Bring back british rail!

[Zoe]

Yes but that is not such a difficult thing, many private organisations operate separate Divisions under a named banner. It is actually quite easy to achieve this under one Company with vertical integration.

So why couldn't this have done with BR? Two years before privatization was the "Organizing for Quality" inititiative which resulted in a vertically integrated railway with the sectors owning infrastrucutre. It would have been relatively easy to separate the accounting and have Intercity(infrastructure) charge Inercity(operations) and Network SouthEast(operations) for running trains on the GWML.

 

[lookingforit35]

Your belief for example that BA shuttle represented the pinnacle of customer service will be something of a surprise to most people who have used them, and indeed BA who divested itself of them under the BA Connect name some years back.

Just a shame you do not marshall a proper post supported by facts and not your own distorted prejudices.

Without wishing to cause any offence, you are incorrect here. BA did indeed sell a huge number of BA Connect regional routes to FlyBe (although they still maintain a stake of c10% in FlyBe). But they have always flown Manchester to London Heathrow and Gatwick using their mainline BA fleets.

And I enjoy the new BA service from London City to Glasgow and Edinburgh which is convenient and well priced - well maybe not the Glasgow route now BMI have withdrawn from that service!

 

[Old Timer]

So why couldn't this have done with BR? Two years before privatization was the "Organizing for Quality" inititiative which resulted in a vertically integrated railway with each sector owning infrastrucutre. It would have been relatively easy to separate the accounting and have Intercity(infrastructure) charge Inercity(operations) and Network SouthEast(operations) for running trains on the GWML.

Yes it could easily have been done, however Major decided to go for Privatisation as a means of having something to hang his hat on when leaving power. As with everything he touched it turned to ****. In fairness he wanted to go to vertical privatisation model however the Treasury and the Civil Service wanted to model we now have and is always the way, they got what they wanted.

Had Major been a really astute PM he would have shelved it and let Labour take the **** for it. I hold him as well as Bliar and Brown responsible for the state that the Country and the Railway Industry is now in.

 

[phil8715]

No never have signed them
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So why not have the interior layout of the mk3 in a 390. Best of both worlds. But no. Todays thing is just to pack em in

Do you think if the railways were still stated owned, would BR have chosen the pendolino? I think not!

I think they would have got the government to either build a fleet of APT's or build some more 225's for the WCML.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Old Timer]

Without wishing to cause any offence, you are incorrect here. BA did indeed sell a huge number of BA Connect regional routes to FlyBe (although they still maintain a stake of c10% in FlyBe). But they have always flown Manchester to London Heathrow and Gatwick using their mainline BA fleets.

And I enjoy the new BA service from London City to Glasgow and Edinburgh which is convenient and well priced - well maybe not the Glasgow route now BMI have withdrawn from that service!

It was the regional feeder routes I was referring to. Out of interest how did you find their (BA) cabin crew attitude/service on the regional services ?

 

[Hydro]

Do you think if the railways were still stated owned, would BR have chosen the pendolino? I think not!

I think they would have got the government to either build a fleet of APT's or build some more 225's for the WCML.

BR's traction plans for the WCML upgrade, had it received the money for it, was for Mark 5 stock and Class 93 hauled stock with appropriate DVT's under the "Intercity 250" banner.

 

[WestCoast]

Without wishing to cause any offence, you are incorrect here. BA did indeed sell a huge number of BA Connect regional routes to FlyBe (although they still maintain a stake of c10% in FlyBe). But they have always flown Manchester to London Heathrow and Gatwick using their mainline BA fleets.

Flybe bought the BA Connect assets, you don't need to buy routes in Europe since EU/EEA Open Skies in the '90s. BA were terribly inefficient at regional routes, Flybe have managed to make almost all of them work under a lower cost structure.

 

[lookingforit35]

It was the regional feeder routes I was referring to. Out of interest how did you find their (BA) cabin crew attitude/service on the regional services ?

I only flew regularly out of LHR and LGW, and then latterly LCY.

