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British Sign Language information screens at stations

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johntea

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I noticed at Leeds the other day a screen just after heading out of the gateline advertising the fact that it would be providing British Sign Language information on it soon

Looking online it seems these were introduced at London Euston in 2021 so looks like it may be a wider rollout to more Network Rail managed stations underway


London Euston has become the first railway station in the UK to provide the latest passenger information using British Sign Language (BSL). On 2 June 2021, 10 passenger information touchscreens went live around the major Network Rail-managed transport hub.

A further 10 will be installed by the end of 2021 and an additional large screen will also soon be unveiled beside the arrival and departure boards on the main concourse. In total, £1.1 million has been invested by Network Rail to develop the software that is needed and to install the British Sign Language screens at Euston station.

So I'll start with the dumb and obvious question from someone who isn't deaf...what benefit do these provide over standard text based departure board screens? They seem to work on the idea of having a lot of pre recorded content (I can't wait to see the BSL for 'See it Say it Sorted'!) with the option to knock up a message more evolving 'live' situation but according to the article that can take up to an hour and presumably someone also has to remember to remove the outdated information afterwards too!
 
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fwsmVor

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Maybe a silly question, but is there anyone in the country who knows BSL but isn't literate enough to read a destination, a platform number and a time? Departure boards in Japanese would serve a bigger market.
 

alxndr

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BSL is it's own separate language, with it's own grammar structure and word order (there are other ways of using sign language, such as Sign Supported English which does follow English word order). For some people this is their first language and English is their second language.

As I understand it not being able to use phonics (sounding words out) can make learning to read and write English much more difficult as well, and good education that takes these things into account wasn't/isn't always available. For those who have lost their hearing later in life and have English as their first language then this is likely to be less of an issue.

It's not clear exactly what information they're intending to put on the displays, but there is a lot of information which is written on signs in stations that most of us take for granted being able to read at a glance.

[Caveat, I am a hearing person.]
 

Basil Jet

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Maybe a silly question, but is there anyone in the country who knows BSL but isn't literate enough to read a destination, a platform number and a time?
BSL is a British-specific sign language, so the signs are of no use to deaf Americans, Canadians, Irish, Australians, Indians or South Africans, who have their own sign languages, limiting the usefulness even further.
 

Welly

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I'm not a BSL user either but I know that a lot of BSL users find it difficult to read English fluently largely as a result of historically poor quality deaf education provison in Britain.
 

Ediswan

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Looking at the video, it seems that it will be 'free text' information and station annoucements that will be shown in BSL rather than arrivals and departures. Given what has been said about difficulty reading English, that does make sense. Hopefully they will be seeking feedback on how useful the content is from those who can understand it.
 

Vespa

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I understand BSL I have seen some examples signed tv displays, most seems to give generic information etc, train departure and arrival times would require live or pre recorded translation.

I would have to watch the Leeds one before giving my verdict, I don't recall seeing one in London or Liverpool, it would be a good idea if the information is delivered right especially assistance type information.
 

Msq71423

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Several TPE stations have had BSL video information on their touchscreens for the last couple of months now. These show live departure/arrival/ platform info, as well as live delay and cancellation info all in BSL. Interestingly the BSL presenter on the TPE screens is the same man as shown in the article above from the Network Rail versions, though it would appear from the article the information displayed is different.

Here's the TPE news article about their launch https://mediacentre.tpexpress.co.uk...unches-british-sign-language-departure-boards
 

Vespa

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Several TPE stations have had BSL video information on their touchscreens for the last couple of months now. These show live departure/arrival/ platform info, as well as live delay and cancellation info all in BSL. Interestingly the BSL presenter on the TPE screens is the same man as shown in the article above from the Network Rail versions, though it would appear from the article the information displayed is different.
I must check it out :)
 

londontransit

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I am sure many are going to think this is unrelated however its because of the use of a particular term which many of us have objections to its use. And I debated for two days whether to write a response... But I must say I was saddened to see that particular word used here (which I don't want to repeat) because in a nutshell it is why so many of us are marginalised, discriminated, excluded, shut down. The problem is speech has inherent value. Anyone with less doesn't have that value. And that in a sense is why a lot of people use that word in particular (not just that one there is a whole lexicon that discriminates against us) and thus it reinforces the notion its only hearing + speech which have any credible validity and whose citizens are 'authorised' to be fully participant members of society....

