British Rail passenger information systems (PIS) / platform displays

[centro-323]

I've been thinking back to journeys made in the 80s and 90s, and was wondering if anyone could help with this query. Did BR have any sort of standardised platform displays around this time? I'm thinking more of the 'TVs' on platforms or in ticket halls rather than the large flip-boards. I'd also be interested if anyone had some good quality images of these sorts of things, particularly from the WCML or other Intercity areas. Thanks in advance!

 

[Darandio]

Do you mean like this? https://flic.kr/p/rcfVGt or this https://flic.kr/p/2hbQpD7

Although I recall seeing more yellow ones than red or blue.

 

[centro-323]

Yes that sort of thing! Although neither of those styles are what I remember seeing myself, but not sure if that's because those two are clearly custom screens for special events, or because there were many different systems floating around. Also I guess I would remember ones from the late 90s slightly better as I was travelling more often at that time.

 

[matt_world2004]

Didn't they run on BBC Micros

 

[Bletchleyite]

Preston, summer 1998 (my photo of a BR platform display showing the 0713 to Euston).

Most stations has this system though there were exceptions, e.g. Sheffield had a BBC Micro based setup that used teletext mode 7.

 

[centro-323]

Ah, now that looks more familiar, ta! I thought perhaps they had a coloured bar across the top sometimes but maybe I'm getting mixed up with Ceefax!

 

[nlogax]

The main thing I remember about those BR PIS displays was the terrible screen burn. Only rivalled by the awful plasma displays at Waterloo a decade later.

 

[LowLevel]

The main thing I remember about those BR PIS displays was the terrible screen burn. Only rivalled by the awful plasma displays at Waterloo a decade later.

They had similar at New Street. They all had the Central Trains logo burnt into them

 

[Galvanize]

Those Plasmas at Waterloo were awful…I remember when they were first put in back in 2001 or 2, not only were they hard to see because of their size, the glare from the sunlight made them even worse. Oh and they had to be rotated 90 degrees because in their original position, caused congestion on the concourse above the Entrance to the Underground Station!

Going back to the original question…London Bridge Station, I remember the through Platforms used to have Mini Solari Boards (smaller versions of the Flapper Boards), and it said on it “NEXT TRAIN” with only basic information about calling points!
For example would say (On the old Platform 4)

NEXT TRAIN:
Dartford via Bexleyheath
All Stations via Lewisham and Bexleyheath except St John’s.

Those were replaced around 2000/1 by Plasma Screens.

 

[Trainfan2019]

Some stations still had the CRT TV screens in the early 2000s. That photo of Teletext mode 7 takes me back! Nice memory.

 

[Ianno87]

The main thing I remember about those BR PIS displays was the terrible screen burn.

I remember the screens on the Down platform at Deansgate had the stations to Altrincham burned onto them several years after it ceased to be a BR line!

 

[dgl]

Didn't they run on BBC Micros

Would have made sense as they would probably be cheaper than a bespoke solution and the RGBC output was (at least somewhat) SCART compatible, plus they could had support for teletex and Prestel added rather easily with an optional "cheese wedge".

 

[Pigeon]

Most of them did not run on BBC Micros; those that did were noticeable by reason of causing an "aharr, Oi reckenoise thaat..." moment. BR were using black and white CRT displays before the BBC Micro or Teletext existed. They mostly used, or came to use, a version of the Rail Alphabet font, or at least it looked like it. They took a very long time to change to colour, preferring to keep the old black and white monitors going as long as they could - they were still repairing them in the mid-90s. A lot of the colour installations didn't happen until the BBC Micro was no longer being made, and a lot of them also continued the use of a Rail-Alphabet-like font (though a slightly different one IIRC), not a teletext one. They could have used an Archimedes, I suppose, but by that point I'd rate a PC with an appropriate video card as a more likely option.

The monitors were the usual TV-without-the-RF-bits circuitry mounted in an industrial chassis, concealed beneath a disgusting layer of filth. If anything they suffered from screen burn worse than the colour ones did. The white ones used standard TV CRTs. The yellow ones' CRTs were probably optimised for monitor applications and I don't remember them being so bad, although that may have been more down to age.

