Bring Back Steam Trains

[Lancashire 9F]

I was thinking sen as the A1 loco group built a new steam train from scratch
whay dont we build a new fleet of steam locos and scrap the boring box shaped diesel and electric engines instead

 

[Phoenix]

I was thinking sen as the A1 loco group built a new steam train from scratch
what don't we build a new fleet of steam locos and scrap the boring box shaped diesel and electric engines instead

Surprisingly this has actually been proposed at some point in the last year I forgot the link but basically they looked at an altered version of the steam train.
Basically the idea was to update the concept to make it more effcient and also less messy and burn on coal the is more abundant these days.

But although these days anything can happen I wouldn't bet my money on anyone back such a proposal.

 

[me123]

Nowadays, Steam doesn't really have much of a hope outwith preservation I'm afraid. They're too messy and slow for what the public want: remember that most people don't care if a box turns up to take them to work as long as it does take them to work.

 

[Aureol]

This would be the 5AT Project, a brand new steam locomotive design for the 21st Century based on a BR Standard 5MT chassis.
Its proposed maximum speed is 125mph with a power output of 3500 horsepower, higher than that of the class 55 "Deltic" Diesel-Electric locomotives.
It is to have an axle loading of 20 tons, making it RA6, fairly flexible for operable routes.

I, on the other hand, can't ever see this being built

 

[Max]

Also, coal isn't exactly in plentiful supply anymore, and there's a lot of demand for it in China, pushing up prices massively.

 

[P156KWJ]

coal and motion oil, yeah, quite dear! (Although to be fair, so is stuff like diesel and kerosene ) whilst it'd be quite nostalgic, you have to think about the economic side and so on.

 

[EE Type 3]

I was thinking sen as the A1 loco group built a new steam train from scratch
whay dont we build a new fleet of steam locos and scrap the boring box shaped diesel and electric engines instead

Why oh why are you saying things like that. Steam is fine, if you want to enjoy the scenery. It will never have a place on the main lines of Britain, it will slowly get shoved off the ECML, WCML and GWML and be used on secondary lines. Steam couldn't match what the nations fleet of locomotives and multiple units is doing today.

You saying that makes you sound like a fool, I have to say.

 

[Phoenix]

You saying that makes you sound like a fool, I have to say.

Honestly id say fool was a little harsh.
If people didn't throw out the crackpot idea's once in a while we wouldn't have tornado.
But I see your point and aggree the idea is just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

 

[EE Type 3]

Honestly id say fool was a little harsh.
If people didn't throw out the crackpot idea's once in a while we wouldn't have tornado.
But I see your point and aggree the idea is just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

But the thing is Tornado wasn't impossible. Building a baby deltic wouldn't be impossible. Building a Grange isn't impossible. But replacing hundreds and hundreds of 66s, 90s, 92s, 86s, and the millions of units with steam trains would be impossible. Anyone would be shown the door if they put across that 'idea'.

 

[Phoenix]

But the thing is Tornado wasn't impossible. Building a baby deltic wouldn't be impossible. Building a Grange isn't impossible. But replacing hundreds and hundreds of 66s, 90s, 92s, 86s, and the millions of units with steam trains would be impossible. Anyone would be shown the door if they put across that 'idea'.

Yeah I see your point what I mean is that every once in a while someone has to try a little bit of dreaming just in this case. IDEA =BIN

 

[me123]

They probably wouldn't be shown the door in this day and age; they'd probably commission a study worth £500,000 of tax payer's money to prove that it is unfeasable before rejecting the idea...

 

[EE Type 3]

Yeah I see your point what I mean is that every once in a while someone has to try a little bit of dreaming just in this case. IDEA =BIN

I agree completely. We need someone to just turn around and say 'Lets build a baby deltic' every once in a while. Thing is saying something that you know will never happen, like replacing the nations fleet of locomotives of units, just makes you look like a fool, frankly.

 

[Royston Vasey]

True, much as many resent it, trains are built to be functional and reliable, and increasingly to be fuel efficient and environmentally friendly. Electric and diesel "boxes" do all this better than steam. And how does the shape of a train make it any worse at being a train? Get a grip. And do you realise how many hours it took to get a steam loco ready for service every morning??

Contrary to what was said earlier in this thread, coal is not expensive or scarce - the Chinese may be using loads of coal, for power, fuel and chemical feedstocks but this is because they have immense indiginous reserves. They aren't draining foreign reserves so this is no real threat to international markets.

However coal is dirty, and would require extensive cleanup to meet the environmental standards of today. One (very expensive) brand new steam loco doesn't mean it is feasible on any scale at all. At the end of the day, it just wouldn't be allowed by the legislators. Much better to gasify the coal, strip out the CO2 and burn the remaining mix of gases in turbines to produce electricity. And run trains (and pretty much everything else) on electricity, which can in future be produced by whatever means you wish...

I'm frankly amused at the plans of the 5AT steam loco - clearly drawn by someone else who wants the future to resemble the past... you'd think they'd at least make it a tiny bit different to the locos of the 1940s-50s...

