Brighton's BML2

[ushawk]

I think electrifying the current Uckfield - Oxted line should be more of a priority than extending it to Lewes. Is there demand for Uckfield line stations to Lewes ? Especially with a good bus link running from Eridge, Crowborough and Uckfield to Lewes via Isfield and on to Brighton.

And sticking a level crossing on Uckfield High St would cause a lot of congestion in the surrounding areas.

 

[yorksrob]

I think electrifying the current Uckfield - Oxted line should be more of a priority than extending it to Lewes. Is there demand for Uckfield line stations to Lewes ? Especially with a good bus link running from Eridge, Crowborough and Uckfield to Lewes via Isfield and on to Brighton.

And sticking a level crossing on Uckfield High St would cause a lot of congestion in the surrounding areas.

I don't know how true it is, but the re-opening campaigners mention that there were more travellers South from Uckfield than North before the closure. You only have to look at the line now. A commuter stub robbed of much of it's usefulness by way of not being connected to the South Coast. I suspect that a link to the South Coast would greatly help not only to improve loadings on the existing section overall, but also off-peak in particular.

 

[OxtedL]

Unfortunately, while you complain about my thinking, it is quite simply true that most people would use cars regardless, negating the benefits. Obviously not everyone has access to cars all the time, but the thing is enough people have access to cars for enough of the time for it not to be worth it by the current benefit-cost analysis methods. Unfortunately in this day and age you can rarely justify new things just because they are a public service. The exception being in the name of "regeneration". Which this area doesn't particularly need at the moment.

I agree that electrification should be more of a priority.

 

[yorksrob]

The flaws of the cost benefit analysis used for railway projects have been exposed elsewhere by far better people than me (although it does rather illustrate my point about how such thinking permeates this country's establishment). The fact remains that by this logic, existing railways and stations in some of the wealthier areas of the South should be disused and empty throughout most of the day (think Malling, Borough Green, Staplehurst, Paddock Wood Tunbridge Wells etc) yet this is clearly not the case.

 

[els]

See, I'm not sure that's a good idea without a plan... And the only place you would really want to send Uckfields is Brighton. Which would be a massive faff with reversing.

I'm sure they could do it, but I'm not sure it would be that beneficial... Would be nice though, don't get me wrong.

But it could still be useful in meaning east coastway trains from london run fast via Uckfield instead of Haywards Heath, freeing up space on the BML for Brighton services.

With electrification and increased line speed, I wonder how long East Croydon to Lewes via Uckfield would take non-stop?

 

[Greenback]

Unfortunately, while you complain about my thinking, it is quite simply true that most people would use cars regardless, negating the benefits. Obviously not everyone has access to cars all the time, but the thing is enough people have access to cars for enough of the time for it not to be worth it by the current benefit-cost analysis methods. Unfortunately in this day and age you can rarely justify new things just because they are a public service. The exception being in the name of "regeneration". Which this area doesn't particularly need at the moment.

I agree that electrification should be more of a priority.

I am not so certian that cars will enjoy such popularity in the future, with petrol prices continuing to rise and alternative power sources still very costly.

 

[OxtedL]

Alas, you are almost certainly correct. However, I still don't think that the line will re-open anytime soon, as the government isn't able to see this yet.

Which I suppose is probably just about fair, given it's supposedly not their money to throw away on whatever they want.

 

[Greenback]

I do find it disappointing that we seem unable to recognise that car travel as we know it will not be sustainable forever. we are still planning and building things for the car society wen we should be planning for lifestyle changes that will occur when petrol becomes too expensive for most people to buy in the quantities they do today.

 

[ushawk]

But it could still be useful in meaning east coastway trains from london run fast via Uckfield instead of Haywards Heath, freeing up space on the BML for Brighton services.

With electrification and increased line speed, I wonder how long East Croydon to Lewes via Uckfield would take non-stop?

I wonder how quick it would be from Eastbourne, especially with a reversal, probably wouldnt be much difference from the current 1hr 30min journey time, would have to be all stations too if the route isnt double tracked, would be 2hourly service to intermediate stations otherwise.

 

[PR102]

I think RIngmer would still work, the land is fairly flat, but what of the old formation into Lewes? The old way over the Phoenix is a definite no-way, and I could see the original alignment north on the line to Cooksbridge. Surely a restoration to this point would also cost lots???

Point taken reastbourne. Settled then: the new mainline should turn south to Eastbourne once it leaves Uckfiled, with a connection to Lewes on the original formation, or just to Ringmer (or at least terminating near that old pub on the original Ringmer-Uckfield road)
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Alas, you are almost certainly correct. However, I still don't think that the line will re-open anytime soon, as the government isn't able to see this yet.

