Britain's Boring Preservation Movement

[WestRiding]

Quite a simple one really.After recently visiting several preserved railways and tourist railways in Europe, ours look very boring and stuck in a rut. Especially in regards to open carriages, why can we not sit outside in converted MK1 coaches in the summer months on such as the NYMR, Embsay...... the list goes on. I suppose sitting in a foisty damp coach is in keeping with 1955 but why have we not diversified to include open sided or open coaches? Imagine such as the NYMR with open coaches on a nice summer's day. And before people quote our weather, Germany and Austria, even the Czech Republic and Switzerland manage well.

 

[theageofthetra]

Quite a simple one really.After recently visiting several preserved railways and tourist railways in Europe, ours look very boring and stuck in a rut. Especially in regards to open carriages, why can we not sit outside in converted MK1 coaches in the summer months on such as the NYMR, Embsay...... the list goes on. I suppose sitting in a foisty damp coach is in keeping with 1955 but why have we not diversified to include open sided or open coaches? Imagine such as the NYMR with open coaches on a nice summer's day. And before people quote our weather, Germany and Austria, even the Czech Republic and Switzerland manage well.

Completely agree. The K & ESR would be another great one for an open coach. Before anyone cries health & safety- two of the most litigious countries in the world - US & Australia have plenty of heritage lines with completely open coaches which are great in nice weather.

The only issue here would be those with very tight loading gauges such as in Wales.

The simplest design would be similar to ones in the States where a Budd coach (their Mk1) has a concrete floor to make the centre of gravity nice and low and sides up to just above waist height. They are either completely open or have a light roof on struts in wetter areas or if coal firing rather than oil is used.

Also let local young artists and designers loose on the decor- there are loads of Mk1/2s which are of no great historic importance they could work on. The railways gets a refurbed coach for free whilst the artists get a free showcase & blank canvas of their work.- There are some fabulous examples of this on some preserved lines I have been on abroad, some in Japan are staggeringly beautiful and in a rail car that is no more historic to them than say a Pacer.

 

[WestRiding]

I fear the only issue here are purists who would not dream of having an open coach against a Black 5. Even better convert some old waggons to open cars giving the impression of a freight train. Save seeing miles of wagons in disrepair that will never get restored but the railways insist on looking like a junk yard. Look at the long line of rubbish stored outside Pickering Station. It was like it 30 years ago and still like it today. What better opportunities than this rubbish under tarps to convert and use. Nothing worse than a hot day, on a full train in a foisty airless mk1 in the stunning scenery that is the NY Moors.

 

[DarloRich]

try the Welsh Highland Railway or Beamish.................

personally i don't want to sit in a converted coal truck - how will I get my beer?

 

[WestRiding]

Ah yes I forgot Beamish. Sat outside for 100 yards each way at 4mph.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The Lake Bala railway in Wales has open sided cars.

I guess a big issue is simply money. To build new coaches, or make major adjustments to existing ones will cost a lot of money and unless it was definitely going to bring in more passengers, it would be hard to fund.

From my understanding, a lot of international heritage lines are run as commercial 'tourist railways', so the owners are prepared to invest money if it will be a return on investment. Most UK lines are run by volunteers, most of whom do so to enjoy restoring old coaches and locomotives back to original condition. Faced with a row of new, open, tourist cars, they might be less interested in volunteering.

 

[WestRiding]

Ok agreed a few narrow gauge railways have open coaches. Standard Gauge?

 

[Iskra]

I'm sure people will love paying to get covered in soot, or even a hot coal- I know someone who was hit by one on the head. It would be a health and safety nightmare. Increased insurance premiums too. An operational nightmare too: what do you do when it's sunny in the morning but forecast to rain in the afternoon? Suddenly you've lost a rake of carriages. Then there's the cost of the new carriages. You would also get some people who don't want to travel in an open air coach.

How about we just stick to the plentiful, easy to maintain, Mk1- those who favour a roof can remain seated, those who wish to can use the many opening windows.

 

[GusB]

try the Welsh Highland Railway or Beamish.................

personally i don't want to sit in a converted coal truck - how will I get my beer?

Convert a water-tower?

