Brighton Main Line improvements

[rmHawk765]

I was wondering could any of the 387s that aren't currently with Southern find their way to BML services? E.g. 350/2s to GWR and remaining 387/1s to SN, or extra stock for GN to bring all of those 387s south of the river?

This doesn't fix the issue of the 387s and 377s not being well suited to metro/suburban services though. And if we do order new stock as you suggest, I'd much rather have it built for SN in the first place.

 

[swr444]

Given the 5 car 701s seem to have a questionable future on SWR give them to Southern and that will release 30 units to beef up more the Southern main line to 12 cars.

This myth needs to finally be put to a halt. The 701/5s are staying with SWR as they need them.

 

[Recessio]

The tables are precisely the reason I take the train over the bus on east coastway routes, enabling me to work.

If the proposal is to move 458s over for Coastway services, do they not have any tables at all? (either proper tables or aeroplane style drop-down in the seatbacks)?
I agree the route doesn't feel "metro" enough at least on the East Coastway side of things (I'm not familiar with the West Coastway) to warrant not having any tables at all. Anecdotally here on the East, I can't say I've noticed any worsening of dwell times with the Electrostars vs the 313s that preceded them.

 

[rmHawk765]

If the proposal is to move 458s over for Coastway services

How many 377s are currently needed for the full East & West Coastway service? In my view it is more reasonable to use 458s on South London metro services where frequencies are higher across the board, and distances are shorter. A 458 would not be preferable on London Bridge-Eastbourne, for instance.

do they not have any tables at all? (either proper tables or aeroplane style drop-down in the seatbacks)?

If I remember correctly the 458s do have tables.

 

[JonathanH]

How many 377s are currently needed for the full East & West Coastway service? In my view it is more reasonable to use 458s on South London metro services where frequencies are higher across the board, and distances are shorter. A 458 would not be preferable on London Bridge-Eastbourne, for instance.

Are you talking about London to East / West Coastway or the services that shuttle to and from Brighton. I agree that the former don't make sense for 458s, but the latter could be more self contained. I don't see how 458s are better for South London metro than Brighton metro.

 

[LA50041]

How many 377s are currently needed for the full East & West Coastway service? In my view it is more reasonable to use 458s on South London metro services where frequencies are higher across the board, and distances are shorter.

What stock would you suggest the 458 would replace on Metro?

 

[SECR 65]

How many 377s are currently needed for the full East & West Coastway service?

Brighton - Seaford is 3 diagrams Mon-Sun. No interworking with anything else at all. Mon-Fri usually each a single 377/3, but often subbed by a /1 or /4. At weekends you often find 7 and 8 cars going to Seaford, and some 387s in the mix as well.

Brighton - Lewes needs two diagrams for STP football specials every now and then. The other day these were 2x 377/3+377/3 so four units but another time these were two four cars.

Brighton - Eastbourne / Ore seems to be four units weekdays off peak from a quick glance. These are often 387s but usually four cars, or 8 at weekends.

There might be peak extras but I don't really know.

Sometimes 1U Brighton - Ores seem to interwork with 1F London - Ores if there is a blockade beyond Bexhill.

This means that as far as I can see the East Coastway is 7 units standard weekday off peak, plus the need for two football extra units, so up to 9.

The West Coastway is a much more vast operation.

Happy to be corrected as I have compiled this from quick research.

 

[LA50041]

Brighton - Seaford is 3 diagrams Mon-Sun. No interworking with anything else at all. Mon-Fri usually each a single 377/3, but often subbed by a /1 or /4. At weekends you often find 7 and 8 cars going to Seaford, and some 387s in the mix as well.

Brighton - Lewes needs two diagrams for STP football specials every now and then. The other day these were 2x 377/3+377/3 so four units but another time these were two four cars.

Brighton - Eastbourne / Ore seems to be four units weekdays off peak from a quick glance. These are often 387s but usually four cars, or 8 at weekends.

There might be peak extras but I don't really know.

Sometimes 1U Brighton - Ores seem to interwork with 1F London - Ores if there is a blockade beyond Bexhill.

This means that as far as I can see the East Coastway is 7 units standard weekday off peak, plus the need for two football extra units, so up to 9.

The West Coastway is a much more vast operation.

Happy to be corrected as I have compiled this from quick research.

in the base timetable from May diagrams that are captive to the coastways and don't go anywhere else
West Coastway
7 x 387
1 x 377/4
6 x 377/3

East Coastway
1 387
6 377/4
2 377/3

so 23 units required, not sure how many 458's there are? but obviously fleet spares would be needed, as would for the remaining East/West Coastway - London which would currently share spares and might impact on stabling space.

The only time Seafords are over 4 car is when there is football, and the Lewes Shuttles are 6 car weekends and 4 cars SX as that is all that is currently spare.

 

[rmHawk765]

What stock would you suggest the 458 would replace on Metro?

The 377s/387s, SN's only current stock. I know, it sounds ridiculous, but SN did previously replace 377s with 313s after all. Certain Metro services could be replaced with 458s operating as 12-coach trains. This would free up 377s to make other Metro services 12-coaches.

Are you talking about London to East / West Coastway or the services that shuttle to and from Brighton. I agree that the former don't make sense for 458s, but the latter could be more self contained.

In all honesty having had a thought about it, it may make more sense to make Coastway entirely 458-operated, to avoid a situation where a South London train has to be short-formed because the right type of unit is not available. However I imagine it might be helpful that a Brighton Metro train can become a London train due to it all being a 377/387 operation. With 458s this flexibility is lost though I'm not sure to what extent, if at all, this is done.

so 23 units required, not sure how many 458's there are?

If I remember correctly there are 28 458/4s. Looking at other threads there are/were also 8 458/5s. 4 vs 5 coaches doesn't really matter for Coastway as far as I am aware. Therefore there are more than enough 458s to cover the entire Coastway operation, and in fact service increases are possible.

 

[JonathanH]

in the base timetable from May diagrams that are captive to the coastways and don't go anywhere else
West Coastway
7 x 387
1 x 377/4
6 x 377/3

East Coastway
1 387
6 377/4
2 377/3

so 23 units required, not sure how many 458's there are? but obviously fleet spares would be needed, as would for the remaining East/West Coastway - London which would currently share spares and might impact on stabling space.

28 458s seems nigh on perfect for 23 captive diagrams. (I think the 8 5-car 458/5s can be considered not relevant.)

Certain Metro services could be replaced with 458s operating as 12-coach trains.

I don't think there are any Metro routes good for 12-coach operation (other than if you count East Grinstead as relevant).

 

[LA50041]

The 377s/387s, SN's only current stock. I know, it sounds ridiculous, but SN did previously replace 377s with 313s after all. Certain Metro services could be replaced with 458s operating as 12-coach trains. This would free up 377s to make other Metro services 12-coaches.


In all honesty having had a thought about it, it may make more sense to make Coastway entirely 458-operated, to avoid a situation where a South London train has to be short-formed because the right type of unit is not available. However I imagine it might be helpful that a Brighton Metro train can become a London train due to it all being a 377/387 operation. With 458s this flexibility is lost though I'm not sure to what extent, if at all, this is done.


If I remember correctly there are 28 458/4s. Looking at other threads there are/were also 8 458/5s. 4 vs 5 coaches doesn't really matter for Coastway as far as I am aware. Therefore there are more than enough 458s to cover the entire Coastway operation, and in fact service increases are possible.

No Metro routes can accommodate 12 car, so you would need to reduce most metro routes to 8 vice 10 which is unpalatable.

Whilst 28 units would be useful for the coastways, the issue of the additional units on stabling would be a big issue as they can't be subbed for units that run to London

 

[rmHawk765]

No Metro routes can accommodate 12 car, so you would need to reduce most metro routes to 8 vice 10 which is unpalatable.

I was under the impression that they were? I stand corrected in that case. However I was reading another thread and there was a lot of mention of SN keeping to 8 coaches maximum, so I guess that is actually for longer routes?

 

[JonathanH]

I was under the impression that they were? I stand corrected in that case. However I was reading another thread and there was a lot of mention of SN keeping to 8 coaches maximum, so I guess that is actually for longer routes?

The mention in the other threads has been about most services between London and the coast running as 8 car rather than 12 car as people would like and happened before the downturn in commuting. East Grinstead can run 12 car, as can Three Bridges via Redhill but metro routes don't allow more than 10, some only 8.

Despite what is sometimes written, all of the routes than can take 12 car services still have some 12 car workings.

 

[yorksrob]

Ore to Brighton and Brighton to Southampton are hefty journeys that require toilets and tables.

 

[foggy69]

Are 458's able to work DOO.
Southern only have guards now for the Marshlink, Uckfield and WLL services.

 

[PZ 08895]

Are 458's able to work DOO.
Southern only have guards now for the Marshlink, Uckfield and WLL services.

Class 458 do not have external cameras unlike Class 377/387s and there are no platform cameras and monitor banks on Southern anymore (and never were on the Coastway routes). So no, cannot run DOO other than ECS, without train or station camera and monitor fitment which would be expensive and may well not be possible at all on the trains.

 

[SECR 65]

Seeing as many of Southern's OBSs are ex-guards, would it be possible to re-introduce the guard role on some services - would this be easier than installing DOO equipment?

 

[Javelin_55]

Is this why we’ve got such a weird mish-mash of 387s?

Basically. Internally Gatwick Airport staff are furious that this has been allowed to happen. Southern services are made up of Gatwick Express liveried 387s, meanwhile Gatwick Express services are made up of one GatEx, one ex GWR, and one ex-Great Northern 387. Add to the mix a sprinkling of jetlagged passengers with restrictive tickets (that airport signage says MUST be purchased before travel on pain of penalty fares) and you get some seriously confused tourists trying their best to ask why the train they've just paid for is going to Eastbourne instead of London.

Staff have raised repeatedly with senior management who have said the stock is simply not there and nothing can/will be done. It will be GBR's problem to sort out as and when they get round to it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2026 ==

Are 458's able to work DOO.
Southern only have guards now for the Marshlink, Uckfield and WLL services.

Do they not also subcontract Southeastern's Tonbridge guards for Redhill-Tonbridge?

 

[SECR 65]

Looking at today, it seems the allocations have improved. Of the six Gatex diagrams, five of them are pairs of red 387/2s, and the sixth is a red /2 working with a white /1.

Maybe the spare /2s should go on Coastway services to stay away from the airport?

 

[Jim]

Am I correct in saying 458s do not have DOO cameras? If that is the case, there is limited use for them in the current operating model of Southern surely?

In a way, would GatEx be a good place for these? You could do this fairly easy as the off peak timetable is all CD RA dispatch, but obviously peak times they do stops like Preston Park etc

 

[SECR 65]

How many 458s are there? GatEx is 12 units in the peaks - but you could strengthen to 12 coach trains to make 18 units.

 

[rmHawk765]

How many 458s are there? GatEx is 12 units in the peaks - but you could strengthen to 12 coach trains to make 18 units.

28 458/4s, plus apparently 8 458/5s but it's unlikely anything will be done with those. So more than enough.

Are there guards on Coastway? If not, the previous suggestion of sending the 458s there doesn't look quite as promising.

 

[Jim]

28 458/4s, plus apparently 8 458/5s but it's unlikely anything will be done with those. So more than enough.

Are there guards on Coastway? If not, the previous suggestion of sending the 458s there doesn't look quite as promising.

Only based at Eastbourne for 171 work to Ashford I believe.

Of course, East Grinstead is an option that should not be overlooked, if they were to expand the head count at Selhurst? As they already sign the route Croydon to Grinstead for 171 diversions if there is a riot on the Uckfield line.

 

[SECR 65]

28 458/4s, plus apparently 8 458/5s but it's unlikely anything will be done with those. So more than enough.

Are there guards on Coastway? If not, the previous suggestion of sending the 458s there doesn't look quite as promising.

Oxted Tunnel is very tight - would the 458s fit? As far as I can establish, a 455 for example would not fit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2026 ==

Even crazier idea - battery or bi-mode fit the 455s to replace the 171s on Uckfield and Marshlink - then no need for DOO cameras. Apologies if this was suggested up thread somewhere.

