british rail

[networkrail1]

i thought i had traveled back in time this evening was at doncaster and a deltic charter pulled into platform 4 then a 47 charter pulled into platform 8 i thought for a moment british rail was back untill a east coast 91 arrived and spoiled it

 

[Old Timer]

Sadly British Rail, and its ethos, has gone forever.

A sizeable proportion of those now in the Industry would never have been accepted in BR days, in some cases because of their personalities.

The whole ethos and "personality" of BR was transferred downwards from the older experience staff to the younger staff. This no longer happens, as promotion is based upon sychophancy and values which devalue public service.

Within the next five years we will see the total anilhilation of the remaining BR staff within NR as they do not fit the profile that is wanted by boil in the bag managers.

On current performance someday soon, something "big" is going to happen and it is unfortunately this that is going to be required for all to see just how bad things have become. No amount of smoke and mirrors will be able to hide it, nor will threats of discipline to staff, and the removal of those who point out the failings.

 

[Saltleyman]

Sadly British Rail, and its ethos, has gone forever.

A sizeable proportion of those now in the Industry would never have been accepted in BR days, in some cases because of their personalities.

The whole ethos and "personality" of BR was transferred downwards from the older experience staff to the younger staff. This no longer happens, as promotion is based upon sychophancy and values which devalue public service.

Within the next five years we will see the total anilhilation of the remaining BR staff within NR as they do not fit the profile that is wanted by boil in the bag managers.

On current performance someday soon, something "big" is going to happen and it is unfortunately this that is going to be required for all to see just how bad things have become. No amount of smoke and mirrors will be able to hide it, nor will threats of discipline to staff, and the removal of those who point out the failings.

Well said sir !

 

[rail-britain]

i thought i had traveled back in time this evening was at doncaster and a deltic charter pulled into platform 4 then a 47 charter pulled into platform 8 i thought for a moment british rail was back untill a east coast 91 arrived and spoiled it

Class 91 (InterCity 225 sets) were the last part of BR, and in effect are currently operated by the DfT
It's as close as you can get to "British Rail" now

 

[313103]

Sadly British Rail, and its ethos, has gone forever.

A sizeable proportion of those now in the Industry would never have been accepted in BR days, in some cases because of their personalities.

The whole ethos and "personality" of BR was transferred downwards from the older experience staff to the younger staff. This no longer happens, as promotion is based upon sychophancy and values which devalue public service.

Within the next five years we will see the total anilhilation of the remaining BR staff within NR as they do not fit the profile that is wanted by boil in the bag managers.

On current performance someday soon, something "big" is going to happen and it is unfortunately this that is going to be required for all to see just how bad things have become. No amount of smoke and mirrors will be able to hide it, nor will threats of discipline to staff, and the removal of those who point out the failings.

I do not often agree with Old Timers sentiments, but on this occasion i will agree 100% with what he has had to say and i could not off been more articulate in the comments made. Old Timer you have hit the preferable nail on the head.

 

[nedchester]

Sadly British Rail, and its ethos, has gone forever.

A sizeable proportion of those now in the Industry would never have been accepted in BR days, in some cases because of their personalities.

The whole ethos and "personality" of BR was transferred downwards from the older experience staff to the younger staff. This no longer happens, as promotion is based upon sychophancy and values which devalue public service.

Within the next five years we will see the total anilhilation of the remaining BR staff within NR as they do not fit the profile that is wanted by boil in the bag managers.

On current performance someday soon, something "big" is going to happen and it is unfortunately this that is going to be required for all to see just how bad things have become. No amount of smoke and mirrors will be able to hide it, nor will threats of discipline to staff, and the removal of those who point out the failings.

Sadly this is not only happening on the railways it's happening in many other areas of the public and private sector.

Management are only interested in the pursuit of targets, mission statements and imagine rather than the work of the organisation itself.

Good post Old Timer

 

[4SRKT]

Sadly this is not only happening on the railways it's happening in many other areas of the public and private sector.

Management are only interested in the pursuit of targets, mission statements and imagine rather than the work of the organisation itself.

