Britain discussion

[kennethw]

Britain isn't a country; it's an island made up of three countries. So when you mention "the country", please make it clear which of the three you're on about..

I thought Britain was composed of England, Sotland Wales & Northern Ireland.

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought Britain was composed of England, Sotland Wales & Northern Ireland.

That would be the UK. Great Britain is an island which contains England, Scotland and Wales. Ireland is another island next to Great Britain which contains Ireland and Northern Ireland.

 

[yorksrob]

Strictly speaking, Great Britain is the name of the island encompassing England, Scotland and Wales whilst the United Kingdom is a political unit encompassing these countries along with Northern Ireland. I think Britain on it's own is a colloquial term which could describe the political UK or the geographical Great Britain.

 

[deltic1989]

Or you could use the term the British Isles, which then encomapsses England, Scotland (including the Shetlands and Orkneys), Wales, Ulster , The Channel Islands and, The Isle Of Man.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Or you could use the term the British Isles, which then encomapsses England, Scotland (including the Shetlands and Orkneys), Wales, Ulster , The Channel Islands and, The Isle Of Man.

The British Isles is England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland AND the entire Rep of Ireland, and all islands within. GB is just England, Scotland and Wales and all islands, and the UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and islands

 

[Bedpan]

The British Isles is England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland AND the entire Rep of Ireland, and all islands within. GB is just England, Scotland and Wales and all islands, and the UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and islands

The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are not part of the UK though. Don't know about the Isle of Man, but the Channel Islands aren't even part of the EU.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are not part of the UK though.

They're Crown Dependencies as I recall aren't they?

 

[yorksrob]

The British Isles is England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland AND the entire Rep of Ireland, and all islands within. GB is just England, Scotland and Wales and all islands, and the UK is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and islands

Indeed, or you could use the more modern term “the Atlantic Archipelago” since the Irish Republic doesn’t like to be lumped in with the term “British” . I don’t think this has caught on much yet though.

Or you could use the term the British Isles, which then encomapsses England, Scotland (including the Shetlands and Orkneys), Wales, Ulster , The Channel Islands and, The Isle Of Man.

Ulster is an interesting one since three of its counties (Monaghan, Donegal and Cavan) are actually in the Irish Republic.

 

[me123]

They're Crown Dependencies as I recall aren't they?

Aye, they're totally self-governed. They have historical and traditional links to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (to give it its Sunday name), but they are totally separate.

They do, however, remain "British dependencies of the crown", and Queen Elizabeth is also Queen of the Channel Islands (she's known as the Duke of Normandy) and, as such, is represented on the Islands' banknotes. I think her role is similar to her role in Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.

Here's a link from 10 Downing Street (archived from the Labour administration) which explains Crown dependencies. It also refers to the constituent nations as "countries within a country". It has been well documented, and widely accepted, that each of the constituent nations of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is in itself a country.

 

[ainsworth74]

Here's a link from 10 Downing Street (archived from the Labour administration) which explains Crown dependencies.

Good link, thanks for that.

Also I see this thread has been split, had me a bit confused there for a minute :-?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are not part of the UK though.

They're Crown Dependencies as I recall aren't they?

Yes, that's the official term, but I'm not persuaded that, without a robust Constitution, the I o M's status is fully defined in Administrative matters. I do believe that the status of some decisions by the Westminster Government have an inadequately-defined impact on the I o M.
As just one example, if Westminster chose to join the Eurozone, and consequently relinquish the Pound Sterling, could the Tynwald (the Manx Government) choose to retain the Pound? and if so, how would it achieve currency conversions on the international markets?

 

[me123]

The Crown Dependencies could retain the pound sterling if they wanted to, but in reality they would also join the euro for simplicity, and to support the islands' economies.

However, whereas we would get a referendum for this, they would in effect be forced to go along with our decision. And I don't think they're too keen on the idea; Jersey is already becoming like the "Swiss Bank" of the British Isles, and joining the euro would likely boost the "tax haven" status of the Crown Dependencies.

And, in terms of banknotes, they'll want to continue to print their own, but won't be allowed to by the ECB. So it would probably be an unpopular decision to the public.

So, they're really trapped. I wonder if the feelings of the dependencies would be considered in any referendum on joining the eurozone, seeing as how they'll be forced to do what we do anyway.

 

[LE Greys]

It's also worth mentioning the difference between a Kingdom and a Principality. England and Scotland are Kingdoms, Wales is a Principality, while Ulster (not Northern Ireland) is one of the four provinces of Ireland, along with Munster, Leinster and Connaught. None of the above are nations, the UK is one single nation, I'm not sure that "state" really applies at all. Speaking of states, the USA has forty-six states in the Union (the rest are commonwealths). If the UK ever decided to join the USA (probably as a result of some collective lunacy) the USA would finally have fifty states, but fifty-four stars on the flag, plus a load of extra dependent territories (similar status to the Marianas).

Confusing, isn't it?

