Bromley North branch - Should it be abandoned?

[ChiefPlanner]

There were some limited peak services through to Charing Cross as late as the early 1980's - clearly much cherished by the (not many) users on the branch I suspect , - and unsurprisingly they were removed in order to reallocate resources and protect performance.

As you can imagine , it did not go down well.

 

[MattRat]

How about closing the road under the railway instead, to ensure such an "accident" can never happen again?

Or turn it into a pedestrian/cycle zone. Removes the problem traffic, but also promotes green travel. It's a win win to me.

 

[snowball]

How about closing the road under the railway instead, to ensure such an "accident" can never happen again?

Would cut off vehicular access to about one or two hundred houses.

 

[zwk500]

Or turn it into a pedestrian/cycle zone. Removes the problem traffic, but also promotes green travel. It's a win win to me.

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If it's the bridge I think it is (New Street Hill) then there's more than a handful of people who will now be unable to receive deliveries, be forced to park on surrounding streets, and have no emergency access should fire/medical or police attendance be required. Emergency Access could be solved with a moveable bollard, of course, but there's other considerations.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I wouldn't, the cost of getting it to anywhere east of Beckenham Jn would be astronomical. Tram-trains would come with their own set of problems.

Agree with this.

Given that a grade-separated connection to the slow lines is not viable, and taking up paths on the Fast line is to the much greater detriment of people further out, there's not really anything that can be done to the branch that's worth doing, and closure is not really justified either so best just to leave it as it is.
The solution to the bridge bash is to sign the hazards properly, assess the design for potential weak spots and improve large vehicle driver's training about their responsibilities. Also getting together with Satnav companies to mark risky bridges directly (although I wouldn't be surprised if this was already happening). The ultimate option would be to rebuild the bridge.

It would be a street tram, not going along the Chatham Main line. Having a fixed link between Grove Park and Bromley South is also good for various journey flows.

 

[30907]

I wouldn't, the cost of getting it to anywhere east of Beckenham Jn would be astronomical. Tram-trains would come with their own set of problems.

I assumed 4-SUB 4732 was meaning an independent tram route, not sharing the main line. I agree there isn't an obvious route (other than the A222) through Shortlands, and the climb to Bromley Market Square would beat Norfolk Park in Sheffield.

 

[zwk500]

I assumed 4-SUB 4732 was meaning an independent tram route, not sharing the main line. I agree there isn't an obvious route (other than the A222) through Shortlands, and the climb to Bromley Market Square would beat Norfolk Park in Sheffield.

I was addressing both options. The cost of getting it anywhere further than where it goes now, whether on street or anywhere else, would be astronomical.

It would be a street tram, not going along the Chatham Main line. Having a fixed link between Grove Park and Bromley South is also good for various journey flows.

along which streets? even if you can get a tram along Bromley Road, how do you get to Bromley south then back to Bromley North?

 

[30907]

along which streets? even if you can get a tram along Bromley Road, how do you get to Bromley south then back to Bromley North?

Since you ask: from Beckenham Jn via Albemarle Road (at-grade crossing by the Golden Arrow), through the grassed area in front of the council flats (social housing, sorry), and along the culverted Ravensbourne (alternatively Martin's Rd) through Queen's Mead to Ravensbourne Rd, straight up the High St and into the East St "triangle."
I think you would want a new bridge under the railway at Shortlands, which would be the one really major work (along with the at-grade crossings there and at Bromley North).
(Plan B: the gardens along Valley Road as far as the Pumping Station are enormous, so you could run the tram that way before bridging the railway.)

 

[MarkyT]

An idea for an enhanced layout at Grove Park that might allow Bromley North trains to run to and from London on the fast lines. A new platform face is cut into the south end of platform #3 to accommodate an extra short 'right turn lane' track so the Bromley-bound train loading and awaiting a path across the London-bound fast track can stand clear of the fast track from London. The current fast island platform 2/3 is around 9m wide currently so taking around 4m from that for the inset would still leave 5m. The work would all be south of the transfer footbridge about halfway along the platform, so would not affect any building north of there. An isolated building on the platform may have to be removed.

 

[30907]

An idea for an enhanced layout at Grove Park that might allow Bromley North trains to run to and from London on the fast lines. A new platform face is cut into the south end of platform #3 to accommodate an extra short 'right turn lane' track so the Bromley-bound train loading and awaiting a path across the London-bound fast track can stand clear of the fast track from London. The current fast island platform 2/3 is around 9m wide currently so taking around 4m from that for the inset would still leave 5m. The work would all be south of the transfer footbridge about halfway along the platform, so would not affect any building north of there. An isolated building on the platform may have to be removed.

