Bridges - Referencing

[gopub2pub]

Hi, I am looking for information relating to the referencing of railway bridges. I'm interested in bridges on new and old lines. Could someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks

 

[edwin_m]

Do you want to know the way they are referenced or the actual references? I think the references are only on internal NR documents but someone may know better.

 

[carriageline]

Don't they have the bridge name on the plate that says "In event of bridge strike, contact the rail authority"?

General question really

 

[gopub2pub]

Thanks for the reply. Yes. Its the actual references. Although I am also interested in the history of referencing. i.e When did the railways decide it was a good idea to reference bridges? Be great to find some old maps with the references on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
carriageline, Yes. many do. The document I'd like to see is the one that the person on the other end of the phone is looking at. Not sure I should phone the number though. Don't want to cause a panic!

 

[Ploughman]

Bridges are numbered in series along a route.
Each route is allocated an ELR - Engineers Line Reference.
If you have a copy of a Quail Map you will see a 3 letter and possibly a numeric suffix
along the lines of TJC3. Which in this case means Tapton Junction - Colne section 3
Not all the full route is required to exist as in this case Section 4 is non existant having closed years ago. Skipton - Colne.

On a bridge you will see at track side a plate with a the structure number indicated on it. There is in most cases now the ELR also included but in all cases only when they have been replaced. Additionally if the structure is a road bridge over or under the railway there may be a plate or painted information on the bridge abutments or copes. giving the same detail.

 

[edwin_m]

Just to add if extra bridges are added later, they will take the lower number of the nearest two numbered bridges with a suffix A, B etc. I believe bridges added between A and B will be suffixed AA, AB etc. Not sure what happens if one is added between the numbered bridge and the "A" bridge.

 

[gopub2pub]

Thanks. "googling" Quail Maps

 

[edwin_m]

The Sectional Appendices on the Network Rail website have more information than the Quail maps and can be downloaded free, though it a much less easily digestible format!

 

[LDECRexile]

This serves as a starter for ten: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineers_line_reference

This Wikipedia page links to Phil Deave's superb, authoritative website which deals with Engineers' Line References (ELRs) which break every line in the country into sections from which it is possible to identify every bridge. The (usually stencilled) codes you see on railway bridges are typically in the format nnn/XXX which is bridge number nnn on line XXX.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Not sure what happens if one is added between the numbered bridge and the "A" bridge.

There aren't any hard and fast rules - NR will try to preserve the original number(s) for as long as possible, so inserting a bridge between 10 and 10A you might get 10AA, or as we may have on one scheme to be delivered by 2016, 10B (so it goes 10 / 10B / 10A).

As to the orignal numbers, 99% have the numbers they were given when built in the first place, and Engineer's Line References were generally arranged so that each ELR had only one of each bridge number, but not necessarily starting at one. ELR WSJ2 has bridge numbers 515A to 549 ...

On my lines , the Lancaster and Preston Junction Railway is now CGJ6, with bridge numbers from 124-129 (imported from the inferior North Union "branch") and then 3 to 97.

The rather trying Lancaster and Carlisle Railway is now CGJ7, bridge numbers 1 to 246 (yes I am aware that there are two other "bridge 1"s on this ELR - there always have to be exceptions [significant kudos for anyone who names them])

 

[gopub2pub]

Picked up a Quail Map for Southern & TfL. Some bridges get a mention. I'll check out the Sectional Appendices on the Network Rail website next as suggested. Here is an interesting bridge fact: None of the bridges on the Watercress Line are marked with their ELR which is AIW. However, if you visit bridges between Alresford and Winchester all the bridges I managed to get to do! ..Perhaps this is an ownership thing and the Mid Hants Railway removed the markings? Tempted to make a stencil and put things right
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has anyone seen a Quail map or any other map that shows all the bridges and their numbers?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This serves as a starter for ten: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineers_line_reference

This Wikipedia page links to Phil Deave's superb, authoritative website which deals with Engineers' Line References (ELRs) which break every line in the country into sections from which it is possible to identify every bridge. The (usually stencilled) codes you see on railway bridges are typically in the format nnn/XXX which is bridge number nnn on line XXX.

Sorry - I missed this reply .. Investigating ..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Found a super spread sheet at ... www.whatdotheyknow.com .. in a request entitled "Bridges managed by Network Rail" ...
Assets_24.06.13 Bridges
This is brilliant. Also contains contact information.

 

[bramling]

Picked up a Quail Map for Southern & TfL. Some bridges get a mention. I'll check out the Sectional Appendices on the Network Rail website next as suggested. Here is an interesting bridge fact: None of the bridges on the Watercress Line are marked with their ELR which is AIW. However, if you visit bridges between Alresford and Winchester all the bridges I managed to get to do! ..Perhaps this is an ownership thing and the Mid Hants Railway removed the markings? Tempted to make a stencil and put things right
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has anyone seen a Quail map or any other map that shows all the bridges and their numbers?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry - I missed this reply .. Investigating ..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Found a super spread sheet at ... www.whatdotheyknow.com .. in a request entitled "Bridges managed by Network Rail" ...
Assets_24.06.13 Bridges
This is brilliant. Also contains contact information.

I've been meaning to ask this for a while, these ones not being listed in the above document ..

.. can anyone provide the numbers of the following bridges:

The A38 bridge at Filton over the Avonmouth line (AFR).
The A4036 bridge over OWW
The Station Road bridge at Churchdown over BAG2.