Stretching the old memory muscle I once flew BA from Manchester to Edinburgh on a very early morning flight, once from Glasgow to Manchester, and once from Glasgow to Southampton. And crikey I recall a tiny BA branded plane from Newcastle to Birmingham (prior to sale to Eastern I believe). But in fairness I wont claim that occassional use of BA Connect qualifies me to pass comment and in reality I simply cant recall anything of note other than a large cabin crew lady on the tiny Birmingham plane!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Flybe bought the BA Connect assets, you don't need to buy routes in Europe since EU/EEA Open Skies in the '90s. BA were terribly inefficient at regional routes, Flybe have managed to make almost all of them work under a lower cost structure.

Sorry - my cack use of terminology! I stand corrected.

Blimey, just remembered using BA Citiflyer from LGW to NCL using an ATR. Mind you, I actually preferred the BA 737s when they came as the North Terminal at LGW was so much better as were the cooked breakfasts. But nothing could beat the European BAC 1-11 that was substituted on one occassion to cover - must've been over 30 years old. I recall looking at it and thinking "Pity whoever is on that old crate"!

 

[phil8715]

The Pendo would be a good train if the interiors were completely redesigned. I've never experienced such a hotch potch of jamming seats and tables into a coach interior than on a Pendolino. The windows don't particlarly bother me (except when I'm unlucky enough to get a wonderful pillar view), but the layout is pretty poor.

There's nothing worse than sitting in standard class in the 1st airline seat just through the vestibule on a pendolino and there's no bloody window. I really wanted to pay £200 to look a pillar for 2hours.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[CosherB]

Your belief for example that BA shuttle represented the pinnacle of customer service will be something of a surprise to most people who have used them, and indeed BA who divested itself of them under the BA Connect name some years back.

OT, you seem determined to resort to personal attacks. Why is that? Are you deeply insecure?

I didn't claim BA Shuttle 'represented the pinnacle of customer service', I said it was streets ahead of BR inter city. And if BA Connect have taken over the Man - LHR Shuttles maybe I'd better tell my BA mates that are still flying the BA A320s and A319s on that route!

Just a shame you do not marshall a proper post supported by facts and not your own distorted prejudices.

Well, OT, it seems it's not me that needs to do that, doesn't it?

 

[WestCoast]

Sorry - my cack use of terminology! I stand corrected.

Blimey, just remembered using BA Citiflyer from LGW to NCL using an ATR. Mind you, I actually preferred the BA 737s when they came as the North Terminal at LGW was so much better as were the cooked breakfasts. But nothing could beat the European BAC 1-11 that was substituted on one occassion to cover - must've been over 30 years old. I recall looking at it and thinking "Pity whoever is on that old crate"!

I used to fly Manchester to Hannover quite a few times a year on BA Connect Embraer 145s (1 and 2 seating) and I remember the crew being very pleasant. Although, BA went down the 'no frills' lane on these routes with chargeable drinks and snacks. Considering the routes were aimed at business travellers, I wasn't sure that was the right way to go! Flybe still fly most of the ex-BA Connect/CitiExpress routes out of Manchester on slightly larger Bombardier Q400s and Embraer 195s.

 

[CosherB]

One of the few lucid posts on here, I think.

Translation: A post from another BR old timer who, like me, remembers the cosy good old pre-privatisation days!

OT, you are soooo predictable...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Translation: A post from another BR old timer who, like me, remembers the cosy good old pre-privatisation days!

OT, you are soooo predictable...

CS, you seem determined to resort to personal attacks. Why is that? Are you deeply insecure?

Think I've heard that before...

 

[Old Timer]

OT, you seem determined to resort to personal attacks. Why is that? Are you deeply insecure?

Not quite sure how commenting on BA can be deemed to be a personal attack, as you yourself made the comparison, but as I pointed out BA had, and to a degree still does have a bad reputation amongst passengers, many of whom left BA in droves for other airlines during the period you extoll as one when "the staff were highly professional in every respect".

BA is hardly the paragon of service as you would like us to believe, and it is only since Willie Walsh arrived on the scene that inroads have been made into customer service. It is going to take a long time though for memories of being treated like pooh in business class by bored, disinterested CC whose only desire appeared to be to get back to the galley, and treated any request with a barely concealed heavy sigh, to disappear.

I would offer the view that one of the few areas where BA does excel is that of safety and maintenance. One you can pass on to the Nigels if you wish

Getting back to the Railway, I would also make the point that in many cases the Virgin staff are actually better than many EU carriers, have you ever flown SAS, or Brussels Air for example where the service I recently received was pretty awful, even in business class - for what that is worth these days ! Glad I was not paying !