Good post Old Timer

I'm less sure that it happens in areas of the private sector that have always been private, or were removed from the public sector a very long time ago. I think that there is an idea about what 'management' should be like both in true public sector organisations, and in quasi-public ones, such as the current railway set-up, or in semi-'privatised' things such as Education Bradford. These are not true private companies in the sense that they cannot be allowed to fail and the staff know that. If the particular owner at any time is deemed useless, they can be removed by the government, but the show will roll on just the same. Therefore, ludicrous fads in management (probably encouraged by avaricious consultants, or naive politicians, themselves with little or no experience), or employing people who don't know anything about the operation in senior positions are not as critically serious on a day to day basis as they would be in a truly private company that must sink or swim by its own quality and cost control.

I have worked for 15 years in the parcels industry, always in the private sector, and always in operations departments. I can say that while there are a lot of gob****es in things like marketing (and who would expect otherwise?), operations departments like to compose themselves of the best people for the job. There is no sidelong looking jealously at some mythical 'private sector', and getting an idea that a smart suit, a spiky haircut and a penchant for hanging about lap-dancing clubs is all that is needed to present the correct image and that from that everything will fall into place.

 

[rail-britain]

Nostalgia -
I had a discussion with someone recently about the former Scottish Bus Group
Apparently it was the best transport organisation in Scotland...
So how come the private companies were running newer buses and coaches, with cheaper fares
However, I do agree the SBG operated all types of services, even those that were socially necessary
The same applies to the railways with some passenger routes and services being deemed as socially necessary
At least the national bus companies are free to chose what items they have in their fleet

 

[Aictos]

At least the national bus companies are free to chose what items they have in their fleet

If only the same could be said for rail.

 

[rail-britain]

If only the same could be said for rail.

Exactly, there should be consultation between all three parties (TOC, RoSCo, and DfT/TS/WAG) to determine what the rolling stock requirements are, an effective cascade as such rolling stock is put into service, and disposal program for life expired items

 

[boing_uk]

Working for a private sector orhanisation in Highways contracted to a small local authority which effectively privatised many of its operations in a "partnership" I know where OT is coming from. Management that is more concerned with performance and target meeting rather than quality and life-long costings. A place where image is more important than ability and experience.

I think NR have gone the way of most large firms; afraid to make difficult decisions, always looking for the quick win and always, always, always, style over substance.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly, there should be consultation between all three parties (TOC, RoSCo, and DfT/TS/WAG) to determine what the rolling stock requirements are, an effective cascade as such rolling stock is put into service, and disposal program for life expired items

And who is going to pay for this rolling stock cascade? The whole point about the railway network is that since it ceased to be the major national carrier of freight in the country, the railway network is simply not profitable. That is why we're tying ourselves in knots trying to chop the railway up into bits in the hope that if you extract enough money from the profitable bits they will pay for the non-profitable bits. This is an impossible task because the railway as a whole isn't profitable. The sooner we accept the fact that the raillway is a public service which requires state funding, the sooner it can be managed to offer the service required at a reasonable cost to the public purse.

 

[tbtc]

I think we need to sort out whether the railways are privatised or not.

Either leave the private sector free to do what it wants (buy the trains it wants, run them when it wants, charge what it wants), with minor restrictions (about the level of service provided), or regulate *everything* and use the private sector to provide a contracted service (like SERCO on the Docklands Light Railway - where there is little commercial risk/ innovation, just a chance to run a contracted out service).

What we have at the moment is a confused "half way house" that satisfies nobody - the only point to what we have now is that it allows politicians the control and praise when required, but allows them to blame someone else when things go wrong.

 

[Greenback]

Exactly right, and that's why the politicians, or at least the last government, were loathe to change it!

We'll see what happens with the new lot, but if the private sector is left to do what it wants, there will be cuts on evening and early morning services, in fact anything which doesn't make a profit, unless it is protected by one of the minor restrictions!

As you can probably tell, I favour the contracted service approach. I don't see a lot of evidence of comemrcial risk anyway!

 

[Wyvern]

We'll see what happens with the new lot, but if the private sector is left to do what it wants, there will be cuts on evening and early morning services, in fact anything which doesn't make a profit, unless it is protected by one of the minor restrictions!

Well we have our bus services as an example.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the last bus from the town centre to our local stop is at 1740. A neighbour has said they have seen a bus at 1930, but they must have been hallucinating!

I can see it going the same way as the buses though. If a council wants to fund a local service they will be able to,e xcept that they won't have any money to do it as there will be huge funding cuts from central government!

 

[Wyvern]

Or like my area where the bus company runs the daytime services itself, but is contracted by the council to do the evening and Sunday services,

 

[142094]

Or like my area where the bus company runs the daytime services itself, but is contracted by the council to do the evening and Sunday services,

That's like most areas, where the company (says it) can't make a profit, then the council or PTE has to step in. However of course if buses were a publicly owned and operated venture, any profits from some routes could be used to fund the less profitable ones.

