police (BTP) declared the line open again at 1.49am.

Explaining the length of time it took to reopen the line, Inspector Chris Fellows of BTP said: "Because the death is unexplained it is treated in a different way from a non-suspicious death.

"As we don't have an immediate explanation certain things have to be done, such as a forensic examination of the site, before we can remove the body and reopen the line."

does not indicate any struggle to justify what had happened.

You then continued to put forward your own personal viewpoint in such a way that implied that the police involved did this for no other reason than for their own personal pleasure:

At that time on a Sunday, BTP could easily have stood off until rail services had closed for the night.

Priorities need to be set by the tax payers who pay these guys wages\massive pensions, not their own sense of self importance

The wording of your posts clearly implies that you believe that the matter did not require any investigating until all of the scheduled passenger traisn had passed for the night.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but when expressed in such a way it is only reasonable toe xpect that your views will be challenged. It would perhaps have been better to phrase the posts in a different way, maybe to ask what the procedures are in these cases, who sets them down and then, after gathering some relevant facts, make suggestions about what could be improved and how, if you still thought the procedures were unnecessary.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The wording of your posts clearly implies that you believe that the matter did not require any investigating until all of the scheduled passenger traisn had passed for the night.

There's no implication, it was said straight!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And I'm very happy to challenge and be challenged on t'interweb forums!

Do you still think the line should not have been closed, and trains run past the body?

 

[amcluesent]

Do you still think the line should not have been closed, and trains run past the body?

Yes. Britain is bankrupt. We simply can't afford all the niceties we used to think were ours by right, now we know it was all bought on the never-never.

In a small way, not bringing the ECML to a screeching halt for 5 hours would symbolise that it's a tough world we're in and we can't afford all the elf'n'safety, box-ticking, jobsworths standing about for hours palaver. People need to wake up to the reality that the next decades will be harsh, frugal and no room for sentiment.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Ok, so you are saying to save money we should stop investigating bodies found in suspicious circumstances?