Brighton Main Line closed again

[infobleep]

To be fair to Southern, all trains were running until the Ore train [which leaves Haywards Heath at 6.34] didn't make it through. Thus surely something happened at that point for it to be a problem, rather than an existing problem being just as bad as when trains were going through.

Anyway now it's just the following "Trains between Haywards Heath and Gatwick Airport are being delayed by up to 45 minutes". That being at the top of the live departure board.

The thing is, how could they possibly known what percentage of a delay is due to the flood and the other percentage due to the overhead wire problems. I say this because one train is 84 minutes late and another is 112 minutes late. 5 other trains are delayed and another cancelled. There is at least one that is just 10 minutes late.

 

[Fincra5]

Now would it have been better if a severe weather warning had been issued last night and Southern announced all services would be suspended this morning on the BML until the track had been checked?

There was no warning.. hence no plan at all! Most of my passengers diverted via Horsham were actually alright, taking it with a pitch of salt. S**T happens

 

[tsr]

Right... things just got more interesting... a landslip is blocking lines in the Battle area. Buses are planned.

 

[Johnny_w]

Going too the bkuebell tomorrow.....whats the chances of the line being opened too east grinstead and/or haywards heath?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Right... things just got more interesting... a landslip is blocking lines in the Battle area. Buses are planned.

I refer you to Post 9 in the thread where I asked whether diverting via the Hastings line was a good idea due tot he number of landslides on that line recently!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was no warning.. hence no plan at all! Most of my passengers diverted via Horsham were actually alright, taking it with a pitch of salt. S**T happens

I appreciate that, its just we had all sorts of people complaining when advance notice of closure of the line was given to enable it to be checked. I just wondered if those complaining it was shut without notice would have preferred a warning?

 

[user15681]

Currently at Woolwich Arsenal & a Charing Cross to Dover Priory train has just trundled through!

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it would have been a Victoria to Dover Priory service. They were being diverted via Dartford due to two separate sites between Swanley and Rochester where there had been landslips within hours of each other. The 13:52 was routed via Dartford initially, but at the last second at Nunhead was put back onto line of route as the line had reopened.

The landslips between Swanley and Rochester, one the country side of Longfield and the other the country side of Sole Street, looked bad. There were 5 or 6 at each site, large mounds of earth still visible at the bottom. 20mph TSR past Longfield and a much slower TSR past Sole Street, possibly 10mph. Trees and branches that had been deposited by the slip could be heard hitting the equipment under the train, did not sound healthy. I must admit, having gone past those areas the past few days the embankments really did look like they were close to crumbling away.

 

[tsr]

Flooding is now reported in the Horsham area, which is causing some delays, apparently.

 

[ushawk]

More heavy rain forecasted - it's going to be pretty ugly out there.

 

[user15681]

Yet another landslip between Swanley and Chatham, the third one today, at Farningham Road this time. Engineers on the way and line will be blocked once they arrive. No other information I'm afraid, although it really would not surprise me if more occur in the area if the rain continues. It seems just as the service gets up and running again, another one happens.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

To be fair to Southern, all trains were running until the Ore train [which leaves Haywards Heath at 6.34] didn't make it through. Thus surely something happened at that point for it to be a problem, rather than an existing problem being just as bad as when trains were going through.

Anyway now it's just the following "Trains between Haywards Heath and Gatwick Airport are being delayed by up to 45 minutes". That being at the top of the live departure board.

The thing is, how could they possibly known what percentage of a delay is due to the flood and the other percentage due to the overhead wire problems. I say this because one train is 84 minutes late and another is 112 minutes late. 5 other trains are delayed and another cancelled. There is at least one that is just 10 minutes late.

Isn't the Brighton main line all third rail?

Presumably, as it starts to flood, the water will eventually short circuit the juice rail and/or the track circuiting/signalling and/or bring down debris inside the Balcombe tunnel?

 

[DJL]

Yet another landslip between Swanley and Chatham, the third one today, at Farningham Road this time. Engineers on the way and line will be blocked once they arrive. No other information I'm afraid, although it really would not surprise me if more occur in the area if the rain continues. It seems just as the service gets up and running again, another one happens.

Maybe the stress of trains passing disturbs the soil sufficiently for it to collapse?

 

[gnolife]

Isn't the Brighton main line all third rail?

Presumably, as it starts to flood, the water will eventually short circuit the juice rail and/or the track circuiting/signalling and/or bring down debris inside the Balcombe tunnel?

Bedford to City Thameslink is OHLE though, so presumably that service was a FCC

 

[SF-02]

Now would it have been better if a severe weather warning had been issued last night and Southern announced all services would be suspended this morning on the BML until the track had been checked?

Depends what the forecast was? I'm going to have a look on weather forums to see what the predictions were. If they were for very bad weather (20-40mm of rain) network rail may have questions to answer.

When they announced the midday start on southeastern the predictions were downgraded heavily the day before so it seemed they were not relying on up to date information. Not only downgraded a few hours before, but 24 hours before, yet they didn't act upon the latest information. If the same happened this time they need to change the time frame they are basing decisions on. Though it seems the landslide occurred once services had begun at around 6-7am so not much could be done.

 

[user15681]

Maybe the stress of trains passing disturbs the soil sufficiently for it to collapse?

That could be likely. The embankments either side of the line are very steep, mainly chalk and mud. A landslip occured on the up line in the area recently with a TSR still in place. Now 3 in the down direction, although the most recent one at Farningham Road seems less severe and as though they only want to put a block in to clear it up a little to prevent it worsening. I'm no expert, but the embankments look very weak with a lot of minor slips along the line. A lot more chalk, rocks and earth along side the tracks than normal.

 

[Taunton]

Maybe the stress of trains passing disturbs the soil sufficiently for it to collapse?