 

[rmHawk765]

In a way, would GatEx be a good place for these? You could do this fairly easy as the off peak timetable is all CD RA dispatch, but obviously peak times they do stops like Preston Park etc

I personally wouldn't like this per-time allocation - it just puts a huge liability on peak services as a 377/387 has to show up for them to run. DOO equipment will need to be installed anyway, and it's likely better for reliability to make the self-contained Coastway services a 458 operation entirely, and retain BML stock as intercompatible. However as I mentioned earlier you sort of lose the ability to turn a local train around and send it to London; it's not that it's not possible to actually get the train there, it's that everything else will be an Electrostar and it puts a liability on those lone 458s going to London.

 

[London Trains]

Brighton - Seaford is 3 diagrams Mon-Sun. No interworking with anything else at all. Mon-Fri usually each a single 377/3, but often subbed by a /1 or /4. At weekends you often find 7 and 8 cars going to Seaford, and some 387s in the mix as well.

Brighton - Lewes needs two diagrams for STP football specials every now and then. The other day these were 2x 377/3+377/3 so four units but another time these were two four cars.

Brighton - Eastbourne / Ore seems to be four units weekdays off peak from a quick glance. These are often 387s but usually four cars, or 8 at weekends.

There might be peak extras but I don't really know.

Sometimes 1U Brighton - Ores seem to interwork with 1F London - Ores if there is a blockade beyond Bexhill.

This means that as far as I can see the East Coastway is 7 units standard weekday off peak, plus the need for two football extra units, so up to 9.

The West Coastway is a much more vast operation.

Happy to be corrected as I have compiled this from quick research.

I believe these are the number of diagrams on the West and East Coastways, though I could be slightly off:

Brighton to Southampton - 8 diagrams
Brighton to Portsmouth - 3 diagrams
Brighton to Chichester - 3 diagrams
Brighton to Ore - 3 diagrams
Brighton to Eastbourne - 2 diagrams
Brighton to Seaford - 3 diagrams
Barnham to Bognor Regis - 1 diagram
Total 23 diagrams

If the issues around DOO could be resolved, the 28 458/4s would pretty much be a perfect fit for a self-contained operation on the Coastways.

At the weekend, the 6 377s/387s used on the London Bridge to Eastbourne/Littlehampton/Bognor Regis peak extras during the week could be used on the East Coastway alongside the 458s to ensure services can continue to be strengthened to 8 coaches as necessary, and to ensure that the London and Brighton services can continue to interwork during Hastings blockades using 377s/387s as you mention.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2026 ==

GatEx is 12 units in the peaks - but you could strengthen to 12 coach trains to make 18 units.

Unless they get rid of the scam fares and add Clapham Junction and East Croydon stops, the Gatwick Express is probably the one service on the BML I'd say doesn't need strengthening.

Any extra units would be much more well-used getting all of the Victoria to Eastbourne, Littlehampton and Portsmouth/Bognor Regis services up to 12 coaches, and there should be more than enough units available for this to happen if the 458s move to Southern. The missing metro services, Victoria to Epsom via Hackbridge and Victoria to Sutton via Norbury also need restoring, but this doesn't actually require any more units apart from a couple of extra maintenance spares as they already run at peak times.

 

[devon_belle]

The tables are precisely the reason I take the train over the bus on east coastway routes, enabling me to work.

Likewise. My commute is over 1 hour each way in the "metro" area. It would not be feasible if we had no tables or 3+2 seating.

 

[London Trains]

The Watford services are also crying out to be strengthened from 4/5 cars back to 8.

Yeah this really needs to happen - it also frees up 3 more 377/7s that can go towards making the Victoria to Dorking/Horsham and London Bridge to Epsom services fully 10 coach, which is also desperately needed.

 

[MrJeeves]

This would free up 377s to make other Metro services 12-coaches.

The reality is that it will mainly be freeing up 377s for Southeastern to replace Networkers.

 

[devon_belle]

The reality is that it will mainly be freeing up 377s for Southeastern to replace Networkers.

As a biased Southern customer this frustrates me so much! I don't see why the Networkers can't eke out a few more years allowing Southern to gain some units.