Many of the Virgin staff you praise so highly would actually be former Inter City West Coast staff simply wearing a different uniform.

As someone who has moved 180 degrees in view regarding a return to the former BR setup, I can see that one or two points you make but as I said earlier, you damage this by your blanket reference to all ex BR staff in very negative terms.

In my career I have met many, many very committed BR people, and very very few bad ones, but then of course my view will not count will it ?

 

[CosherB]

Not quite sure how commenting on BA can be deemed to be a personal attack,

As I think you know, that wasn't what I was refering to. It was: "That perfectly describes pretty much all of your posts so far to be honest, which have concentrated on invective rather than any sort of rational and logical thought".

BA is hardly the paragon of service as you would like us to believe, and it is only since Willie Walsh arrived on the scene that inroads have been made into customer service. It is going to take a long time though for memories of being treated like pooh in business class by bored, disinterested CC whose only desire appeared to be to get back to the galley, and treated any request with a barely concealed heavy sigh, to disappear.

I presume you mean 'uninterested'; they can hardly be 'disinterested' if they work for the airline. And as I said before, I only said they were better than BR Iter City on board staff, not that they were 'paragons of service'.

Many of the Virgin staff you praise so highly would actually be former Inter City West Coast staff simply wearing a different uniform.

...And Virgin re-trained!

As someone who has moved 180 degrees in view regarding a return to the former BR setup, I can see that one or two points you make but as I said earlier, you damage this by your blanket reference to all ex BR staff in very negative terms.

In my career I have met many, many very committed BR people, and very very few bad ones, but then of course my view will not count will it ?

All ex-BR staff? I don't think so - I only met some! It was not so much the individuals as the 'culture', which was, from the customers' point of view, inward-looking and self serving.

It took the influence of the TOCs to change that - a process which is continuing.

 

[Trog]

Why the desire from people to return the Wheel and the Rail to common ownership?

Because experience tells us it works.


As if both trains and track belong to the same company it can take a logical view on what expenditure on track and level of possessions, gives the most efficient railway overall.


Separated the track authority only care about the cost to them of any disruption, and the train companies want to run trains 24/7 regardless of what happens to maintenance costs. You also end up with two teams of people whose only function is to shift blame onto the other party, and duplicate organisations right through the company structures each man marking the other side to protect their own companies interest.



BR for all its many faults was one of the most financially efficient railways in the world. Mainly because it had a relatively light weight management structure, over a lowly paid workforce who were driven (at least at the week-end while on overtime) by their internal teamwork to move mountains, almost regardless of shortages of materials and equipment to ensure that their bit of railway would be ready come Monday morning.

Find one of the remaining ex BR P-Way men, who held more than a bottom level job under BR, and for almost any tool he will be able to tell you what other tool you can use when the proper one is not available. Let him walk round your section and from habbit he will memorise where any spare track components are and the contents of your store room, just in case he needs them tomorrow. Because that was the way of life (not job) that he was brought up to. Any materials that were not screwed down were fair game, and for the rest we had screwdrivers.

 

[Old Timer]

It took the influence of the TOCs to change that - a process which is continuing.

I rather think you would be better off talking to Yorkie for instance or one of the many others on here who feel that customer service from the TOCs is absolutely appalling.

Hopefully one of these chaps will read this and give you the sort of examples I do not feel able to. Maybe then you will find that the so called better customer service by TOCs is actually more a figure of your own belief than of the actualite ?


Or you could read this topic http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=920154#post920154

 

[Greeny]

I wouldn’t waste your time OT. Frank debate on a forum like this is a good thing, but there seems to be an element who considers that their opinion is the only sensible or worthwhile one being expressed, and who respond with either attacks on other posters, or by trying to confuse the issue by introducing things which were not said to start with. It is an unfortunate fact that some people detest BR and the people involved in it, or those defending it. People like you know what you are talking about from your own personal experience and knowledge and no amount of insults, dirt throwing and attacks can change that. So personally, I’d let them get on with it. The only people impressed by such arguments are those who don’t know any different.

G.