 

[WestRiding]

I'm sure people will love paying to get covered in soot, or even a hot coal- I know someone who was hit by one on the head. It would be a health and safety nightmare. Increased insurance premiums too. An operational nightmare too: what do you do when it's sunny in the morning but forecast to rain in the afternoon? Suddenly you've lost a rake of carriages. Then there's the cost of the new carriages. You would also get some people who don't want to travel in an open air coach.

How about we just stick to the plentiful, easy to maintain, Mk1- those who favour a roof can remain seated, those who wish to can use the many opening windows.

Ermmmmmm, do as the rest of Europe do.One open coach with wooden seats in a rake of coaches. Zillertal. HSB. SNCF yellow train. JHMD. The list goes on and they all seem to manage their rakes and health and safety well enough. The reason I go to RGER is because they have open coaches come rain or shine.

 

[DarloRich]

Ermmmmmm, do as the rest of Europe do.One open coach with wooden seats in a rake of coaches. Zillertal. HSB. SNCF yellow train. JHMD. The list goes on and they all seem to manage their rakes and health and safety well enough. The reason I go to RGER is because they have open coaches come rain or shine.

And I am quite happy sitting inside my mki thanks. horses for courses etc.

 

[LWB]

Quite a simple one really.After recently visiting several preserved railways and tourist railways in Europe, ours look very boring and stuck in a rut. Especially in regards to open carriages, why can we not sit outside in converted MK1 coaches in the summer months on such as the NYMR, Embsay...... the list goes on. I suppose sitting in a foisty damp coach is in keeping with 1955 but why have we not diversified to include open sided or open coaches? Imagine such as the NYMR with open coaches on a nice summer's day. And before people quote our weather, Germany and Austria, even the Czech Republic and Switzerland manage well.

Surely our unpredictable weather has a lot to do with this? Also, the mindset of most heritage operators is firmly locked (moderately successfully to date) in 'nostalgia', Heartbeat, Second World War weekends etc. The cost of manufacturing/converting coaching stock must deter many of them too, as must the trouble of making out safety cases etc.
On the other hand, the fact that ever increasingly fewer and fewer visitors were born within half a century of all that should be a worry to those in charge so perhaps the OP has a point.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The cost and trouble of converting a Mk1 to have disabled access i high enough. Let alone ripping the roof off.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Like new built steam locomotives, I suspect one day preserved lines will have to start running new coaches when the old stock simply becomes impossible to maintain, but it will require a large scale investment across many lines to make it financially viable.

And I am quite happy sitting inside my mki thanks. horses for courses etc.

I think a lot of people do. When I was on the Lake Bala railway the other week, had the open coach almost to ourselves, but plenty of passengers in the enclosed cars.

 

[theblackwatch]

It's hardly preserving a coach is it if you take the roof off it! Nor would it, I suspect, be in line with the aims and objectives. Remember, the vast majority of railways are charities with educational objectives, not theme parks.

You will find that most railways in the UK are way above many lines in the rest of Europe, which in a lot cases operate on just a few days a year with very limited rolling stock - whereas lines like the NYMR can have as many trains (and I suspect passengers) in a single day. Clearly, the NYMR's visitor numbers of over 300,000 passengers per year, and a turnover of more than £2 million must mean they are getting it totally wrong. :P

 

[6Gman]

It's hardly preserving a coach is it if you take the roof off it! Nor would it, I suspect, be in line with the aims and objectives. Remember, the vast majority of railways are charities with educational objectives, not theme parks.

Beat me to it! How does cutting holes in a historic vehicle represent "preservation"?

 

[theblackwatch]

And I forgot to add... It has been possible to travel on the NYMR on an open top vehicle - the line hired the replica 'Planet' as part of an event a few years ago and it worked between Pickering and Levisham. 'Rocket' has also operated at Pickering. Shame the OP didn't attend!

 

[2HAP]

Aren't MK1 carriages a monococque construction? Can't cut holes in roof without compromising structural strength.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I suspect if anyone wanted open carriages, a new build would prove far easier.

Would substantial changes to a carriage's construction require new crash worthiness testing? I assume Mk1 stock etc. is Grandfathered in?