 

[krus_aragon]

A BBC Micro would strike me as an over-engineered solution (from when it was available). Even if you went for the cheaper Model A, you'd have a high-speed processor, custom video chip, and far more (expensive) RAM than is needed to drive a teletext-style display. (1K would do for the display RAM). And if using an off-the-shelf Beeb, you'd need a separate machine for each platform.

The teletext-style display (the Beeb's MODE 7) could be implemented with three chips: 6845 video address generator/CRT controller, SAA5050 teletext generator, and a 1K RAM chip. (The Beeb used these very chips to generate its teletext mode display!) You could then use whatever microprocessor system you wanted to modify the contents of that RAM chip, in order to update the information displayed on the departure screen.

It'd be very straight-forward to use one microprocessor to update the display RAM used by several departure screens. This could be an integrated, bespoke system, or a Beeb with an expansion card with 6845/SAA5050s for each connected screen.

The above corresponds to my recollections of colour departure screens on CRT TVs in the 90s. But other posters have stated that black and white screens were more common for many years. That makes perfect sense, given that monochrome CRTs were far cheaper to make/buy than colour for many decades.

But if you're designing a system to drive a monochrome CRT, then the colour-output of the SAA5050 would be largely wasted. All you'd be left with is the ROM used to map display memory contents into the correct scanlines for each character, and the ability to make some characters flash automatically.

If all you want is a character ROM, you could use any suitably programmed ROM chip for that purpose, combined with a shift register and a few more components to make a serial data signal to drive the CRT's brightness as the electron gun scans across the screen. As an added benefit, you can program the ROM chip to have whatever characters (or fonts) you wish.

So now we're down to a video address generator (e.g. 6845), a custom-programmed ROM chip, and a little bit of RAM. That, plus whatever microprocessor system updated the display RAM, and perhaps a communication system to obtain that data remotely.

As for when these devices would have become available, the microprocessor revolution really got under way - and affordable - in the mid-1970s. The other hardware (CRT controller, ROM, RAM) were also available from then, and got cheaper year-by-year.

 

[matt_world2004]

A BBC Micro would strike me as an over-engineered solution (from when it was available). Even if you went for the cheaper Model A, you'd have a high-speed processor, custom video chip, and far more (expensive) RAM than is needed to drive a teletext-style display. (1K would do for the display RAM). And if using an off-the-shelf Beeb, you'd need a separate machine for each platform.

The teletext-style display (the Beeb's MODE 7) could be implemented with three chips: 6845 video address generator/CRT controller, SAA5050 teletext generator, and a 1K RAM chip. (The Beeb used these very chips to generate its teletext mode display!) You could then use whatever microprocessor system you wanted to modify the contents of that RAM chip, in order to update the information displayed on the departure screen.

It'd be very straight-forward to use one microprocessor to update the display RAM used by several departure screens. This could be an integrated, bespoke system, or a Beeb with an expansion card with 6845/SAA5050s for each connected screen.

The above corresponds to my recollections of colour departure screens on CRT TVs in the 90s. But other posters have stated that black and white screens were more common for many years. That makes perfect sense, given that monochrome CRTs were far cheaper to make/buy than colour for many decades.

But if you're designing a system to drive a monochrome CRT, then the colour-output of the SAA5050 would be largely wasted. All you'd be left with is the ROM used to map display memory contents into the correct scanlines for each character, and the ability to make some characters flash automatically.

If all you want is a character ROM, you could use any suitably programmed ROM chip for that purpose, combined with a shift register and a few more components to make a serial data signal to drive the CRT's brightness as the electron gun scans across the screen. As an added benefit, you can program the ROM chip to have whatever characters (or fonts) you wish.

So now we're down to a video address generator (e.g. 6845), a custom-programmed ROM chip, and a little bit of RAM. That, plus whatever microprocessor system updated the display RAM, and perhaps a communication system to obtain that data remotely.

As for when these devices would have become available, the microprocessor revolution really got under way - and affordable - in the mid-1970s. The other hardware (CRT controller, ROM, RAM) were also available from then, and got cheaper year-by-year.

1.)Maybe a BBC micro was used because government organisations were encouraged to buy British

2.)Future proofing for when colour displays came in

3.) Easy to program.the custom.timetable software in basic.

 

[krus_aragon]

1.)Maybe a BBC micro was used because government organisations were encouraged to buy British

2.)Future proofing for when colour displays came in

3.) Easy to program.the custom.timetable software in basic.

The thing is, a Model A had a launch price of ₤235 (compared to a ZX81 at ₤75 assembled). That's ludicrously expensive to buy one for each platform display, but it'd be reasonable to use one per (big) station to drive a custom expansion interface for each display.

To put it another way, each platform display would be best served with a bespoke embedded solution, but an off-the shelf micro could be a good option to control them all from the office. And that could certainly be a Beeb, per reasons 1 and 3 that you give. But the pictures posted upthread show (to my eye) that those displays were not all generated directly by the Beeb's display hardware itself. (I can explain this reasoning later, if you wish.)

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There was an all-caps, white-on-black CRT system into the early 1990s at Peterborough, at least, and I think elsewhere on the ECML. I remember seeing the system in @Bletchleyite ’s photo on the WCML but not elsewhere.

A newer design had mixed-case, multi-colour CRT displays, with a thick blue bar at the top for the destination. I remember it from WAGN-land in the 90s but am pretty sure it existed in shadow franchise years if not earlier. Here’s a pic with British Rail logo:

https://mobile.twitter.com/johntilluk/status/1099955848477097984

And BBC Micros were definitely used in some places:

Uses for Beebs at British Rail

I think I mentioned before that I work in the railway industry in the UK. The other day I bumped into a former colleague, now retired, who back in about 1998

stardot.org.uk

 

[nlogax]

A newer design had mixed-case, multi-colour CRT displays, with a thick blue bar at the top for the destination. I remember it from WAGN-land in the 90s but am pretty sure it existed in shadow franchise years if not earlier. Here’s a pic with British Rail logo:

https://mobile.twitter.com/johntilluk/status/1099955848477097984

"British Rail Computing", wonderful stuff. Never clocked that detail back when monitors were in use.

 

[centro-323]

A newer design had mixed-case, multi-colour CRT displays, with a thick blue bar at the top for the destination. I remember it from WAGN-land in the 90s but am pretty sure it existed in shadow franchise years if not earlier. Here’s a pic with British Rail logo:

https://mobile.twitter.com/johntilluk/status/1099955848477097984

Definitely remember seeing that style myself, maybe in use in the Midlands too?

 

[ainsworth74]

Definitely remember seeing that style myself, maybe in use in the Midlands too?

I feel like they may have been quite widespread. I have very very vague memories of seeing screens like that in a number of different places. Leeds I'm fairly sure had them until the mid/late-00s on some platforms. Darlington I feel like had them as well. Perhaps the first "standard" screen so got rolled out quite widely?

 

[Pigeon]

A BBC Micro would strike me as an over-engineered solution (from when it was available). Even if you went for the cheaper Model A, you'd have a high-speed processor, custom video chip, and far more (expensive) RAM than is needed to drive a teletext-style display. (1K would do for the display RAM). And if using an off-the-shelf Beeb, you'd need a separate machine for each platform.
<snip>
...So now we're down to a video address generator (e.g. 6845), a custom-programmed ROM chip, and a little bit of RAM. That, plus whatever microprocessor system updated the display RAM, and perhaps a communication system to obtain that data remotely.

...which is to say, basically a Beeb with less RAM in it.

You need to design the thing, build a prototype, debug the hardware, make the tools to program it with, write the operating system for it, debug the operating system for it, find someone to build you a production run of not all that many units really, debug the additional problems that have now showed up in the production version... What you end up with, after a lot of time and expense, is something which is pretty much exactly the same kind of thing as a Beeb or a Trash 80 or a Vic 20 or whatever, just with a smaller count of a few parts and a larger count of a few others; and which probably costs more to buy per unit for your small custom run than any of those machines, especially if whoever's building them has dealt with the railways before and has nevertheless allowed themselves to be persuaded into doing it again.

Having done all that, you are now at the point where you can begin writing the application software for it and then start putting them in...

