Butts
Veteran Member
Is it possible that British Airways would ever bid for a Rail Franchise ?
Or is one Airline Company enough ?
Or is one Airline Company enough ?
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British Airailways ????
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Schnellzug
Established Member
I'm sure I read once that Air France/KLM, or Lufthansa, or someone like that, were at one time interested in running Open Access services via the Channel Tunnel. Who knows, if this HS2 thing is ever built, they might decide it would be a cost-saving alternative to domestic Shuttles. Though I hope that if they did, it would be on an Open Access basis and not having to do what the Government instructs them to, which has rarely so far done much to encourage entrepreneurial flair.
AFKL were - particularly in running services to Roissy CDG (rather like the domestic TGV'AIR service) to get more people from the UK travelling on Air France. It's a nice idea.
We may see more interest if/when HS2 opens and if/when it runs via Heathrow.
We may see more interest if/when HS2 opens and if/when it runs via Heathrow.
route:oxford
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Is it possible that British Airways would ever bid for a Rail Franchise ?
Or is one Airline Company enough ?
Not sure if it would be branded "BA", I could see a version of one of their heritage brands operating on the East coast though...
"British Caledonian Railways"
Butts
Veteran Member
lookingforit35
Member
lookingforit35
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BA Connect...
Or for those old enough to remember, British Airtours (for engineering diversions).
I'll get my coat.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
At one time I think BA were in the Eurostar consortium (not a franchise, of course), but soon backed out to concentrate on flying planes.
They would only be interested in long distance, and as they run the main competing air services (Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh) there would be competition issues if they bid for WC or EC.
AF/KLM are interested in running high speed services on the Dutch/Italian high speed lines, but I'm not aware they have put real money on the table yet. Most airlines have enough on their plate just now.
While Virgin has a rail franchise I'd say this is more a Virgin Group thing (ie Branson's personal interest) than anything to do with Virgin Atlantic.
VT and VS seem to run in separate silos. You can earn VS miles by travelling on VT, but you can't redeem VS miles on VT.
Some other airlines are much more involved with trains (eg AF/SNCF, LH/DB, LX/SBB etc), but only on a commercial basis (ie they don't operate any trains themselves).
If West Coast didn't attract any airline interest (other then Virgin) I can't see any other airline bids for other franchises.
In any case the current franchise model does not encourage new entrants without a rail industry track record, so an airline would have to buy a TOC first to start the process.
They would only be interested in long distance, and as they run the main competing air services (Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh) there would be competition issues if they bid for WC or EC.
AF/KLM are interested in running high speed services on the Dutch/Italian high speed lines, but I'm not aware they have put real money on the table yet. Most airlines have enough on their plate just now.
While Virgin has a rail franchise I'd say this is more a Virgin Group thing (ie Branson's personal interest) than anything to do with Virgin Atlantic.
VT and VS seem to run in separate silos. You can earn VS miles by travelling on VT, but you can't redeem VS miles on VT.
Some other airlines are much more involved with trains (eg AF/SNCF, LH/DB, LX/SBB etc), but only on a commercial basis (ie they don't operate any trains themselves).
If West Coast didn't attract any airline interest (other then Virgin) I can't see any other airline bids for other franchises.
In any case the current franchise model does not encourage new entrants without a rail industry track record, so an airline would have to buy a TOC first to start the process.
Eagle
Established Member
Virgin Group seem to just go for a "see something and bid for it" kind of way, much like how they pretty much have ended up with a monopoly on cable services in the UK. As part of a consortium they bid (and failed) for a couple of ITV franchises in the early 1990s. All these various interests are kept pretty much separate other than the common ownership.
T163R
Member
BA London Eye.
I'll get my coat, too.
I'll get my coat, too.
That's not strictly true. There was never real competition in the cable TV market. No area had more than one provider.
WatcherZero
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My area had a choice of two, though I could understand many areas not having a choice.
Yes, it's about as silly as the railway where most people would have to move house to use a different operator (comparing when a company had a franchise to provide cable TV for any particular local authority).
It's so annoying that Virgin has no requirement to cable up new areas.
It's so annoying that Virgin has no requirement to cable up new areas.
Minilad
Established Member
If BA ever get a rail franchise it won't be long before the trains only serve destinations in London and the rest of the network nothing.
British Airways...London Airways more like
British Airways...London Airways more like
rail-britain
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As above, they would probably only be interested in the West Coast, East Coast, and at a push Great Western and Cross Country
Ironically, Cross Country might actually sit quite well with their current airline operations as well as avoiding any competition issues
However, the same as Sea Containers experienced with GNER, their priorities lie elsewhere, and as the DfT have learned from bitter experience giving such a franchise to a new entry is high risk and they really seem to be avoiding this now
WestCoast
Established Member
Correct. BA bothering about the regions? NO. KLM serve more UK airports from their hub in Amsterdam.