Which I suppose is probably just about fair, given it's supposedly not their money to throw away on whatever they want.

Well, the Welsh assembly and Scottish borough's seem to 'see it' just fine! Look at all the South Wales re-openings for example!

 

[ushawk]

Ringmer is within 10-15 minutes of Lewes (again with good bus links), i dont think there is sufficient demand for a rail service to there, especially to Lewes (could do with better links to Uckfield though).

IF, and thats a big if, it happened, it would require a lot of work from Ringmer to Lewes because of the geography of the area, ill do a quick map of the route it could take, chances are a tunnel will have to be done too.

 

[ushawk]

Below is how i believe it could go (not exactly of course, but along the lines), it would require a tunnel and connecting at Southerham (before Seaford) could also add a spur towards Eastbourne. New stations would be Isfield and Ringmer.

 

[OxtedL]

Any tunnels would add hugely to the cost, making it incredibly unlikely.

I'm currently searching for the Network Rail speculative document thingy...

The main problem I see with the whole BML2 scheme etc is that to anyone not directly involved, it looks incredibly naive. The only politicians supporting it appear to be doing so for political gain (that is, mainly Lib Dems, and we know what they know about power ), and no other reason. It's actually quite depressing.

Read some of the things on here, and you may get an inkling of the despair I feel. Or maybe not.

One of the things I find disturbing is this geographically highly inaccurate map, implying that the routes are all parallel. In fact, because it goes out to Eridge, the Uckfield route is much longer than the Three Bridges route...

 

[bangor-toad]

The genesis of the BML2 proposal is actually quite obvious. The original Wealdenline proposal of re-opening Uckfield - Lewes has a business case that more or less justifies reopening. (There is fair bit of traffic to and from Uckfield & Crowborough heading south...)

The problem is that politically short reopenings in the South Easy just aren't interesting. There is/was a view that if the locals want it so much they should pay for it.

So, to make it more politically attractive the benefits to the wider region have been proposed. This is where the BML2 idea seems to have come from.


Unfortunatley the way that BML2 has been prepared is to lump it in with major efforts in London - most, if not all, have been superceeded by the East London Line developments or require some fancy, untested, engineering. (Double deck train/tram track...?)

If the Uckfield - Lewes section is to re-open it needs to be put into the context of the wider region but with a plan that is a ) achievable and b ) focused.
I don't think that the BML2 manages either.

Once there is a more sensible plan around, it is possible to get wider buy-in. To be fair to the LibDem MP for Lewes, he has been a supporter of the re-opening for years so it's not just opportunism on his part.

(PR102, I don't think you'll get your route into Ringmer. The costs of diverting off the existing trackbed are going to be high and the cost of a tunnel under Cliffe Hill would push any project business case into massively negative territory...)

Cheers,
Jason

 

[OxtedL]

Found the official study: http://www.eastsussex.gov.uk/NR/rdo.../lewes_uckfield_network_rail_final_report.pdf
The BCR is a good way below 1.0.

The locals then decided that since the study didn't meet what they wanted, it had to be flawed. (Which of course it would have been, but no more than any other study...). See here: http://www.wealdenline.co.uk/the-news/85-10-september-rail-analyses-lewes-uckfield-study.html

Given as it's only the Lib Dems who support it (OK, some Labour figures as well, but not enough, and Labour wouldn't support the scheme anyway), and as a nation we no longer listen to them, it's not going to happen. End of.

 

[els]

Maybe a better and more realistic route for BML2 would be to upgrade the Horsham-Dorking-London line, and with a (very) short chord connecting Angmering to Arundel.

Then West Coastway trains to Victoria which currently run via Hove could instead begin at Worthing, head west for a short while, then largely follow the A24 route to london, and avoid East Croydon altogether. If paths into Victoria are a problem, they could veer off via Tulse Hill onto the thameslink route, or use the Waterloo platforms (wishful).

 

[PR102]

Thanks for the feedback guys, just one small thing: I would only 'go to Ringmer' or nearby if the link to Lewes wasn't possible. But, as you point out the road link between the two is good enough to counter any arguments.

The Eastbourne link I would have started back off the old LBSCR works that were mentioned in a previous post, near Uckfield. Sod Lewes!

Fine, then I guess the only solution for now is to become a major shareholder in, and invest my life savings in, supporting and developing the Lavender line, so that they eventually reach the original site into Uckfield, and get as far south of isfield as reasonably posssible! If we can;t get our dumbass governement(s) to take action...then someone should lol.