 

[chic]

It's also worth mentioning the difference between a Kingdom and a Principality. England and Scotland are Kingdoms, Wales is a Principality, while Ulster (not Northern Ireland) is one of the four provinces of Ireland, along with Munster, Leinster and Connaught. None of the above are nations, the UK is one single nation, I'm not sure that "state" really applies at all. Speaking of states, the USA has forty-six states in the Union (the rest are commonwealths). If the UK ever decided to join the USA (probably as a result of some collective lunacy) the USA would finally have fifty states, but fifty-four stars on the flag, plus a load of extra dependent territories (similar status to the Marianas).

Confusing, isn't it?

It is when you say Wales is a principality.

 

[Oswyntail]

It is when you say Wales is a principality.

Well Wales is not, and never has been, a separate state in its own right. IIRC, it was only when it was established as a Principality of the English crown that it achieved anythling like a legal or political unity covering the same rough territories as the romantic notion of Cymru.
Ducks to avoid flying leeks

 

[4SRKT]

If Scotland, Wales and England are 'countries' it flies in the face of everything I've ever thought a country is. The 'country' is the UK. As someone else has pointed out, Scotland and England are kingdoms, and Wales is a principality. Northern Ireland is an entirely artificial construction born of political necessity to 'resolve' an impossible situation, and subsequently mishandled for 50+ years before something like civil war forced the UK government to act and sort it out (at least superficially).

While not a federation, the UK is closer to that than it once was. Maybe that's the best outcome we can hope for. An independent Scotland would be a sad indictment of two people of common ancestry's inability to live together on the same island in the same polity. Politically divided islands (or peninsulas) don't exactly have a great track record. Cyprus anyone? Korea? Or closer to home, Ireland?

 

[Old Timer]

As given to us at school many years ago.

Britain consists of England and Wales.

Great Britain is the official name given to the two kingdoms of England and Scotland, and the principality of Wales.

The term United Kingdom includes Great Britain and Northern Ireland, although the term Great Britain is often used improperly to refer to the UK.

The "Country" is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as shown on the front of the Passport.

The Isle of Man and Jersey/Guernsey technically do not form part of the UK as they are defined as Crown Dependencies, i.e. they are "possessions of the Crown". For nationality purposes however they are treated as being part of the UK, although they are separate from Governance by the UK.

 

[CarterUSM]

As given to us at school many years ago.

Britain consists of England and Wales.

I was completely unaware of this!!! I know the Romans called what is now England and Wales Brittania but i thought it was encompassed to include what is now Scotland also. In any case, i believe King James VI & I decreed he was the King of Great Britain to distinguish this at the union of the crowns. There is also a case the the 'Great' was added to distinguish us from Brittany but i'm not sure how accurate that may be if at all.

 

[Zoe]

If the UK ever decided to join the USA (probably as a result of some collective lunacy) the USA would finally have fifty states, but fifty-four stars on the flag, plus a load of extra dependent territories (similar status to the Marianas).

Wouldn't the UK just join as a single state called Great Britain and Northern Ireland? There would be no need for the constituent countries to be states in their own right. Of course the US would likely never accept the UK in any case, they won a war to be free from the British.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course the US would likely never accept the UK in any case, they won a war to be free from the British.

I would have thought it would be a supreme irony if the former colonial master (the UK) became a state within the the former colony (the US)!

Still I don't see that particular course of action in a our near future.

 

[CarterUSM]

I would have thought it would be a supreme irony if the former colonial master (the UK) became a state within the the former colony (the US)!

Still I don't see that particular course of action in a our near future.

The mere thought of it sickens me!! I don't mind the yanks however, i find them amusing, if a bunch of colonial upstarts.

 

[me123]

Of course the US would likely never accept the UK in any case, they won a war to be free from the British.

I think they would. I'm sure many would like to see the tables turned; seeing as how we used to own them, I'm sure they'd love to end up owning us! Also, remember that the US of A just loves to force their way of life on just about everyone else, so they'd be more than happy to do so with us. We do, of course, still have significant amounts of North Sea oil...

 

[LE Greys]

The mere thought of it sickens me!! I don't mind the yanks however, i find them amusing, if a bunch of colonial upstarts.

I have to say I agree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wouldn't the UK just join as a single state called Great Britain and Northern Ireland? There would be no need for the constituent countries to be states in their own right. Of course the US would likely never accept the UK in any case, they won a war to be free from the British.

This came from a debate I remember once about the reason why Canada could never join the USA. Each one of the ten provinces and three territories would insist on becoming a full state (if Rhode Island can be a state, so can Prince Edward Island). That suddenly adds a massive political entity, including twenty-six senators, and totally changes the balance of political power. That's why Washington would never countenance it.

Add to that the fact that the referendum would be about 90% against!!!

 

[rail-britain]

Ironic as this is, I am only interested in the railways of England, Wales, and Scotland, hence rail-britain, and that is how I remember which is Britain and which is United Kingdom