I suspect more likely is drainage choked due to lack of maintenance. You only have to look at the uncontrolled weed-strewn permanent way in many places nowadays to consider what happens when the roots of those weeds penetrate and block or break the drainage channels.

Old railway pictures invariably show not a weed on main line tracks. Current ones show significant weeds, and indeed sometimes small shrubs, all over the active permanent way. Where the ballast was maintained, the drains were maintained as well. Economy in these areas is a great way to cut down on this year's maintenance budget, at the expense of stoking up big problems for the future, but then nobody on infrastructure maintenance nowadays seems to have been paying any attention in the earthworks construction and maintenance part of their Civil Engineering courses at college.

For our PW readers, how often do you rod the trackside drains nowadays. And for the older ones, how often did you do it a generation ago?

 

[Bald Rick]

Track drainage doesn't stop cutting landslides. You need drainage at the top and down the cuttings to stop that.

The civil engineers have been out all day (and yesterday) checking these sites.

There has been a phenomenal amount of rain local to some of these sites - the cutting at Wadhurst had 2 months' worth in less than a week (yes someone measured it) and that was before yesterday.

 

[user15681]

Track drainage doesn't stop cutting landslides. You need drainage at the top and down the cuttings to stop that.

The civil engineers have been out all day (and yesterday) checking these sites.

There has been a phenomenal amount of rain local to some of these sites - the cutting at Wadhurst had 2 months' worth in less than a week (yes someone measured it) and that was before yesterday.

Credit to all involved in restoring services, I must add. The rain was incredible as you say, and as soon as it started raining again this afternoon I feared more incidents could occur.

 

[Hophead]

Depends what the forecast was? I'm going to have a look on weather forums to see what the predictions were. If they were for very bad weather (20-40mm of rain) network rail may have questions to answer.

When they announced the midday start on southeastern the predictions were downgraded heavily the day before so it seemed they were not relying on up to date information. Not only downgraded a few hours before, but 24 hours before, yet they didn't act upon the latest information. If the same happened this time they need to change the time frame they are basing decisions on. Though it seems the landslide occurred once services had begun at around 6-7am so not much could be done.

The rainfall was in a very narrow band - Met Office reported something like 36mm at Charlwood (i.e. Gatwick), but 3.5mm at Shoreham-by-Sea during the 24 hours of Thursday 9am - Friday 9am..

 

[Taunton]

Track drainage doesn't stop cutting landslides. You need drainage at the top and down the cuttings to stop that.

Correct. You need adequate provision at the top of cuttings. The engineering term is "French Drain". Even the likes of Brunel knew about this. They must have been put in 150 years ago during construction. When were they last inspected?

 

[yorksrob]

The engineering term is "French Drain".

Sounds like a bad Shakespearean euphemism to me

 

[edwin_m]

The Daily Express forecast this in November.

November 2012

I can confidently predict that there will be some floods in the UK over the next year. Now where's my cheque?

 

[Bald Rick]

Correct. You need adequate provision at the top of cuttings. The engineering term is "French Drain". Even the likes of Brunel knew about this. They must have been put in 150 years ago during construction. When were they last inspected?

If only Brunel had built the Hastings line, rather than a bunch of cowboys!

 

[ushawk]

The rainfall was in a very narrow band - Met Office reported something like 36mm at Charlwood (i.e. Gatwick), but 3.5mm at Shoreham-by-Sea during the 24 hours of Thursday 9am - Friday 9am..

Thats why Mid-Sussex was badly hit by flooding and places like Shoreham along the coast werent really affected.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Depends what the forecast was? I'm going to have a look on weather forums to see what the predictions were. If they were for very bad weather (20-40mm of rain) network rail may have questions to answer.

When they announced the midday start on southeastern the predictions were downgraded heavily the day before so it seemed they were not relying on up to date information. Not only downgraded a few hours before, but 24 hours before, yet they didn't act upon the latest information. If the same happened this time they need to change the time frame they are basing decisions on. Though it seems the landslide occurred once services had begun at around 6-7am so not much could be done.

I wasn't so much saying that they should have announced a late start, just is it better having an unannounced closure or one where when gets warned the night before?

 

[ushawk]

I wasn't so much saying that they should have announced a late start, just is it better having an unannounced closure or one where when gets warned the night before?

Well obviously a closure announced the night before is better !!

There was no need for any late starts either. The majority of the SE Rail Network was unaffected.

 

[Minstral25]

There is a big problem with the announced closure the night before, Southern/FCC/Network Rail don't plan how they will rebuild the service after.

So at around 9am the service is announced as started, they start running trains out of the depot at Brighton, as there is so many passengers at Brighton the first services are expresses to London and Gatwick. Around 10:00 the first train heads out for intermediate stations (like Redhill) and at 10:30 it arrives 4 packed coaches for 2,000 passengers crammed on the platform. Why only 4 coaches not 12 who knows and why not send non-stop to Redhill so there is room for passengers. The next one will be along in 30 minutes. This is what happened last time. So most people get to work around lunchtime or don't get paid for work - £6 on delay repay doesn't make up for a days pay or put dinner on the table Saturday night.

Common sense would say, lets open the line in stages, start with Victoria to East Croydon so we can run London Metro services, then extend down the BML towards Brighton. As we know it's happening in advance this way have a 12 coach unit or 2 stabled at places like Redhill where there is siding unused and staff sign on ready to start the first service at 9 when the line is cleared not 1 or 2 hours later. (Yes, that may mean send up a extra service to get the units there and send the driver home by taxi, but it's done to help your the passengers)

The problems on the BML over the last three months have been exasperated by the weather issues but there has been general issues as well. Shortfalls of units, signal problems, congestion that seems to be up a serious notch up this winter compared to previous winters. And we haven't had snow yet!