BA don't have a domestic flight network, its rather limited, they sold all that to Flybe.
Butts
Veteran Member
I think you will find that they exchanged BA Connect for a shareholding in Flybe of which they own about 20%.
The reason they sold most of the domestic routes was because they couldn't make any money out of them.
Being a legacy carrier they have far higher costs than most airlines ie wages and much better terms and conditions.
Being a good union member I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted them to continued by halving the staff wages and reducing their benefits like they have done with a lot of the Gatwick Crews.
The reason Flybe can operate the services is that they pay much lower wages and the staff have poorer benefits.
The services are also much poorer and no cheaper with all the little "add ons"
in a lot of cases.
On the services they still operate London to Aberdeen,Edinburgh and Glasgow the service is far better than Flybe and I would use them as first choice.
WestCoast
Established Member
KLM still serve more UK airports than BA, it's a fact. I don't want to fly via London so I dont fly BA. End of. The same is true for many people I have spoken to. My point was that BA are not really interested in direct services from the regions anymore, they only serve Manchester and Newcastle in England apart from the London airports. That is their business strategy, I cannot argue with it, but I just do not fly with them. They are a decent airline but tranferring through Heathrow extending the journey time and increasing the stress is not worth it on short-haul flights.
To be honest I dont care about "service" on short domestic hops, and I can avoid "add-ons". BAs catering offer on European flights is pretty rubbish anyway in "EuroTraveller" or whatever it is called nowadays.
Forget a rail franchise then. If Flybe can make money out of regional services then that is great, but I will add I dont think the service is "much poorer" at all. Flybe arent 5 star but they are not awful! If BA cant run a domestic flights operation, then how can they manage a rail franchise??
As a regular flyer on Manchester to Hannover, I am reasonably happy, they are rather expensive but not that bad at all! BA Connect was nothing special really IMO.
Not that working conditions always affects service, I have had some helpful and friendly crews on Ryanair before, and I am sure working at Flybe is much better than that.
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Minilad
Established Member
Do Air France only serve Paris. Lufthansa only Frankfurt.
No. So whats the difference
No. So whats the difference
The wage bill is only one part of the savings - aircraft utilisation is as (if not more) important. LCC aircraft typically have 20 minute turnarounds, operating from secondary airports. It increases the risk of delays, and means cabin crew have to do a perfunctory clean before landing, and means there's very little contingency when things go wrong.
The LCCs are also generally point-to-point airlines (although FlyBe do have some codes ares now). Connections are entirely at your own risk, which is not a good idea if you've got a long-haul on the other end. Another big saving.
The LCCs are also generally point-to-point airlines (although FlyBe do have some codes ares now). Connections are entirely at your own risk, which is not a good idea if you've got a long-haul on the other end. Another big saving.
WestCoast
Established Member
Flybe are best described as a hybrid airline, they are marketed as low cost (which is not usually true) but they offer connections at some airports, allocated seating, economy plus and lounges, codeshares and interline agreements with Air France, BA, Etihad, BMI and others and they fly more than one type of (regional) aircraft. They have elements of low cost with baggage charges e.t.c.
Their costs are not going to be that low, nowhere near easyJet or Ryanair I would say.
Butts
Veteran Member
The difference is that in the UK there are far more low cost carriers than in France or Germany. Some Governments have protected their legacy carrier more than others.
The UK gets the cheapest fares in Europe as a result but often the 2nd class service on the LCC. (compared to BA/AF/KLM) etc.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
It has not taken long for the question originally asked about BA and railways to be completely subjugated by postings on air travel and the like.
WestCoast
Established Member
It is not irrelevant in this case, since my post was questioning whether BA had any interest in running a domestic rail franchise when they lack a sizeable domestic flying programme apart from shuttles to and from London airports. Often parts of a thread have a less obvious link to the original topic.
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Well the two big LCCs have infiltrated France and Germany too and Germany, unlike France, has its own low-cost airlines, the difference being that one is owned by the national carrier!
In the current financial climate I see little or no potential for BA to make an investment into a rail franchise. Besides, with the amount of strikes and mass walkouts their cabin crew seem to be holding every two weeks, half of 'British Railways' trains would constantly be plagued by missing crew and delayed journeys anyway.
Butts
Veteran Member
They should fit in quite nicely then
They could probably give FirstGroup a good run for their money.....
I think the only operator BA would be interested in would be Heathrow Express if it hasn't already got a chunk of it, I cannot see why BA would ever want the WC or EC as it will be in competition with itself and one of the sectors either rail or air would suffer profits from the promotion of the other.
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