I'll get saving...I work in Kuwait so I should be able to muster up £150mill by the time I'm forty lol...
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Anyone here think that the old line from Shoreham our to Steyning and byond might be viable for re-opening??

 

[ushawk]

Maybe a better and more realistic route for BML2 would be to upgrade the Horsham-Dorking-London line, and with a (very) short chord connecting Angmering to Arundel.

Then West Coastway trains to Victoria which currently run via Hove could instead begin at Worthing, head west for a short while, then largely follow the A24 route to london, and avoid East Croydon altogether. If paths into Victoria are a problem, they could veer off via Tulse Hill onto the thameslink route, or use the Waterloo platforms (wishful).

I 100% agree with your first idea. With the second, id keep them how they are as otherwise 2 extra paths into Victoria will be needed, rather than attaching them to East Coastway trains at HHE, that and trains will remain at either 8/12 coaches, rather than a possible 4 coaches, which will be very crowded.

 

[OxtedL]

The line through Epsom and Leatherhead is very busy at the current time (yes, it's me, the voice of doom temporary cover - due to maternity leave - again). But otherwise, the Arundel Chord (correct name?) feels like a no-brainer.

As to extending the Lavender Line...well, East Sussex County Council are less than eager to allow it to expand, due to a combination of "prejudicing any future re-opening" scheme and being likely to cost the council money in some way.

Yes, you did just read that. East Sussex and some other local authorities have zero interest in rail schemes. Another reason BML2 won't happen...

 

[ushawk]

Yes, you did just read that. East Sussex and some other local authorities have zero interest in rail schemes. Another reason BML2 won't happen...

Well, after reading recently that they want to cut local bus services to rural areas, i hardly think people affected will be happy with extending a small heritage railway.

 

[yorksrob]

The locals then decided that since the study didn't meet what they wanted, it had to be flawed. (Which of course it would have been, but no more than any other study...). See here: http://www.wealdenline.co.uk/the-news/85-10-september-rail-analyses-lewes-uckfield-study.html

I think that if it is the case that the type of analysis used would have stifled schemes which have been proven to be successful elsewhere (and this would need some further clarification) then I think that "the locals" have a very good point, regardless of whether the report says what they want or not.

 

[OxtedL]

Just how terrible current techniques used in studies are is a whole new thread...

Another complaint I have is that they like trying to compare the "missing link" to other re-openings. It cannot even begin to be compared to Welsh schemes like Ebbw Vale, which were opened in a completely different mindset. They also think they should have priority over East-West Rail re-openings, despite these having national benefits, and the Uckfield-Lewes having only local ones.

The only scheme it could really be compared to is Airdrie-Bathgate, and I still don't think it is comparable. For a start, there is no real equivalent of the M8 corridor to begin with, rail having a huge market share already. Brighton is not big enough for it to be considered as viable in terms of simply providing infrastructure between two cities, so what then?

Sorry, but the Wealden Line and BML2 campaigners really annoy me...

I agree re the buses... but if my experience of buses in this region is anything to go by, bus loadings are terrible. Not that it's any excuse to scrap a social service, but...

 

[yorksrob]

Just how terrible current techniques used in studies are is a whole new thread......

Possibly, but you have to admit, it’s quite a relevant topic in a re-opening debate.

Another complaint I have is that they like trying to compare the "missing link" to other re-openings. It cannot even begin to be compared to Welsh schemes like Ebbw Vale, which were opened in a completely different mindset. They also think they should have priority over East-West Rail re-openings, despite these having national benefits, and the Uckfield-Lewes having only local ones

I thought we were having a debate about the social and economic benefits of re-opening a railway. I fail to see how the “mindset” of those who have managed to re-open other routes has any relevance whatsoever to any discussion of the costs and benefits of any re-opening, short of illustrating how the mindsets of those who have consistently blacked such schemes need to be changed.

If you’re talking about the mindset of the new austerity Britain versus the boom years, well the Wealden campaign has been trying to re-open the line for forty years, some of them even tried to stop it closing. Why was nothing done before the bust, when the County council has been content to bury endless sums of money in road schemes and by-passes.

If you’re really unhappy with comparing the scheme with other re-openings, why not look at other similar local routes that are already open, such as Ashford - Hastings, Ashford - Ramsgate, Tonbridge - Redhill, Portsmouth - Southampton and Eastleigh etc. These are all routes in areas of high car ownership and are not direct London commuter routes, yet which still play a vital role in their communities. I make this point in all of these discussions, yet it always seems to be conveniently ignored by the nay-sayers.

