Brighton and Hove versus The Big Lemon

[robertclark125]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/search/?search=the+big+lemon

You'll no doubt be aware of the row involving these two firms, and the fact that The Big Lemon has complained to the Office of Fair Trading. Correct me though, if I'm wrong, but isn't competition meant to bring about cheaper things, even bus travel? If so, then surely Brighton and Hove are entitled to compete with TBL on price?

Anyway, everyones views please, and also, can The Big Lemon survive?

 

[WestCoast]

Yes, they are encouraged to compete with each other.

But it will surely depend on the what tactics have been used. I remember the whole Stagecoach and Preston Bus saga, which concluded in the sale of PB to Rotala after Stagecoach took them over.

There was accusations of egg-throwing, ridiculously low-pricing, buses trying to get ahead of each other and aggressive touts at bus stops. I used a route where they both competed and saw it for myself.

I faced a tout and told him exactly why I think Stagecoach Bus are rubbish, they are destroyers and the bus routes where they face no competition are shoddy and expensive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Big Lemon seemed like an interesting venture, it does feel a little bit 'gimmicky' though. Some people can't be bothered waiting for a certain bus and I don't blame them for picking the more frequent operator.

 

[Ivo]

This is one of those few examples where the smaller company doesn't really have a case. It's not as though B&H have cut their fares to a point well below the Big Lemon, is it? Or as though they are using phantom tactics? Or carefully retiming just ahead of the BL? The (N)25 isn't exactly a small or minor route; it's a powerhouse. It even has artics now. People have the right to choose their bus, and this is one of the few instances where I would side with the "Big Boy". I am surprised the Bi Lemon has even lasted this long. And then there's the small matter of Falmer Stadium; when it opens, which would people choose: (a) the dedicated supporter route or otherwise the 25, or (b) a little yellow Vario minibus?

I actually think that the article is biased against B&H; why else would they have included Go-Ahead's net profit?

 

[Anvil1984]

The thing is this happens all the time where new smaller operators introduce services onto big companies routes to try and attract custom then the big companies will protect there custom by fair means or foul.
For instance in Newcastle Stagecoach (or maybe on one occasion may have been Busways before them) had to keep fighting off competitors on the 12 and 39/40 route first by Welcome (who I think they may have ended up buying) then HMB.
In York you have the current on-going battle between Pullman and First on the 4 route (Pullman are taking them on with their new-ish 44).

There doesnt seem to be any imagination from the new comers, its just what route can get us money quickly and annoy the big boy the most. That tactic rarely sees the underdog win

 

[ushawk]

Brighton and Hove have always been the bigger company in the city and offer more choice. If im correct they only operate between the University/Falmer and the city centre, the same as B&H's higher frequency route 25 (and 28/29 from Falmer).

Also, i believe this is the second time Big Lemon have been operating, after the first time they stopped due to high running costs. Perhaps if they operated on an alternative route which B&H dont then they might make money.

Should also point out that this is from a Councillor in Brighton, who is also a member of the Green party. I thought that they would be praising B&H for reducing fares as it would encourage the use of buses.

 

[tbtc]

This is one of those few examples where the smaller company doesn't really have a case

I agree.

You can't turn up to compete with existing services, then cry "unfair" when the existing operator decides to strike back (see also WSMR being unhappy when Virgin decided to retaliate).

If you're going to have competition then it has to work both ways - Big Lemon knew what they were getting in for, surely

 

[BestWestern]

It seems that BL were hoping to reply on their ethical credentials - which I believe include running their vehicles on bio fuel and trading as some kind of a 'co-operative'? -to attract business. In a trendy place like Brighton that's probably worth a shot, but if it's not a success then so be it. It does irritate me a tad when a newcomer attempts to take their bite out of an established firm's customer flow and then goes running to the authorities hoping for a helping hand when it doesn't work out! I think in a situation like Brighton where you have a firm considered to be one of the country's best, the case for this type of piecemeal competition is very limited TBH.

 

[Via Bank]

Having recently been down to Brighton, and having conducted a not-at-all scientific look at the transport situation there, I think the main market for the BL buses is students. There seem to be three main reasons for this, aside from the obvious issue of routing, and the eco-credentials:

1. Customer service - the drivers have a reputation for being very friendly (quote: "legendary.")
2. Fares (until recently, obviously.)
3. The special offers, of which there are squillions - in particular, the one that runs during Freshers' week where pax can exchange a lemon for a weekly ticket (!)

Unfortunately, IMHO in this case BL has very little to stand on with regards to B&H's fare lowering. There are four route 42s per hour between Brighton and the University of Sussex, via Moulescoomb. I think the B&H frequency on this route (23 - Brighton Marina to the universities) is six minutes - and it's 24 hours Mon-Fri, too, so more popular with clubbers and night owls.

As I see it through my non-accountant's eyes, the BL has three courses of action:

• Lower fares again, to entice more students to wait for a BL.
• Invest in new, easy-access buses (with a cash injection, of course) to entice more elderlies onto the BL. (Of course, given that they have free bus passes anyway, they'll take the first bus that turns up, and the increased passenger loadings and subsequent subsidy could not be enough to offset the initial outlay.)
• Sell themselves to B&H, taking the drivers and the branding (and possibly eco-credentials) with them, given that these seem to be the most popular aspects of the service.

 

[robertclark125]

Anyone got any updates on what is happening? Nothing on the Argus website of late.

 

[anthony263]

I think the Big Lemon should purchase at least 1 low floor bus, there are a lot of low floor vehicles going for similar prices to step entrance vehicles.

I have seen a optare solo for as low as £18,500.

Besides Veolia Transport cymru may be willing to sell some of their low floor vehicles for cheap prices, all big lemon have to do is get them up and running again.

 

[cainebj]

THE BIG LEMON C.I.C. T/A THE BIG LEMON, OFFICE 3, PROTRAN HOUSE, BOUNDARY ROAD, BLACK ROCK, BRIGHTON, BN2 5TJ
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Whitehawk Lidl and Falmer Station given service number 42/N42 effective from 18-Jul-2011.

THE BIG LEMON C.I.C. T/A THE BIG LEMON, OFFICE 3, PROTRAN HOUSE, BOUNDARY ROAD, BLACK ROCK, BRIGHTON, BN2 5TJ
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Whitehawk Lidl and Varley Halls given service number 44/N44 effective from 18-Jul-2011.

 

[anthony263]

I am surprised it isnt on their facebook page yet.

 

[robertclark125]

Will those not just be the cancellations for the academic holidays?

 

[Deerfold]

Will those not just be the cancellations for the academic holidays?

If they've any sense they'll have registered those at the same time as their original timetables or they'll be paying VOSA fees needlessly.

 

[robertclark125]

http://www.thebiglemon.com/communit...arketingArticleViewer001Article&iuid=16459576

Anyone know what the outcome of this meeting was?

 

[Deerfold]

I hadn't realised the 42 was a Douglas Adams reference!

And they have a 44 as it's "Nice looking"

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Gosh, that website kills my eyes!

Best of luck to them, though!

 

[robertclark125]

The Big Lemon's twitter and own website have said that the last day of service was 2nd July, and services will return in September. So check out this from Notices and Proceedings in May

PK1068783/8
THE BIG LEMON C.I.C. T/A THE BIG LEMON, OFFICE 3, PROTRAN HOUSE, BOUNDARY ROAD, BLACK ROCK, BRIGHTON BN2 5TJ
Operating between Whitehawk Lidl and Falmer Station given service number 42/N42 effective from 18-Jul-2011.
THE BIG LEMON C.I.C. T/A THE BIG LEMON, OFFICE 3, PROTRAN HOUSE, BOUNDARY ROAD, BLACK ROCK, BRIGHTON BN2 5TJ
PK1068783/9
Operating between Whitehawk Lidl and Varley Halls given service number 44/N44 effective from 18-Jul-2011.

To me, that means they stopped services 16 days early. Their timetables do say, to be fair, that services run until 2nd July. But if that's the case, why did they post a cancellation date of 18th July with the traffic commissioner?

 

[BestWestern]

I think the Big Lemon should purchase at least 1 low floor bus, there are a lot of low floor vehicles going for similar prices to step entrance vehicles.

I have seen a optare solo for as low as £18,500.

Besides Veolia Transport cymru may be willing to sell some of their low floor vehicles for cheap prices, all big lemon have to do is get them up and running again.

Trouble is, that's a heck of a chunk of money for a small, struggling operator. Their best bet for cheapy low floor motors would be almost life-expired Dart SLFs, which can be had for under 10k but will generally be on their last legs or somewhere very close to it. Probably better to do what BL have done and buy high quality sturdy 'steppers' (ex-Stagecoach Volvo B10M etc) which are fine for the majority of their student customer base and will keep going 'till Doomsday comes around again!

 

[Deerfold]

Trouble is, that's a heck of a chunk of money for a small, struggling operator. Their best bet for cheapy low floor motors would be almost life-expired Dart SLFs, which can be had for under 10k but will generally be on their last legs or somewhere very close to it. Probably better to do what BL have done and buy high quality sturdy 'steppers' (ex-Stagecoach Volvo B10M etc) which are fine for the majority of their student customer base and will keep going 'till Doomsday comes around again!

And then they've got to do the conversion required so they run on their unusual fuel.

 

[cainebj]

To me, that means they stopped services 16 days early. Their timetables do say, to be fair, that services run until 2nd July. But if that's the case, why did they post a cancellation date of 18th July with the traffic commissioner?

The registration for the services is only for the university term, with the VOSA registration itself running all year round, not being cancelled when not term time. They have put in the route cancellations now in preparation for a new route starting from September.
It works on the same basis as Stagecoach North West for example. They have an increased frequency on some services over summer only, but those extra runs are registered as summer runs only, meaning Stagecoach don't need to put through a service variation at the start and end of summer.
Similarly, Stagecoach in Lancaster run Lancaster Bus Station - Lancaster University runs in university term time only, like the Big Lemon. These term time only runs aren't removed from the VOSA registration for over summer while not running.

Hope that makes some sense.