Many of us have tried to request that this word not be used because it is discriminatory. However so many use it - even leading politicians, lawmakers, celebrities, government officials, journalists, bloggers vloggers, all use it without care or ado and when we object we are ignored. There's a whole lexicon of these negative words in use. If it was some sort of thing said against Blacks or some other minority there would be outrage and the woke brigade would be out in force - but the irony is all those groups speak anyway and its no surprise they shout out quick when something untoward is practiced. We don't have that means or opportunity. What is worse is we are shut down excluded, kept out of the way. No one cares and what is perhaps even worse is society knows we cant fight back, because, after all, one NEEDS a voice to even make any progress....

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On a matter of different note I was interested in the notion within this thread that BSL isn't compatible with other languages thus these BSL screens at Euston (and soon to be used at other NR stations) are perhaps a waste of time because Deaf people from other countries cant use them. That is not the case really. Sign languages have very similar origins thus a lot of signs have identifiers and signifiers that are common - which means there is considerable understanding of others visual languages. There is also an international sign language and that too does help.

These BSL screens are appreciated by those like myself however when they first came out they were dreadful and staff had absolutely no clue what they were for or how to communicate with us. At the time these screens were introduced it was being implied that if we needed extra information then we should seek to get that from NR staff. I have videos of NR staff (including Euston station disability assistance staff) trying to dismiss us when we tried to test these screens and then follow up the information given out on these by asking staff for further information. That was something they couldn't even do. Not one of them could sign and not one of them even had any Deaf awareness and so on Those first months of these BSL screens were pretty useless - mainly because of NR staff lack of training and awareness. Even EUS tried to dismiss the concerns we had.

Sadly most rail staff still don't communicate (and a lot don't want to write either) - that's practically 99.9% of the transport system because it is aural/oral based and when it comes to those like us they'd rather ignore us or shut us out or worse - because of those entrenched attitudes.

At least in 2023 NR has now improved the output on these screens which can sign in BSL pretty much many (not all though) announcements according to the latest information and these screens can do additional information such as when trains are ready to board, last minute platform changes, delays, cancellations etc. They are not 100% but nevertheless it is amazing what has been achieved compared to when the screen were first introduced.
 

ComUtoR

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I am sure many are going to think this is unrelated however its because of the use of a particular term which many of us have objections to its use. And I debated for two days whether to write a response... But I must say I was saddened to see that particular word used here (which I don't want to repeat) because in a nutshell it is why so many of us are marginalised,

I've read the thread and couldn't see anything specifically objectionable. I am mindful that it isn't something you will to repeat but it's helpful to educate people who use language casually and aren't aware of the offence caused.


If it was some sort of thing said against Blacks or some other minority there would be outrage and the woke brigade would be out in force

Who are "Blacks" Africans ? Indians ? Jamaicans ? I think the phrase you are looking for is "BAME" Which, in all honesty, I still kinda offensive.
 

InkyScrolls

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And once again, the 'everything is offensive' brigade have arrived.

If you can't even tell us what you've found offensive, why bother mentioning it? It just comes across as having a 'woe is me' rant.
 

Vespa

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Let's get back on track guys, could the OP provide a video of the Leeds BSL so we can make our own judgement ?


-----------------------
A seperate thread would be appropriate about deaf peoples experiences with NR positive or negative and what solutions was arrived at ?
 
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londontransit

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And once again, the 'everything is offensive' brigade have arrived.

If you can't even tell us what you've found offensive, why bother mentioning it? It just comes across as having a 'woe is me' rant.
I've read the thread and couldn't see anything specifically objectionable. I am mindful that it isn't something you will to repeat but it's helpful to educate people who use language casually and aren't aware of the offence caused.




Who are "Blacks" Africans ? Indians ? Jamaicans ? I think the phrase you are looking for is "BAME" Which, in all honesty, I still kinda offensive.
In all honesty its YOU the hearing culture that comes up with all this crap. Sort it!
 

py_megapixel

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Is @londontransit perhaps referring to the use of a word whose literal meaning refers to an inability to speak (my understanding is that the preferred term for this is mute, but please correct me if I am wrong) to mean "naive" or "stupid"?
 

johnnychips

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I work at a college with 20% deaf students. We say ‘non-verbal’ if the students don’t speak.
 

Kumquat

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I'm deaf not Deaf. My BSL is terrible (studied it for about 3 years in the 90s, not had much practice since), but all the couple dozen conversations I've had in BSL in the last 20 years have been on public transport - because a Deaf person can't figure out what's going on when something unexpected happens, they see my hearing aids, and hope I can understand them and help.

Luckily my understanding of Deaf accents is pretty good, and more importantly I'm fairly fluent in how trains work and PlatformStaffese, so we manage to figure it out.