They also think they should have priority over East-West Rail re-openings, despite these having national benefits, and the Uckfield-Lewes having only local ones

I think that the idea that a Government department will one day think “oh, we were going to build this East-West link, but because the Wealden campaigners have put up such a good argument we’ve decided to spend that money on Uckfield - Lewes instead” is highly unlikely. What the Wealden and the East-West campaigners want is a political change by Governments to support decent schemes like both of these which have the potential to attract passengers and improve connectivity within their areas. Then perhaps they will be able to tackle obstinate county Councils, for example, more readily.

The only scheme it could really be compared to is Airdrie-Bathgate, and I still don't think it is comparable. For a start, there is no real equivalent of the M8 corridor to begin with, rail having a huge market share already. Brighton is not big enough for it to be considered as viable in terms of simply providing infrastructure between two cities, so what then?

If you look at the Glasgow-Edinburgh, it already has two decent rail links whereas Brighton (although not a Glasgow or an Edinburgh admittedly, is still one of the largest Cities in the South East outside London) only has one direct route to London, which is double track for a fair distance, I would say that Wealden is even more important strategically on top of local benefits, which would be many. Whilst rail does indeed already have a high market share within the Brighton area, I suspect it will be unusually low between the larger towns of the Weald, due mainly to the piecemeal nature of the network.

Sorry, but the Wealden Line and BML2 campaigners really annoy me...

Frankly they’ve done well to keep it on the agenda for so long.

I agree re the buses... but if my experience of buses in this region is anything to go by, bus loadings are terrible. Not that it's any excuse to scrap a social service, but...

Says more about the slow and ponderous nature of bus transport than anything. Whilst fine for short journeys, most people regard buses as too slow and uncomfortable for middle distance inter-urban journeys.

 

[PR102]

Can you explain what you mean by 'different mindset' re Ebbw Vale etc.?

I travel around East Sussex a lot, and have done for years. If there were better rail links up and down the county, I would use them!

 

[OxtedL]

Sorry, yes "mindset" was completely the wrong term to use. I was essentially trying to sum up the concept of regeneration in South Wales, but in an ill thought out way.

Why was nothing done before the bust, when the County council has been content to bury endless sums of money in road schemes and by-passes.

Agreed, the council have no interest in rail. Perhaps a look at their votership...

If you’re really unhappy with comparing the scheme with other re-openings, why not look at other similar local routes that are already open, such as Ashford - Hastings, Ashford - Ramsgate, Tonbridge - Redhill, Portsmouth - Southampton and Eastleigh etc. These are all routes in areas of high car ownership and are not direct London commuter routes, yet which still play a vital role in their communities. I make this point in all of these discussions, yet it always seems to be conveniently ignored by the nay-sayers.

I'm happy to look at these. The only one I have any real experience of is Redhill-Tonbridge. The loading on this are rubbish.

Fares in the South East are generally far too high for local trips, and suppress the usage of services. Oxted to Hurst Green is a classic. Less than a mile, £2.30 for an off peak return. Think where that would take you in the north. I'm sure that there would be some local patronage on the services, but given people are already in the habit of using cars, I remain unconvinced. The link itself passes through a less well populated area.

I think that the idea that a Government department will one day think “oh, we were going to build this East-West link, but because the Wealden campaigners have put up such a good argument we’ve decided to spend that money on Uckfield - Lewes instead” is highly unlikely. What the Wealden and the East-West campaigners want is a political change by Governments to support decent schemes like both of these which have the potential to attract passengers and improve connectivity within their areas. Then perhaps they will be able to tackle obstinate county Councils, for example, more readily.

I still don't think you can compare East-West to Wealden, but I take your point. East-West has got to nearly be infinitely more politically back-able at the moment anyway.

If you look at the Glasgow-Edinburgh, it already has two decent rail links whereas Brighton (although not a Glasgow or an Edinburgh admittedly, is still one of the largest Cities in the South East outside London) only has one direct route to London, which is double track for a fair distance, I would say that Wealden is even more important strategically on top of local benefits, which would be many. Whilst rail does indeed already have a high market share within the Brighton area, I suspect it will be unusually low between the larger towns of the Weald, due mainly to the piecemeal nature of the network.

I don't think that BML2 or the reopened Wealden link alone would be like A to B. (I may have already said that ) See fares rant above for journeys between towns.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[PR102]

P.S its also worth noting that, once Lewes is reached the roads become very crap as well, as well as very dangerous!!

There is a bit of dual carrageway from Hailsham to Polegate, then into Eastbourne from the north and west its a nightmare. From the east (A27 Polegate bypass) it's better, for about three and a half miles. Then, onto Pevensey and probably the most dangerous stretch of single carriageway roads I;ve ever driven on...The A259.