 

[WestCoast]

Getting back to the Railway, I would also make the point that in many cases the Virgin staff are actually better than many EU carriers, have you ever flown SAS, or Brussels Air for example where the service I recently received was pretty awful, even in business class - for what that is worth these days ! Glad I was not paying !

Experiences can differ. I have found Brussels Airlines staff to be lovely, and one of the top airline reviewers on another site has a very positive opinion.

 

[snail]

Bliar and Brown

If you are after credibility in your posts don't try clever anagrams. It doesn't work. :roll:

 

[WestCoast]

I rather think you would be better off talking to Yorkie for instance or one of the many others on here who feel that customer service from the TOCs is absolutely appalling.

It depends OT, your standards seem to be very high. I would say I have experienced a mixture of standards under the present system, as I would expect.

Captain does have a point with a 'customer focused approach' from the TOCs, but what they say in their promotional material and what they actually deliver are two very different things!

 

[Old Timer]

It depends OT, your standards seem to be very high. I would say I have experienced a mixture of standards under the present system, as I would expect.

Captain does have a point with a 'customer focused approach' from the TOCs, but what they say in their promotional material and what they actually deliver are two very different things!

As far as my personal work delivery is concerned then I am absolutely determined to provide a high quality service, and the small team I have who regularly work with me share and work with that ethos. It is not the same for all I fully agree but I and my guys who are pretty much all ex BR long service chaps have our personal ethos and pride.

With regards to TOCs I dont travel much with them to be honest, and generally tickets are bought for me or by me over the Internet a TOD. Occasionally I go to my local booking office which more and more however is unmanned even during the peaks.

I am not entirely sure what people who go on about "customer service" want or expect it to be, to be frank. Most of the time it seems to resolve around customer service only being "good" when a TOC bends and disregards the rules for someone who is deliberately travelling outside them, otherwise the customer service is appalling/disgraceful, or some other similar emotive comment.

Customer service, at least to many on here, revolves around giving them what they want even though that is outside of the terms or conditions that have been established, or is unreasonable to the average person.

I simply get on the train and aim to get to where I am going within a reasonable time. Simple good manners and courtesy is all I seek from on-board staff, and my experience there is that like meets with like.

I would not say that the UK TOCS excel in comparison with many other Countries but then neither are they at the bottom of the league.

 

[CosherB]

I used to use Brussels Airline from Manchester quite a lot for work and they were OK. Mind you, flying has got a heck of a lot cheaper since the mid 90s, so cabin service is not what it was on any short haul flight.

The days of 'business class breakfasts', including a small bottle of Champagne, on the morning BA flight Man to Copenhagen are long gone!

Regarding the TOCs and customer service, they are long way from getting this right all the time. Some Virgin 'revenue enforcement' staff at Euston can be pretty officious, though the on-board staff I meet on Virgin, ATW, LM, Northern, TPE and others are usually most courteous these days.

As for those BR inter city 1st class stewards, some were OK but many were (being kind) 'amateur', and some (around 25% would be my guess) seemed to resent having to serve their passengers (ranging from openly surly to having absolutely no service ethic). After Virgin took over, one could see how their airline cabin experience had been brought to bear; the improvement was very noticable.

 

[43021HST]

Going back to the BR wonder years debate, BR never really had a chance get the network to the clean and well maintained standards we see today due to it existing at a time that was hostile to railways.
To put the BR years in perpective.

1950s: The railways were still recovering from the war
1960s: The onslaught of the motorcar killed off a lot of railway traffic
1970s: The railways were still being majorly affected by cars.
1980s: Thatchers penny pinching from the railways and putting the money into failed projects like the APT.
Early 1990s: Things were beginning to pick up for the railways as we soon realised that the motorcar wasnt quite such a good idea. NSE and intercity were profit making.

In this day and age we're not so reliant on cars now due to chronic congestion and more aware that the railways are a more environmentally friendly way to get around. I reckon if BR still existed the present day would be its heyday.

Privatisation came about at a time when the railways we're beggining to pick up; I dont think that the recent upturn has been because of privatisation, just mere coincidence because of social factors.

My point is that this second wave of rail travel isnt because of privatisation, but down to social and environmental factors.

As a side note I was born 6 months after privatisation, all the above is speaking from my Dads experiences.