Or you could jump directly to that same point by simply ordering a van load of Beebs, certainly far more quickly and almost certainly for quite a bit less money. The notional amount you save by not including components you don't strictly need is worth a lot less than the hassle you save by having all the hardware development done for you already.

I see nothing to indicate that this isn't just what they did do, only with "Beebs" replaced by whatever was appropriate at the time they did it - use standard off-the-shelf hardware without worrying if it was a bit overspecified, in preference to ordering tailor-made devices with a specification precisely matched to the specific application. Probably the early video displays used "industrial" computer systems of the kind from which 8-bit home computers later evolved, which mostly lasted pretty well and didn't need replacing until the early home computer era was over and "everything's a PC now", so the installations with unmistakable teletext displays were limited to those installed during a comparatively brief period.

 

[krus_aragon]

A Beeb could certainly be used for prototypes and early installations, for the reasons you've listed.

Or you could jump directly to that same point by simply ordering a van load of Beebs, certainly far more quickly and almost certainly for quite a bit less money. The notional amount you save by not including components you don't strictly need is worth a lot less than the hassle you save by having all the hardware development done for you already.

I guess this depends on exactly when these displays were rolled out, and in what sort of volume. The Beeb's (undiscounted) launch price would have been very steep for a vanload's worth in the early-to-mid 80s, less so as the decade went on. Some of the photos upthread show screens that couldn't have been created by a Beeb, but are they the majority or minority?

I'm still not convinced that a cupboard full of 20+ BBC Micros would have been the long-term solution for the likes of Euston station, though.

Unless some ex-employee of British Rail's Computing division wanders by with some personal recollections, it may be a case of digging through the National Archives to get any concrete answers.

 

[Pigeon]

I guess this depends on exactly when these displays were rolled out, and in what sort of volume. The Beeb's (undiscounted) launch price would have been very steep for a vanload's worth in the early-to-mid 80s, less so as the decade went on. Some of the photos upthread show screens that couldn't have been created by a Beeb, but are they the majority or minority?

The price would also have been very steep for the same number of custom-made boxen of unique design; and the 80s versions of the kind of "industrial" 8-bit machines that they more or less would have had to use for the black and white systems they built in the 70s would almost certainly have cost them a lot more than Beebs. Then the video distribution amplifiers that accompanied each box to feed its video output to a station's worth of monitors were also very probably more expensive than the boxes themselves (again, they are not exactly "custom"-made but they're not all that far off it because so few people want them). Then there's the cost of the new colour monitors, and the cabling, and the labour to install them, which isn't negligible. So the cost of the boxen is only a rather small part of the cost of each installation anyway, and although the Beeb was expensive compared to most other home computers it was cheap compared to the kind of kit that was sold for "serious" industrial/laboratory uses - for which reason, indeed, a lot of those users started using Beebs instead of the "serious" kit.

Most of the colour displays I remember seeing when they were either brand new installations or replacements for black and white ones were being driven by something with obviously at least some kind of connection with those 70s black and white systems, since they used the "same" font - either Rail Alphabet or something very similar - I'm not sure if the colour font was quite identical with the black and white one, but they shared the characteristic of looking like Rail Alphabet and so needing something a bit better than the usual kind of text-display hardware to generate them. There undoubtedly were also systems using a teletext character generator, which may or may not have been the one in a Beeb, which I tended to find noteworthy for that reason, but I never remember them being anything like as common as the "ordinary" ones. They tended to occur in clusters, so I suppose if you lived in the area of a cluster you could get a distorted impression of how common they were overall.

 

[Scotrail314209]

On those CRT screens. I believe one of the last surviving examples was at Prestwick International Airport. They lasted until at least 2017/18 when they started getting replaced by screens similar to the new ones on Greater Anglia.

 

[AY1975]

Some stations still had the CRT TV screens in the early 2000s. That photo of Teletext mode 7 takes me back! Nice memory.

Manchester Piccadilly certainly did: you can see them in this clip from the last Class 101 DMU workings on Christmas Eve 2003. At 1 min 27 sec there's a close-up of the screen showing the last ever Class 101 service train out of Piccadilly.