 

[Class 33]

.... message deleted. I posted a reply in this thread instead of starting a new topic.

 

[moggie]

This thread started as British Rail yet in two pages it's now become about buses - say no more:cry:

PS if the job doesn't drive us old hand out the vultures after my pension will ensure a premature exit from the industry for those of us who are lucky enough to still have one worth having.:cry::cry:

 

[Old Timer]

This thread started as British Rail yet in two pages it's now become about buses - say no more:cry:

PS if the job doesn't drive us old hand out the vultures after my pension will ensure a premature exit from the industry for those of us who are lucky enough to still have one worth having.:cry::cry:

I shouldn't bother, Old Chap.

The BR Pension Fund has now altered the scheme. Early retirement is out, with a crippling sliding scale of loss of benefits value starting at a 90% reduction at 55, and reducing to 0% (full benefits) at 65.

 

[moggie]

OT that'll be the BR deferred section I think where they can't raise the contributions! - my lot use the contributions route to squeeze us. Just what the Civevil Servants have coming to then shortly I suspect.

Oh well - might not have a choice in the matter in a year or two's time - let's see what boy george has to say next week!:roll:

 

[Old Timer]

Oh well - might not have a choice in the matter in a year or two's time - let's see what boy george has to say next week!:roll:

Hopefully if it does not suit you will point the finger where it properly lies ?

 

[the sniper]

Hopefully if it does not suit you will point the finger where it properly lies ?

In other words, don't you dare bad mouth the Conservatives for Labours failings, or else!

 

[Saltleyman]

In other words, don't you dare bad mouth the Conservatives for Labours failings, or else!

Wasn't it that other Tory failure of a PM Major (the other was Thatcher) who "privatised" BR ?:-x:-x

 

[tbtc]

I shouldn't bother, Old Chap.

The BR Pension Fund has now altered the scheme. Early retirement is out, with a crippling sliding scale of loss of benefits value starting at a 90% reduction at 55, and reducing to 0% (full benefits) at 65.

Sounds similar to most final salary pension schemes in that case.

Someone retiring at 55 is getting ten extra years of pension payments whilst their money is invested for ten years fewer; only right that there are big reductions for those doing that, so that they pay the fair cost, otherwise those retiring at 65 are paying for their colleagues who left earlier

 

[Wyvern]

In other words, don't you dare bad mouth the Conservatives for Labours failings, or else!

As an aside to whose fault the financial crisis is, did anyone see Channel 4 last night "Despatches: How the Banks Won."

 

[Old Timer]

Wasn't it that other Tory failure of a PM Major (the other was Thatcher) who "privatised" BR ?:-x:-x

The decimation of the Country's pension funds, and the destruction of the final salary pension scheme system in the UK can be very clearly pointed at one Gordon Brown.

We have moved from having one of the best pension systems in the world to to that of a Third World Country. Our Pension provision used to be the envy of the World - No longer.

All that Brown's raid has done is to add weight to the argument that money paid into a Pension Scheme is "wasted". All those years of paying nmore into the pension have been wasted. At least those who spent their money on holidays and drink, gained something from it, and for all their profligacy are not much shorter than I am in what they will receive.

Brown and Co meanwhile not only retain their final salary scheme but have only recently actually substantially increased the benefits.

What was it said about Justice ?

The only reductions in personal income Brown made was to reduce the salary for the incoming PM. Done in one of his well known rages and fits of pique.

In any other Country he would already have had his date with a lamp post.

tbtc
The BR Pension Fund was very well funded, and there was no restriction on retiring early once one had achieved 40 years in the fund (it being based on 40ths not 60ths like many pension funds).

Deferred pensioners (those who left before completion nof 40 years) were given a different but still beneficial pro-rata arrangement for early retirement. That has now been withdrawn.

As an aside to whose fault the financial crisis is, did anyone see Channel 4 last night "Despatches: How the Banks Won."

The Banks will ALWAYS win

 

[blacknight]

Sadly this is not only happening on the railways it's happening in many other areas of the public and private sector.

Management are only interested in the pursuit of targets, mission statements and imagine rather than the work of the organisation itself.

Good post Old Timer

Just discovered true meaning of PPM = P1$$ POOR MANAGEMENT