Interesting idea, but I don't think you want to be running 4-cars from London at peak times (or any other) and there isn't room for much more...

 

[Horizon22]

If I was in charge of the public purse, it would be Beckenham Jn - Bromley - Grove Park on Tramlink. No Bakerloo line or DLR extensions to Bromley North.

And you get up Shortlands hill how? This is a major stumbling block.

As for the line well it has to remain as it is for now. Still semi-useful for those trying to get to London Bridge instead of Victoria from Bromley, but it can't be argued usage is low. One thing that would resolve this is a better connection into Grove Park instead of the very common wait of 15-20 mins. In London, interchange times are key. I'd abandon the idea of a clockface timetable on the branch and instead focus on connecting into Grove Park times. If that's irregular and leads to slightly fewer trains so be it - it will improve times on journey planners and be more viable. Better than running a train with barely anyone on. Also the branch also has 2 drivers at times, which is a real waste of resources.

In the long term, yes a DLR or Bakerloo line extension would be ideal (I personally think it is better than replacing the Hayes line with the Bakerloo although obviously dearer as you'd have to turn Grove Park platform 1 somewhat underground and tunnel through Catford area probably.

Like the recent announcement of a battery trial W. Ealing - Greenford, this might also be a very good candidate


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2022 ==

I'm wondering if the "Fast" service from Bromley North to London Charing Cross / London Victoria / etc has been thought of? (it's on the fast line side of Grove Park isn't it? ) - I assume it probably would be used, with Bromley South being a busy station? (so some of those would go to the north)

(to note - it's just a random thought, I assume that there would be no paths on the fast lines anyway)

Wouldn't be a sensible use of capacity.

 

[30907]

And you get up Shortlands hill how? This is a major stumbling block.

Assumkng you mean Swan Hill on the A222, my suggestion in post #38 avoids that by running via Bromley South and up the High St.
Not that I think it will happen

I personally think it is better than replacing the Hayes line with the Bakerloo although obviously dearer as you'd have to turn Grove Park platform 1 somewhat underground and tunnel through Catford area probably.

You would struggle to justify tube frequencies too.

 

[stuu]

And you get up Shortlands hill how? This is a major stumbling block.

From a gradient point of view it's not as steep as Gravel Hill on the way to Addington. The most difficult problem is the railway, the bridge is too low with the river underneath it. It's too low even if there was no overhead power supply

 

[30907]

The most difficult problem is the railway, the bridge is too low with the river underneath it. It's too low even if there was no overhead power supply

Pedantically, the Ravensbourne runs roughly parallel to the railway on the Village side of Station Rd/Ravensbourne Ave, not underneath the bridge itself.
But you've identified a problem - in between bridge strikes, the road used to flood quite often there! So go for my Plan B upthread through the long back gardens of Valley Rd..... sadly demolishing Shortlands station building as you do

 

[PTR 444]

Pedantically, the Ravensbourne runs roughly parallel to the railway on the Village side of Station Rd/Ravensbourne Ave, not underneath the bridge itself.
But you've identified a problem - in between bridge strikes, the road used to flood quite often there! So go for my Plan B upthread through the long back gardens of Valley Rd..... sadly demolishing Shortlands station building as you do

Could you not run the tram down Valley Road rather than through the back gardens? I’m sure the residents would be less opposed to losing their on-street parking compared with having a tramway ploughed right through their back garden!

Crossing the Chatham Line from there to Queens Mead Road will be interesting, unless you continue it down Hillside Road/Queen Anne Ave and then back up via the B228 and Bromley High Street, with the additional benefit of also serving Bromley South station.

 

[30907]

Could you not run the tram down Valley Road rather than through the back gardens?

Possibly, though it would be an awkward junction at the Shortlands Rd lights

I’m sure the residents would be less opposed to losing their on-street parking compared with having a tramway ploughed right through their back garden!Rd

I was aiming for minimum on-street, and those gardens are pushing 200ft long.

Crossing the Chatham Line from there to Queens Mead Road will be interesting,

A nice flyover on a diagonal (not a tunnel because of the river) by the pumping station was what I had in mind, then round the edge of the Mead to reach Glassmill Lane and the river.

unless you continue it down Hillside Road/Queen Anne Ave

...I think there would be real problems with losing parking spaces there.

and then back up via the B228 and Bromley High Street, with the additional benefit of also serving Bromley South station.

I'm reckoning to join the High St either via Ravensbourne Rd or off-street next to the railway (which would cost a couple of shops).

PS grateful to satellite and street view for refreshing my memory, Covid has reduced my visits to old haunts somewhat