 

[150222]

IMO privatisation was a huge mistake. Granted I am too young to remember BR but surely the bulk of the investment needed could have been sourced from private investers and shareholders. The BR model of having a big pool of trains for an entire sector and being able to borrow off other sectors if nessersary was far better than today's system. Now one TOC has a pool of trains and have to pay to hire any more. (If the hiring TOC have enough themselves that is).

 

[Old Timer]

1980s: Thatchers penny pinching from the railways and putting the money into failed projects like the APT..

Ye gods !

Not THIS urban myth again :roll:

Klambert this has been debunked so many times on here in so many posts that I can only believe that you are trolling.

If you are after credibility in your posts don't try clever anagrams. It doesn't work. :roll:

You might want to lighten up a bit, after all it is still between Christmas and the New Year.

Bliar is a recognised nickname for Blair and has been used for years. For your information it comes from Tony B Liar, something he excelled at.

If that affects my "credibility" then fine but remember that my posts come from experience in the Industry not from sitting on the end of a platform.

 

[313103]

I do not wish to start a flame war, i would like to know what you Guys and Girls expect from TOCs and their staff with regards 'CUSTOMER SERVICE'. Also are their different levels ie would you expect the same treatment in standard as in First class?

My personal opinion is that levels are far better then they were under BR (and that is from a die in the wool BR man) yet by reading this and others within this site you always see complaints about our favorite group of staff 'the Guard', then there is the Revenue Team, and station staff. That then tells me that 'Customer Service' in the rail industry is very poor.

What are peoples 'Customer Service' expectations anyway?

For me 'Customer Service' is someone being polite. If you ask me a question i will do my best to find out for you. However if i cant find out has that meant that i have failed to deliver good customer service, or customer service at all?

I will actually try this out this weekend as i will be going to the King Alfred running day in Winchester on Sunday and the Dean Forest Railway on Monday. I would really like to know your opinions.

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, some people seem to think that 'customer service' means - "I want this and I want it now!" and "I am always right and I wont take no for an answer". This isn't anyone on this forum, but I think we all know the type of people who are saying these things!

This is true not on only the railways, but on all forms of transport, and in the leisure industry.

 

[CosherB]

For me 'Customer Service' is someone being polite. If you ask me a question i will do my best to find out for you. However if i cant find out has that meant that i have failed to deliver good customer service, or customer service at all?
.

I think you are spot on. Polite is what it's about. And providing information it is reasonable to expect that member of staff to provide (eg, for a guard, time train expected to arrive at a particular station. A bonus, especially if the train is late running, would be next connections at scheduled stops).

For 1st class stewards, it's about friendly but unobtrusive service, as in a good restaurant.

And, as I've said, mostly on today's railway, this is what I experience. It wasn't always so in BR days!

 

[Greenback]

I do not wish to start a flame war, i would like to know what you Guys and Girls expect from TOCs and their staff with regards 'CUSTOMER SERVICE'. Also are their different levels ie would you expect the same treatment in standard as in First class?

My personal opinion is that levels are far better then they were under BR (and that is from a die in the wool BR man) yet by reading this and others within this site you always see complaints about our favorite group of staff 'the Guard', then there is the Revenue Team, and station staff. That then tells me that 'Customer Service' in the rail industry is very poor.

What are peoples 'Customer Service' expectations anyway?

For me 'Customer Service' is someone being polite. If you ask me a question i will do my best to find out for you. However if i cant find out has that meant that i have failed to deliver good customer service, or customer service at all?

I will actually try this out this weekend as i will be going to the King Alfred running day in Winchester on Sunday and the Dean Forest Railway on Monday. I would really like to know your opinions.

For what it is worth, customer service is a wide brush and means different things to different folks.

For me personally, it is largely a company or organisation delivering what they promise, when they promise, and putting things right when they go wrong. A suitable example would be a ticket office being open as advertised, or on train catering being available when it should be.

As for individuals, I would define good service as being polite, professional and presentable, although the latter means as appropriate to their role. It's here that things can get a bit subjective, as one person's idea of politeness might not correspond to someone else's!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, some people seem to think that 'customer service' means - "I want this and I want it now!" and "I am always right and I wont take no for an answer". This isn't anyone on this forum, but I think we all know the type of people who are saying these things!

This is true not on only the railways, but on all forms of transport, and in the leisure industry.

I think you are right, and it is not only the leisure and transport industries either.