 

[XDM]

Ravenglass & Eskdale railway is about 8 miles long in open coaches. It is a wonderful trip & I am told, but have not been able to get it confirmed, that no one has been injured from being in an open carriage since the 1920's opening.
Our standard gauge heritage lines could copy the simple design- 2 long steel beams sitting on conventional bogies(& both the Swanage & Bluebell have piles of bogies stored on the track side) & a a wooden plank floor, low side wall & seats. No doors. A carriage like that could be built by any joiner for a few thousand pounds,including the two beams. What fun on the Bluebell or Swanage. If it rains go into a conventional coach. I was told the Ravenglass 20 seater, 30 foot coaches, weigh less than a ton. So a scaled up 60 foot version at say 7 tons will be a doddle to haul in addition to the conventional coaches.

 

[Flying Phil]

The Great Central has got a Mk1 coach which they converted to an open end with roof and railings....there was much wailing and knashing of teeth from the purists! But traveling in an open coach/brake van veranda/ Planet truck is a fantastic experience.

2HAP - I don't think Mk 1's are Monocoque, so the roof is not really structural.

 

[AM9]

... 2HAP - I don't think Mk 1's are Monocoque, so the roof is not really structural.

MKIs aren't monocoque, - they are fabricated/coachbuilt onto a rigid chassis that only has 200T buffing strength and rigidity.
Just look at what happened at the 1988 Clapham Junction crash.

 

[theblackwatch]

Ravenglass & Eskdale railway is about 8 miles long in open coaches. It is a wonderful trip & I am told, but have not been able to get it confirmed, that no one has been injured from being in an open carriage since the 1920's opening.
Our standard gauge heritage lines could copy the simple design- 2 long steel beams sitting on conventional bogies(& both the Swanage & Bluebell have piles of bogies stored on the track side) & a a wooden plank floor, low side wall & seats. No doors. A carriage like that could be built by any joiner for a few thousand pounds,including the two beams. What fun on the Bluebell or Swanage. If it rains go into a conventional coach. I was told the Ravenglass 20 seater, 30 foot coaches, weigh less than a ton. So a scaled up 60 foot version at say 7 tons will be a doddle to haul in addition to the conventional coaches.

I can't see what this theme park type vehicle you talk of would have to do with a railway preservation, or the objectives of Swanage or Bluebell? It sounds more like it would be suited near the NYMR, at Flamingoland.

 

[philthetube]

I can't see what this theme park type vehicle you talk of would have to do with a railway preservation, or the objectives of Swanage or Bluebell? It sounds more like it would be suited near the NYMR, at Flamingoland.

If it increases revenue it increases preservation opportunities.

 

[edwin_m]

Open coaches would have to be stored in a shed, which would have to be quite big for a large fleet. Whereas normal Mk1s can be kept in the open.

 

[VEP3417]

do what everyone else does....stick your head out the window :P

i dont recall going on any rail tour or heritage railway and thinking.....this is boring..

 

[theblackwatch]

If it increases revenue it increases preservation opportunities.

Not if the revenue is swallowed up by extra costs.

As has been pointed out, the GCR has a Veranda coach, the NYMR has operated Planet/Rocket, so the opportunities are there. Perhaps the OP could hire the veranda coach for the day? Money where the mouth is and all that....

 

[reddragon]

The WHR had (past tense) a nice fleet of open carriages.

UK weather, growing passenger demand & journey length put pay to that!

2 semi open carriages remain after the open carriages were partially enclosed. The rest are now closed carriages.

Open carriages work in hot countries, not the UK.

 

[jonty14]

I live in Germany but I find UK railway preservation sites far more interesting. What I like about the UK is that the whole railway is preserved not just locomotives. The experience is far better. Where I live in Germany there is a preservation site. There is no public access and the sidings are full of rusting rolling stock. They are just interested in the locomotives. Each to there own I suppose.

 

[plarailfan]

Here's a snippet that I filmed on the Middleton railway. They have one carriage, which has an open verandah on one end of it. The missus and daughter have aquired a black and sooty face many times while passing through the tunnel and they love it ! Straight home for a wash afterwards though ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWqqmKCLBNs