Brighton to Belfast via Cairnryan: return via Edinburgh/York?

[pat okeeffe]

I fancy a trip to Northern Ireland, as Ive never been, and noticed on BR fares.com that the return ticket with my Disabled Persons railcard, via Cairnryan, is a very reasonable £76.55 but has a restriction 1X IRELAND VIA CAIRNRYAN. I think this restriction only applies to the outward leg. On my return I would like to visit Edinburgh or maybe York. Can I use the east coast route on this ticket? Its also handy for the short walk from Kings Cross to St Pancras Thameslink where I can easily get a train to Brighton.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, in essence this is a normal Anytime Return from Brighton to Ayr with additional validity from Ayr to Belfast on the coach to Cairnryan and then the ferry.

There are countless permitted routes from Brighton to Ayr, including via the East Coast Mainline.

The Cairnryan SailRail tickets have restriction code 1X, which purports to prohibit break of journey. However, this is essentially unenforceable, both from a practical viewpoint as you are entitled to change trains and to use station facilities (both of which may require you to exit and re-enter barriers) as well as from a legal viewpoint, as most retailers that will sell you this ticket won't inform you of the break of journey restrictions - and will indeed tell you that you can break your journey with it being an Anytime ticket.

It is also highly unlikely that any staff would even consider the possibility that an Anytime ticket might have BoJ restrictions - that is, if they even know what break of journey or permitted routes are!

Naturally, I'd still encourage you to use the ticket in the spirit that it's intended to be used - it's likely that the ticket will be withdrawn, or be changed to an Advance or other ticket type (as is the case for the Fishguard and Holyhead SailRail tickets), if it's "misused".

 

[Wallsendmag]

Then again now it's been flagged on here

 

[Watershed]

Then again now it's been flagged on here

It's been mentioned here multiple times over the years. If the OP is unhappy with this staying up, they can always report their post and ask for the thread to be hidden.

 

[pat okeeffe]

Sorry I dont understand the last two replies. Also what happens at Cairnryan if you cant get on the ferry if its full with car drivers?

 

[bkhtele]

When you buy the ticket it should include a ferry reservation which books a space for you on the ferry. However as long as you are boarding a ferry that accepts foot passengers ( you can check the stena site usually only late & overnight crossing are excluded) you will not have a problem. Exceptions are peak days like 12/7 & major spots events)

 

[pat okeeffe]

Just phoned Stena they allow foot passengers on 07:30, 11:30, 15:30, 19:30 only sailings but class passengers with rail tickets as "Sail Rail" and only let them on the 15:30 sailing as that links in with the bus from Ayr. This would mean I`d have to get a train to London at around midnight and overnight in London to get a train from London on the same day. I`d rather stay overnight in Ayr if necessary and get a ferry earlier the next day - maybe the 11:30 am. I`m not sure my ticket would let me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2023 ==

Just noticed on BRFares that the outward travel can be within 5 days so does that mean your journey can take 5 days so that an overnight stop would be ok, or you have 5 days from the purchase date but must make the journey within one day? Also noticed that the same fare applies from Penzance - so doing the journey in one day would probably be impossible!

 

[Watershed]

Sorry I dont understand the last two replies. Also what happens at Cairnryan if you cant get on the ferry if its full with car drivers?

The suggestion is that by raising the fact that this ticket is capable of being used in an unintended manner on this public forum (which is read by Pricing Managers at TOCs and the industry body RDG), changes may happen even without any evidence of such use.

As with most RoRo ferries, the passenger decks have far more space than the number of people that you might reasonably expect to see, given the number of cars that can fit onboard. It is thus is incredibly unlikely that you would be unable to get on as a foot passenger. You could always contact Stena Line if you're concerned.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2023 ==

Just phoned Stena they allow foot passengers on 07:30, 11:30, 15:30, 19:30 only sailings but class passengers with rail tickets as "Sail Rail" and only let them on the 15:30 sailing as that links in with the bus from Ayr. This would mean I`d have to get a train to London at around midnight and overnight in London to get a train from London on the same day. I`d rather stay overnight in Ayr if necessary and get a ferry earlier the next day - maybe the 11:30 am. I`m not sure my ticket would let me.

I'm not entirely convinced that this is correct. It seems unlikely to me that they would actually turn you away. However, there is always that risk and so you could use your ticket on the Caledonian Sleeper (booking a berth supplement if you would like a berth rather than a seat).

Just noticed on BRFares that the outward travel can be within 5 days so does that mean your journey can take 5 days so that an overnight stop would be ok, or you have 5 days from the purchase date but must make the journey within one day? Also noticed that the same fare applies from Penzance - so doing the journey in one day would probably be impossible!

As it's an Anytime Return, in principle the outward portion is valid for 5 days and the journey can be spread over those 5 days if desired. The difference with this ticket is that there is supposedly a break of journey restriction. Changing trains is not counted as making a break of journey, nor is stopping off overnight if it's impossible to complete your journey. However, as previously mentioned, I would regard the restriction as both unenforceable and unenforced.

 

[pat okeeffe]

Thanks everyone

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
SailRail via Cairnryan used to be so much better but now it's heavily cut back. As you've heard from Stena it really is just available on 1 ferry each way:

Just phoned Stena they allow foot passengers on 07:30, 11:30, 15:30, 19:30 only sailings but class passengers with rail tickets as "Sail Rail" and only let them on the 15:30 sailing as that links in with the bus from Ayr. This would mean I`d have to get a train to London at around midnight and overnight in London to get a train from London on the same day. I`d rather stay overnight in Ayr if necessary and get a ferry earlier the next day - maybe the 11:30 am. I`m not sure my ticket would let me.

I've argued in the past with Stena and there's no budging them from this
(In the summer there are two ferries each way that you can use for SailRail which makes it quite a bit better)

However the SailRail ticket is still useful and you can get some great options staying within the limits of the ticket.Part of the challenge though can be actually buying the ticket as quite often they are simply not loaded into the fares database. At the moment is seems you can't buy one part mid-April...

In practise, the only bit you really can't change is the ferry part. The trains are up to you to find... A quick look shows on the way out you can get the ticket for the Sleeper (seated) but that requires a change at Carlisle and there are return routes via both the ECML and the WCML.

Hope you find something that works and you enjoy your trip over here.
Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[danm14]

Another option, albeit a fair bit more expensive as there are no Railcard discounts on tickets to the Republic, is to go out via Dublin - £48.80 to Dublin plus €16 for an online ticket from Dublin to Belfast, then return via Cairnryan.

You can then leave London around 9am and be in Belfast before 10pm. On the return, you leave Belfast on the 11:30am sailing and arrive in London for 10:30pm (or 11:30pm via Edinburgh). Total price that way is around £100.

Travel via Birkenhead is also a possibility, although it is an 8 hour sailing and requires separate ferry and train tickets.

 

[paulcleaver]

There's quite an extensive web page about the bus transfer between Ayr and Cairnryan. I don't know if that is of interest.

Ayr to Cairnryan Bus

 

[danm14]

There's quite an extensive web page about the bus transfer between Ayr and Cairnryan. I don't know if that is of interest.

Ayr to Cairnryan Bus

And yet, despite the extensive description of the exact minutae of the service, it fails to state the one key piece of information that might actually be useful to someone intending to travel because it's not actually signposted or publicised anywhere - the bus departs from the footpath on Station Road, adjacent to the car park on the platform 4 side of the station.

 

[paulcleaver]

And yet, despite the extensive description of the exact minutae of the service, it fails to state the one key piece of information that might actually be useful to someone intending to travel because it's not actually signposted or publicised anywhere - the bus departs from the footpath on Station Road, adjacent to the car park on the platform 4 side of the station.

That's valuable knowledge. Thank you.

 

[MrJeeves]

Rather strange that this Anytime return with no break of journey has a 5-day outward validity, no?

Also, two singles is 5p less than a return (with only on-the-day validity, so far less flexibility).

 

[pat okeeffe]

Again, thanks everyone for the additional info. I bought my tickets at Brighton ticket office who seem to think I can’t use the east coast route to Ayr via Edinburgh. I was surprised because they’re usually pretty good on this sort of advice. I was also wondering if the restrictions Stena are putting on which sailings a rail ticket holder can use are legal. The ticket itself makes no such stipulation

 

[Haywain]

I was also wondering if the restrictions Stena are putting on which sailings a rail ticket holder can use are legal. The ticket itself makes no such stipulation

Legal or not, they can still prevent you from getting on those sailings they don't want to carry you on.

 

[MrJeeves]

Out of interest, can these tickets be bought anywhere online? GTR doesn't know the destination exists and Trainsplit tells me it isn't open for booking yet.

 

[bkhtele]

Hi there,
SailRail via Cairnryan used to be so much better but now it's heavily cut back. As you've heard from Stena it really is just available on 1 ferry each way:


I've argued in the past with Stena and there's no budging them from this
(In the summer there are two ferries each way that you can use for SailRail which makes it quite a bit better)

However the SailRail ticket is still useful and you can get some great options staying within the limits of the ticket.Part of the challenge though can be actually buying the ticket as quite often they are simply not loaded into the fares database. At the moment is seems you can't buy one part mid-April...

In practise, the only bit you really can't change is the ferry part. The trains are up to you to find... A quick look shows on the way out you can get the ticket for the Sleeper (seated) but that requires a change at Carlisle and there are return routes via both the ECML and the WCML.

Hope you find something that works and you enjoy your trip over here.
Cheers,
Mr Toad

So have you been refused travel by Stena in other sailings? Previously there was no problem. This use to be a great ticket & appears to have some legal protection otherwise it would have been phased out. Perhaps N.Ireland residents should write to their mp as this will make environmentally friendly rail/seat travel uncompetitive v flying.

 

[danm14]

Out of interest, can these tickets be bought anywhere online? GTR doesn't know the destination exists and Trainsplit tells me it isn't open for booking yet.

Yes, not all retailers sell them but a good few do - Trainline, Trainsplit, Avanti, TfW, ScotRail and Chiltern off the top of my head. Chiltern are good for journeys starting in Belfast as they offer free postage of the ticket.

It may not be possible to purchase them from London at present due to the engineering works on the WCML meaning there is no train most days to get you to Glasgow early enough to get to Ayr in time for the connecting bus.

So have you been refused travel by Stena in other sailings? Previously there was no problem.

The problem is that Stena will say that they will refuse to carry you over the phone, but in all likelihood you'll be allowed to board if you arrive at the port. I'm not sure I'd want to risk it, personally. If you get there (after making your own way from Ayr to Cairnryan) and are refused, and have to pay the full foot passenger fare, you've spent more than just travelling via Dublin in the first place, even if you have a Railcard.

 

[MrJeeves]

It may not be possible to purchase them from London at present due to the engineering works on the WCML meaning there is no train most days to get you to Glasgow early enough to get to Ayr in time for the connecting bus.

That'd explain why NRE says I should leave about 10pm the day before then.

 

[bangor-toad]

So have you been refused travel by Stena in other sailings? Previously there was no problem. This use to be a great ticket & appears to have some legal protection otherwise it would have been phased out. Perhaps N.Ireland residents should write to their mp as this will make environmentally friendly rail/seat travel uncompetitive v flying.

Hi,
I've been told that a SailRail ticket would not be valid on any other ferry than the one expected time. My SailRail trips used to be NI to (near) Brighton. Train times for these would fit very nicely with the 7:30am ferry from Belfast and the 7:30pm from Cairnryan. I asked Stena if I could use the SailRail ticket on these services and make my own way from Cairnryan to/from Ayr.

I was told every time emphatically "no". It was suggested I take the Coach and Sail instead. That's OK for parts of Scotland but nowhere else.

What I have not done is to book a SailRail ticket and then turn up to the different sailing. I think there's a reasonable chance of the Stena staff not worrying about it and allowing me on board but it's a fairly substantial risk to start a trip with if I have to wait for the correct ferry and then can't complete my rail journey in England.

In the summer there is an extra SailRail bus trip put on and these sailing are possible to use. For the rest of the year any such trip is now by plane into Gatwick or I take the car on the ferry and drive.
Shame really but there are so few people on the SailRail bus I'm amazed that the service remains at all...
Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[paul1609]

Again, thanks everyone for the additional info. I bought my tickets at Brighton ticket office who seem to think I can’t use the east coast route to Ayr via Edinburgh. I was surprised because they’re usually pretty good on this sort of advice. I was also wondering if the restrictions Stena are putting on which sailings a rail ticket holder can use are legal. The ticket itself makes no such stipulation

I actually think that Brighton are right to tell you that the ticket isn't valid on the ECML. Brighton to Troon Group (Ayr) is a mapped route with routes LONDON, LB + LM + AG (West Coast) and XB + BE +AG (Cross Country via Reading). Validity on the East Coast requires that the inclusion of LONDON as a mapped route means that you can then add in any mapped route from LONDON to Troon Route. If this is so why do you need to specify LB + LM + AG? It's at least a grey area imho and better for a retailer to advise you to go via WCML.

 

[danm14]

I actually think that Brighton are right to tell you that the ticket isn't valid on the ECML. Brighton to Troon Group (Ayr) is a mapped route with routes LONDON, LB + LM + AG (West Coast) and XB + BE +AG (Cross Country via Reading). Validity on the East Coast requires that the inclusion of LONDON as a mapped route means that you can then add in any mapped route from LONDON to Troon Route. If this is so why do you need to specify LB + LM + AG? It's at least a grey area imho and better for a retailer to advise you to go via WCML.

If LONDON is listed as a mapped route, any permitted route from Brighton to London followed by any permitted route from London to Troon is permitted - end of discussion.

The ticket is valid on the ECML to Edinburgh and over to Glasgow, and (subject to the journey being possible, which it isn't northbound apart from when there's a connecting bus for a later sailing in the summer - as you can't get to Ayr early enough) retailers will generate such an itinerary against the ticket without issue.

Southbound journeys will almost certainly be routed via Edinburgh anyway for the next few weeks as a matter of course - as the engineering works on the WCML mean you get to King's Cross nine minutes earlier via Edinburgh than you get to Euston direct from Glasgow.

 

[fandroid]

When you buy the ticket it should include a ferry reservation which books a space for you on the ferry. However as long as you are boarding a ferry that accepts foot passengers ( you can check the stena site usually only late & overnight crossing are excluded) you will not have a problem. Exceptions are peak days like 12/7 & major spots events)

Being English and a bit dim about NI dates I once travelled as a foot passenger from Cairnryan to Larne on 12 July. It actually wasn't that busy. I guess that those wishing to be there on the day would have travelled earlier.

 

[danm14]

Being English and a bit dim about NI dates I once travelled as a foot passenger from Cairnryan to Larne on 12 July. It actually wasn't that busy. I guess that those wishing to be there on the day would have travelled earlier.

The "Eleventh Night" is part of the celebrations; and the main parade in Belfast - which most of the Scottish visitors are attending - starts at 10am, so I wouldn't expect many to be travelling towards Northern Ireland after the very early morning sailings on the 12th.

I wouldn't like to be on any of the evening sailings back to Scotland on the evening of the 12th or at any time on the 13th, though.

 

[Watershed]

I actually think that Brighton are right to tell you that the ticket isn't valid on the ECML. Brighton to Troon Group (Ayr) is a mapped route with routes LONDON, LB + LM + AG (West Coast) and XB + BE +AG (Cross Country via Reading). Validity on the East Coast requires that the inclusion of LONDON as a mapped route means that you can then add in any mapped route from LONDON to Troon Route. If this is so why do you need to specify LB + LM + AG? It's at least a grey area imho and better for a retailer to advise you to go via WCML.

I'm afraid this is simply not correct. The Routeing Guide is clear that you may use any of the map combinations listed in the Yellow Pages, which in the case of LONDON is a reference to the union of all map combinations to and from London Group. Thre's no grey area at all about this; retailers will happily (and correctly) issue itineraries via the ECML if the timings match up with those of the ferry and coach. In some cases they will even default to this due to the current Carstairs engineering works (and no, there aren't any easements that have been added to allow this).

Map combination LB+LM+AG is, as with XB+BE+AG, purely in there to provide an option for avoiding London. Maps LB and LM meet at Clapham Junction, thus allowing you to use the West London Line to avoid London.