Bit of a long shot but it anyone could help it would be appreciated!

 

[gopub2pub]

I've been meaning to ask this for a while, these ones not being listed in the above document ..

.. can anyone provide the numbers of the following bridges:

The A38 bridge at Filton over the Avonmouth line (AFR).
The A4036 bridge over OWW
The Station Road bridge at Churchdown over BAG2.

Bit of a long shot but it anyone could help it would be appreciated!

Bramling, have you been to these bridges? Is it a case of no markings? Can you derive the numbers from adjacent bridges perhaps? Funny you should mention Filton and Churchdown. I used to cycle through Filton on the way to see my girlfriend in Redland in the 80s and I lived in Churchdown shortly after with that girlfriend (now wife) ..

 

[bramling]

Bramling, have you been to these bridges? Is it a case of no markings? Can you derive the numbers from adjacent bridges perhaps? Funny you should mention Filton and Churchdown. I used to cycle through Filton on the way to see my girlfriend in Redland in the 80s and I lived in Churchdown shortly after with that girlfriend (now wife) ..

Yes I've been there and there's nothing marked on them, and because the western region refers to bridges in the form of their mile & chainage it's not feasible to be able to work it out from the adjacent ones. The reason I would like to refer to them is because in all three cases they are the sites of disused stations which I have on a database!

 

[snowball]

Modern road-over-rail bridges are likely to be owned and maintained by the relevant highway authority, which would explain why they aren't in the spreadsheet of NR-managed bridges. However I suppose they might still have a number in the railway's bridge-numbering system.

Rail-over-road bridges, even if built for a new road scheme, would be owned and maintained by the railway.

 

[gopub2pub]

Yes I've been there and there's nothing marked on them, and because the western region refers to bridges in the form of their mile & chainage it's not feasible to be able to work it out from the adjacent ones. The reason I would like to refer to them is because in all three cases they are the sites of disused stations which I have on a database!

Why can't you work it out? ... Consider these bridges which are in order:

BAG2 87 56 87 1232 HATHERLEY LANE - OM: 5 16
BAG2 8860 88 1320 BADGEWORTH - OM: 4 12
BAG2 89 10 89 220 CHURCHDOWN - M5 under
BAG2 89 16 89 352 OM: 3 56, 89 17. No public ROW.

Lets say your bridge is between 89 10 and 89 16 then if you can find out how far it is from one of these then you have your bridge id don't you?

 

[Bushy]

Most canals have a simple numbering system; as they tend not to have many branches they didn't need anything more complex.

Canals preceded the railways and some canal engineers got involved in railways. The workforce (the Navvies or Navigators) also moved onto railways.

There are exceptions to the normal numbering system such as the Birmingham Canal Navigations which has no numbers. Canals also use suffixes when new bridges are built, A, B, C etc. and even AA where a new bridge is built between bridges that already have suffixes. If bridges are demolished you get gaps in numbering.

When canals companies merged the bridges were sometimes renumbered. For those that are interested in such things, when the Regent Canal Company bought the Grand Junction, Warwick & Napton and Warwick and Birmingham Canals to form the Grand Union Canal, they were so certain that they would buy the Oxford Canal between Braunston and Napton, that they allowed for the 17 bridges on that length of the Oxford when they renumbered the bridges on the GU. The Oxford did so well out of the tolls they charged GU boats for using that length of canal that they never sold up.

Regards

Bushy

 

[gopub2pub]

Canals preceded the railways and some canal engineers got involved in railways. The workforce (the Navvies or Navigators) also moved onto railways.

That is interesting Bushy. Funnily enough I was in The Ship in Bishops Sutton and was reading about a planned canal that would have passed Bishops Sutton on its way to London from Southampton. Then the Railway came and knocked that on the head. Understandably you can see how the Navvies jumped ship!

 

[150219]

Hi, I am looking for information relating to the referencing of railway bridges. I'm interested in bridges on new and old lines. Could someone point me in the right direction?
Thanks

I don't believe there is a public source for this information, the specific details are held as part of the responsible infrastructure maintainer's asset register. Quail diagrams and Sectional Appendices may contain references to individual structures, but they won't provide a comprehensive source of information.

There are a few details for disused structures that remain under the auspices of the BRB Property Board online, the listings of which contain structure numbers for some; but not all.

Most of the former Western Region structures are all referred to by their mileages, with a few exceptions.

As referenced elsewhere in this thread, the most likely public source of this information can be found on the structures themselves. A proportion of disused structures are still maintained, and are still marked with their respective ELR and structure numbers; and a few even have the line i.e. up/down direction marked on them too (even though there are no longer any running lines).

 

[Bushy]

Schedule of bridges maintained by NR:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bridges_managed_by_network_rail

 

[gopub2pub]

Schedule of bridges maintained by NR:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bridges_managed_by_network_rail

Yes Bushy. That's a great resource. I am using now as we "speak" to plan my cycling for tomorrow on PAA1 and PAA2

 

[Bushy]

I found it when looking for information on some 'side of line' bridges that were not side of line in Ashford, or more specifically, Newtown. Being built by South Eastern Railway for workers at the loco works, the bridges in the community of Newtown were railway assets and to this day have railway bridge numbers, although some are no longer managed by the railway.

Regards

Bushy