 

[Phoenix]

I agree completely. We need someone to just turn around and say 'Lets build a baby deltic' every once in a while. Thing is saying something that you know will never happen, like replacing the nations fleet of locomotives of units, just makes you look like a fool, frankly.

Good call.

 

[furryfeet]

so what are they going to do when the oil runs out ?

30 years is a blink of an eye in transport planning terms.

one has to start thinking and planning now.

 

[Phoenix]

so what are they going to do when the oil runs out ?

30 years is a blink of an eye in transport planning terms.

one has to start thinking and planning now.

Honestly has to be electric that in turn is using electricity produced by either nuclear or renewable sources.

 

[Royston Vasey]

so what are they going to do when the oil runs out ?

30 years is a blink of an eye in transport planning terms.

one has to start thinking and planning now.

Clean electricity - the ultimate end to pretty much any energy debate, though it will take many decades of progress to get there. Biofuels, hybrids, clean coal, carbon capture etc are stepping stones to this ultimate goal. Oil will not run out as such but over the next few decades it will get scarcer and more expensive and ultimately, in less demand because clean alternatives will be cheaper, either because of market forces or because of incentives.

Absolutely agree though, its a long and probably costly path which has to be tread, and steps need to be taken now.

Now where's that thread on mass electrification.......

 

[Phoenix]

Clean electricity - the ultimate end to pretty much any energy debate, though it will take many decades of progress to get there. Biofuels, hybrids, clean coal, carbon capture etc are stepping stones to this ultimate goal. Oil will not run out as such but over the next few decades it will get scarcer and more expensive and ultimately, in less demand because clean alternatives will be cheaper, either because of market forces or because of incentives.

Absolutely agree though, its a long and probably costly path which has to be tread, and steps need to be taken now.

Now where's that thread on mass electrification.......

It won't run out for long time to come as we had to study this in geology just yesterday.
But eventually it will only be the oil that no one could be bothered to extract because of the difficulty so this will give us a nice amount of time to make the diesel to electric transition just the oil will cost a little too much.

 

[Royston Vasey]

It won't run out for long time to come as we had to study this in geology just yesterday.
But eventually it will only be the oil that no one could be bothered to extract because of the difficulty so this will give us a nice amount of time to make the diesel to electric transition just the oil will cost a little too much.

True, I study this as part of my job. Massive heavier, deeper and "unconventional" reserves (Gulf of Mexico, Canada etc) are still there but cost more to extract and process.

It will all happen in a continuum, it will be market forces which will slowly turn the world against oil, not well-meaning eco sentiment or a chronic lack of the stuff. Oil will remain a vital part of the energy equation for several decades.

Hope this isn't all going off topic mods but think it's a natural progression of the original subject...

 

[Phoenix]

True, I study this as part of my job. Massive heavier, deeper and "unconventional" reserves (Gulf of Mexico, Canada etc) are still there but cost more to extract and process.

It will all happen in a continuum, it will be market forces which will slowly turn the world against oil, not well-meaning eco sentiment or a chronic lack of the stuff. Oil will remain a vital part of the energy equation for several decades.

Hope this isn't all going off topic mods but think it's a natural progression of the original subject...

It is surprising the way it will all turn out with the oil situation.
Personally Im surprised their is any left even at this moment in time but as we know people only change what they do if it will cost more not too so when the costs shoot up the change as I call it will be swiftly put into motion.
I would say this is a natural progression of this post also.

 

[me123]

There should really be enough oil for a long time, provided we are sensible. Renewable energy is the way forward, and by electrifying rail lines as well, we can reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

Even small things like using reusable bags like they sell in Tesco: those foldy-bags really come in handy and I bet if half the population used them, we'd have a small but significant impact on oil.

If we all do a few small things, oil usage is reduced and we have more of it for longer. However, the main issues IMO are electrification of the railways, conversion to renewable energy as much as possible and developing cars which do not run on fossil fuels: I know there are some already, but further developments can bring them into mainstream useage. Then there's planes, but I don't even want to go there.

 

[Phoenix]

There should really be enough oil for a long time, provided we are sensible. Renewable energy is the way forward, and by electrifying rail lines as well, we can reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

Even small things like using reusable bags like they sell in Tesco: those foldy-bags really come in handy and I bet if half the population used them, we'd have a small but significant impact on oil.

If we all do a few small things, oil usage is reduced and we have more of it for longer. However, the main issues IMO are electrification of the railways, conversion to renewable energy as much as possible and developing cars which do not run on fossil fuels: I know there are some already, but further developments can bring them into mainstream useage. Then there's planes, but I don't even want to go there.

Good point.
But the problem is oil usage is like a speeding train (just to stick to topic) it cannot just rapidly slow down otherwise alot of problems such as job losses and severe economic problems arise.
True we can all do our part as it wouldn't hurt to start the change over but honestly they will only back idea's like mass electrification the second it will cost less than backing diesel.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Well it seems to me that we already run quite a lot of steam services on the main lines. Its just that we use electric transmission in the locos and land based water boilers (heated by coal, oil, gas and uranium) and transmit the power by wires.