I would also like to take this opportuntity to point out that Local COuncils are rubbish with road transport planning and policies too - any much-needed westerly expansion of the A27 from the Polegate bypass section to Brighton is not possible due to a new service station, and a historic airship site, The Hastings/Siddely bypass is going to be a complete mis-fit on the landscape, and of no real benfit (just shunt all the traffic further up to Queensway, missing Hastings altogther-great!).

ANd they can;t stop wasting money meddling with things that don;t need touching either...the lovely fast, flowing roundabout at the juction of the dual carriages from Hailsham and across Polegate were recently violated by traffic lights that caused multiple accidents in their first few weeks of operation - they have since removed them, and they also spent 2 million pounds on putting traffic lights on the Kingsbridge roundabout west of Lewes, and they weren't even needed

And then we have the seagulls stadium...no, I shant go on, else this will have to be copied over to the roads forum website...what's it called..? 'Marples dot com'?
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Sorry, yes "mindset" was completely the wrong term to use. I was essentially trying to sum up the concept of regeneration in South Wales, but in an ill thought out way.

Was it funding / access to funding orientated? Or was it because much of the formations of those schemes were in possibly better condition than what Wealden is?

 

[OxtedL]

P.S its also worth noting that, once Lewes is reached the roads become very crap as well, as well as very dangerous!!

Yes, I agree completely that roads between (say) the Lewes and Eastbourne areas and Brighton are absolutely appalling!!!! Local councils are generally really bad at road planning. Lack of joined up thinking. At the other end of the scale, wider councils/authorities only support big schemes. Not a sustainable way to run road policy.

Was it funding / access to funding orientated? Or was it because much of the formations of those schemes were in possibly better condition than what Wealden is?

Hmmm... I'm not sure. I think in Wales there was less concern about BCRs though, as the schemes could be justified by helping comparatively badly off communities. There certainly haven't been any major engineering concerns, so like Wealden in that respect.

 

[yorksrob]

Fares in the South East are generally far too high for local trips, and suppress the usage of services. Oxted to Hurst Green is a classic. Less than a mile, £2.30 for an off peak return. Think where that would take you in the north. I'm sure that there would be some local patronage on the services, but given people are already in the habit of using cars, I remain unconvinced. The link itself passes through a less well populated area.

Well, there is an element of that I suppose - and I do agree that the incessant price rises in the South East can hinder the railway in delivering social benefits.

However, I don't think that the situation is necesarily too pessimistic in this respect. For example, the Coastway routes, which pass through some much poorer areas, do carry a fair amount of local traffic, even at Southern prices (although I admit that this is also a more heavily populated area than the Weald).

 

[ushawk]

P.S its also worth noting that, once Lewes is reached the roads become very crap as well, as well as very dangerous!!

There is a bit of dual carrageway from Hailsham to Polegate, then into Eastbourne from the north and west its a nightmare. From the east (A27 Polegate bypass) it's better, for about three and a half miles. Then, onto Pevensey and probably the most dangerous stretch of single carriageway roads I;ve ever driven on...The A259.

I would also like to take this opportuntity to point out that Local COuncils are rubbish with road transport planning and policies too - any much-needed westerly expansion of the A27 from the Polegate bypass section to Brighton is not possible due to a new service station, and a historic airship site, The Hastings/Siddely bypass is going to be a complete mis-fit on the landscape, and of no real benfit (just shunt all the traffic further up to Queensway, missing Hastings altogther-great!).

ANd they can;t stop wasting money meddling with things that don;t need touching either...the lovely fast, flowing roundabout at the juction of the dual carriages from Hailsham and across Polegate were recently violated by traffic lights that caused multiple accidents in their first few weeks of operation - they have since removed them, and they also spent 2 million pounds on putting traffic lights on the Kingsbridge roundabout west of Lewes, and they weren't even needed

And then we have the seagulls stadium...no, I shant go on, else this will have to be copied over to the roads forum website...what's it called..? 'Marples dot com'?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Was it funding / access to funding orientated? Or was it because much of the formations of those schemes were in possibly better condition than what Wealden is?

East Sussex arent the best with transport. To put it 1 way, theres a mini roundabout near my house which is covered in potholes and a really bad road surface, ESCC decide to do the pavements instead.

Lewes is an old town, hence why the roads are narrow, twisty etc, although the main entrance roads arent too bad. I do agree the lights on the roundabout at Polegate (Cophall - and after being removed, put back, switched off again and then put back on again) were a bad idea, as were the ones you mentioned.

And whats wrong with the Falmer Stadium ? Its in a good location by being next to the A27 and next to Falmer station.

Now, this may have gone slightly off-topic