So I agree BSL videos could be very useful for things like warning of upcoming engineering works or strike action, promoting Railcards, and promoting Passenger Assistance which in turn could be really helpful to lots of deaf people when there's disruption (if you're train crew and know that deaf person in seat X needs to get to Y, you can let them know what to do if the train stops short or whatever).

(that word 'dumb'? I'd really prefer people didn't use it)
 

InkyScrolls

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(that word 'dumb'? I'd really prefer people didn't use it)
The way you've phrased this - and the fact you've actually stated which word you're referring to! - makes people far more likely, and more willing, to do as you ask, than going on a regurgitated spiel about the 'hearing culture' ever could.

Mentioning no names, of course! ;)
 

Vespa

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The way you've phrased this - and the fact you've actually stated which word you're referring to! - makes people far more likely, and more willing, to do as you ask, than going on a regurgitated spiel about the 'hearing culture' ever could.

Mentioning no names, of course! ;)
A lot of it is a produce of education and attitude mostly out of ignorance than malice especially the older generation, correcting them by saying "just use Deaf it's simpler" jumping down their throats and going round with placards being offended is only going to get the wrong reaction.

Education is the better approach than raging, after all you want hearing to be more onside and willing to learn sign language.

I'm fluent in BSL it took me 6 months to get to that level through immersion and intensive learning, I have an aptitude for languages anyway, most with practice can achieve with reasonable proficiency after 12 months and fluent in maybe two years depending how involved they are in the deaf community.
 

johntea

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These seem to have gone live at Leeds now, certainly noticed a couple platform side this evening anyway (sorry no photo yet as I was in a bit of a dash to make a connection!) - one by the existing TVM / ticket collection machine near the gateline and another between Platform 6 and 8 where the scary holographic thing used to be many years ago

TV screens scrolling through upcoming departures with the signer videos playing underneath basically
 

Kumquat

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Could you take a minute to explain the difference. Related, would a screen reader distinguish between them ?
Just seen this.
Deaf with capital D is someone who identifies as Deaf, part of Deaf culture, and most importantly, uses sign language (so BSL in the UK).

deaf with a small d is someone who can't hear (or not well enough to be very useful), and usually can't sign very well if at all.

In my case I can hear well enough to understand someone who speaks clear BBC English, in a quiet room with no background noise, with hearing aids. As soon as there's noise around, or someone has a foreign accent, or rain has got into the aids so they're useless until dried out, then I'm left lip-reading. Which, unlike on TV, is often not very helpful.

Re screen readers - I think JAWS will by default emphasise capitalised words in the middle of a sentence - don't know if it has a rule for a small d at the start of a sentence, but there's scope to add rules for specialised vocab if they're words you come across a lot.
 

mad_rich

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Just seen this.
Deaf with capital D is someone who identifies as Deaf, part of Deaf culture, and most importantly, uses sign language (so BSL in the UK).

deaf with a small d is someone who can't hear (or not well enough to be very useful), and usually can't sign very well if at all.
It's really interesting to hear your perspective on this, thank you. I would never have made the connection before, but Deaf as an identity vs deaf as a description makes a lot of sense.

I have friends who call themselves disabled, and they're proud of it - although I was always taught not to use that word. And I know other friends who would hate to be described that way.

I'm gay, but I'd never describe myself as queer. And I don't particularly like people to think of me as LGBTQ+.

It can be difficult to navigate all these labels, but language does matter and we should always try. I find people are generally don't mind when you get it wrong, as long as they know you're making the effort.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Just seen this.
Deaf with capital D is someone who identifies as Deaf, part of Deaf culture, and most importantly, uses sign language (so BSL in the UK).

deaf with a small d is someone who can't hear (or not well enough to be very useful), and usually can't sign very well if at all.
That's news to me - and I'm deaf, so thank you for explaining that.

There's something else related to this which is puzzling me: why is giving a thumbs up apparently offensive to some deaf ( or Deaf! ) people? It's a symbol that I use all the time, and I didn't realise there was apparently a problem with it until recently...!!
 

Kumquat

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There's something else related to this which is puzzling me: why is giving a thumbs up apparently offensive to some deaf ( or Deaf! ) people? It's a symbol that I use all the time, and I didn't realise there was apparently a problem with it until recently...!!
I'm not sure it is? It's used a lot when signing.

Only thing I can think of is when a patronising hearing person does the slow loud "Can You Understand Me?" thing, with a big gurning smile and lots of thumbs-up - if it comes across like that, it would be part of being offensive.

I suppose there's signs where the thumb represents a penis in action, but I doubt that's a problem...
 

Welly

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Don't use the thumbs up in Saudi Arabia - it is as rude there as the middle finger is rude here!
 
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