I guess we do this because its about as efficient as we can get. So steam is still very much alive and well on the rails - albeit indirectly.
Future developments will tend to take advantage of this split betweeen land-based "engines", cable transmission and electric traction.
But there's another way of looking at this.
When most of us talk of steam trains, we tend to assume that it uses both water expansion and coal fire. It doesn't hage to.
Water/steam does provide one of the best power/weight ratios and excellent range of speed - (with no need for mechanical gears!). But it does require the loco to carry a big tank of water. Heavy but cheap). And it has to carry the fuel thast heats the water. And that's the challege!
Why, why, do we assume that any new steam locos would choose coal to heat the water?
We could use diesel, petrol, LPG without much problem.
For other fuels such as wind, uranium and gas, then clearly land based boilers and electric transmission wins.

So what do you say guys? Can we find a place for water-steam boilers on the rails with fuels other than coal? And an easier way to transfer it from the "fuel store" to the "fire" than a man with a shovel!!!!!

 

[Phoenix]

Well it seems to me that we already run quite a lot of steam services on the main lines. Its just that we use electric transmission in the locos and land based water boilers (heated by coal, oil, gas and uranium) and transmit the power by wires.

I guess we do this because its about as efficient as we can get. So steam is still very much alive and well on the rails - albeit indirectly.
Future developments will tend to take advantage of this split betweeen land-based "engines", cable transmission and electric traction.
But there's another way of looking at this.
When most of us talk of steam trains, we tend to assume that it uses both water expansion and coal fire. It doesn't hage to.
Water/steam does provide one of the best power/weight ratios and excellent range of speed - (with no need for mechanical gears!). But it does require the loco to carry a big tank of water. Heavy but cheap). And it has to carry the fuel thast heats the water. And that's the challege!
Why, why, do we assume that any new steam locos would choose coal to heat the water?
We could use diesel, petrol, LPG without much problem.
For other fuels such as wind, uranium and gas, then clearly land based boilers and electric transmission wins.

So what do you say guys? Can we find a place for water-steam boilers on the rails with fuels other than coal? And an easier way to transfer it from the "fuel store" to the "fire" than a man with a shovel!!!!!

I see what you mean.
So basically you think were looking at a new type of traction which is similar in princible to a steam train but dare I say hi-tech??

 

[37427]

I see what you mean.
So basically you think were looking at a new type of traction which is similar in princible to a steam train but dare I say hi-tech??

Don't say that, we don't want steam locos going around with solar panels on them

 

[jopsuk]

I would reckon that if you were to design a truly modern steam loco, it would be turbine based (done before) and possibly with electric traction motors- and look rather like a modern diesel from the outside.

Then, of course, there's truly different ideas- in his early work, Diesel looked at designing an internal combustion engine that would have run on coal dust.

 

[Phoenix]

Don't say that, we don't want steam locos going around with solar panels on them

God actually what am I saying.

 

[robvulpes]

Sounds like you want one of these

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?6,577274

(I'm sure there are better pictures of these locos elsewhere on the net, but I'm supposed to be working at the moment!)

 

[Aureol]

I would reckon that if you were to design a truly modern steam loco, it would be turbine based (done before) and possibly with electric traction motors- and look rather like a modern diesel from the outside.

The "modern diesel" external appearance has already been tried on the Southern, in the form of Bulleid's 'Leader' class...needless to say they were none too popular, not very reliable and the heat inside was just insane.
6202, the Turbomotive from the LMS in 1935, using steam turbines to move the wheels rather than conventional cylinders, was quite a large success and during turbine service clocked up over 300000 miles, being converted in 1952 to a conventional Princess Royal class and gaining the name Princess Anne. And if anyone's interested, the boiler is the only surviving component from the fateful Harrow & Wealdstone crash and lives on in the frames of 46203 Princess Margaret Rose at the Midland Railway Butterley.

So by these theories, another 'Turbomotive' could be built, but my guess is that it will follow the traditional steam lines rather than the intolerable conditions of a modern era bodyshell.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Renewable energy is the way forward, and by electrifying rail lines as well, we can reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.

Hope you didn't really mean that!

I think there's a lot of confusion : electrification still needs the fuel to turn the generators. Most UK electricity comes from fossil fuels. So its no "greener". The real benefit is that electrification allows the heavy fuel and generators to be placed on the ground instead of being added to the trains' weight.
The other confusion is to assume that steam must use coal (my post above) : most electric generation relies on the expansion of steam to provide the power the generators (irrespectve of whether the heat comes from coal, oil, gas or uranium). When we talk of steam locos there's no reason to assume they would be coal powered - that's just our heritage.

another 'Turbomotive' could be built, but my guess is that it will follow the traditional steam lines rather than the intolerable conditions of a modern era bodyshell.

I assume that there may be good steam designs still to be developed - just that they won't use coal, perhaps fossil fuels and safety concerns prob mitigate against nuclear. Hydrogen-based fuel cells may be more realisitic