Brexit matters

[Gloster]

Aghata Christie would be disappointed:

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/...der-london-folkestone-leg-route-border-delays

Possibly more worrying is the comment that, ‘People are starting to drop the UK as a gateway to a European tour‘. Together with a recent item in the same paper that mentioned that Europeans are being put off from visiting due to the requirement to have a passport (as opposed to an ID Card), this is not a situation that a country that regards heritage and tourism as important wants to be in.

 

[AM9]

Possibly more worrying is the comment that, ‘People are starting to drop the UK as a gateway to a European tour‘. Together with a recent item in the same paper that mentioned that Europeans are being put off from visiting due to the requirement to have a passport (as opposed to an ID Card), this is not a situation that a country that regards heritage and tourism as important wants to be in.

Unless its government is only interested in visitors whose native language is a version of English, e.g. US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc.. All of those would have passports to travel to Europe anyway.

 

[Gloster]

Unless its government is only interested in visitors whose native language is a version of English, e.g. US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc.. All of those would have passports to travel to Europe anyway.

The article in today’s Grauniad suggests that it is visitors from those countries (and others), America and Japan are mentioned, who are being put off. Even if this country becomes very accommodating to visitors from English (sort of) speaking countries, well the white ones, anyway, they have still got to negotiate the border control obstacle course if they want to include it with a trip to other parts of Europe.

 

[jon0844]

wE doNt nEEd toURisTs anYway. ThEy jUst MaKE shoPs aNd rEStAUranTs busY!

I'm sure the Telegraph is working on spinning it like this is a win.

 

[AM9]

The article in today’s Grauniad suggests that it is visitors from those countries (and others), America and Japan are mentioned, who are being put off. Even if this country becomes very accommodating to visitors from English (sort of) speaking countries, well the white ones, anyway, they have still got to negotiate the border control obstacle course if they want to include it with a trip to other parts of Europe.

I wouldn't suggest that even this Government is conciously trying to craft policies that do favour visitors from those countries but the more racially motivated elements of such a right wing administration would probably see the impact as a worthwhile bonus.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you are arguing that asylum seekers should have the right to just go to any country of their choice where they have relatives and claim asylum there, then you are saying that they should have additional rights that no-one else has, and which are clearly not necessary in order to give them asylum/safety. I think that would require some justification.

But claim does not equal granted. I'm not sure why it's so objectionable that they should be able to seek to claim asylum somewhere that they think is best for them to do so for whatever combination of reasons. If whilst assessing their claim it turns out that they're, in fact, not genuine and have just tried to basically jump the queue then deport them ASAP (allowing for any appeals). Also we should surely want asylum seekers to spread out a bit. It seems extremely unworkable for the neighbouring countries to whatever unstable country is collapsing this week (seemingly it's Sudan's turn today) to have to deal with all the refugees from that place just because they have the, er, misfortune (I guess it's a misfortune in this case being a safe country? ) of being the closest safe country. Of course, they do tend to take the lion's share as, funnily enough, most asylum seekers actually want to go home once it's safe to do so therefore staying close makes sense. Ukraine being a good current example of that effect of course.

Equally asylum seekers are, of course, disadvantaged compared to someone who might want to move to Outer-Faraway-Land in a number of different ways. Because it's easier to type than Outer-Faraway-Land )) I'm going to go with Canada instead. But if I wanted to move, as an economic migrant, from the UK to Canada because I decide I'll have better prospects there then, by virtue of living in a safe and stable country, I can take my time to gather the various documents that I will need, to review the criteria to apply for whatever visa I need, take advice on what I need to do, prepare my application, go to the embassy several hours away to undergo whatever interviews or other hoops might be required before finally getting my visa. The likelihood that an asylum seeker is going to be able to do that is negligible. Just because they've had to flee why should they be confined to the first safe country? Just because they couldn't sit tight and jump through all the required hoops?

We're lucky that we don't have to worry about fleeing the UK but if we lived in an alternate universe where Corbyn had won in 2019 and brought about a second Bolshevik Revolution and bands of nouveau-Cheka were now roaming the streets purging counter revolutionaries (I think that's what the Daily Mail said would happen? ) should we only be able to flee to Ireland, France and Belgium? They're all the closest safe countries. But why couldn't I seek asylum in Germany or Austria where I at least speak a few words of the language (C at GCSE German and a two year streak on Duolingo!)? Or Australia where I have relatives plus the benefits of a shared language and culture?

 

[brad465]

wE doNt nEEd toURisTs anYway. ThEy jUst MaKE shoPs aNd rEStAUranTs busY!

I'm sure the Telegraph is working on spinning it like this is a win.

Or they'll try and claim it will reduce murder rates.

 

[Gloster]

Or they'll try and claim it will reduce murder rates.

Presumably by reducing the number of rich tourists who are likely to be attacked.

 

[class ep-09]

Thank you brexit …

‘We have lost a lot of control’: UK at risk of food fraud, safety expert warns

Despite industry improvements since the 2013 horsemeat scandal, there has been an increase in cross-border food safety and intelligence issues post-Brexit

www.theguardian.com

Brexit caps years of Tory failure Starmer fears to oppose | William Keegan

Attacks on Rishi Sunak are pointless if Labour is going to let the crowning disaster of Tory government pass without comment

www.theguardian.com

 

[jon0844]

We know from previous random checks that dodgy food was/is being imported. Clearly the Government knows, but if there is another scandal it is just as likely they're going to play it down or try and deny any responsibility - because to do otherwise would acknowledge our lack of controls.

It won't just be food either. Think counterfeit goods, think uncertified products (like mobility devices with potentially dangerous batteries) and more.

And of course there's the newly discovered scam where foreign companies are collecting the VAT on our orders (so customs doesn't need to do it) but never passing it on to HMRC. Great profit for the sellers and a major loss to us, the taxpayer.

 

[class ep-09]

We know from previous random checks that dodgy food was/is being imported. Clearly the Government knows, but if there is another scandal it is just as likely they're going to play it down or try and deny any responsibility - because to do otherwise would acknowledge our lack of controls.

It won't just be food either. Think counterfeit goods, think uncertified products (like mobility devices with potentially dangerous batteries) and more.

And of course there's the newly discovered scam where foreign companies are collecting the VAT on our orders (so customs doesn't need to do it) but never passing it on to HMRC. Great profit for the sellers and a major loss to us, the taxpayer.

But , but , but …. we have taken back control innit ?

Sarcasm

 

[AM9]

Not many posts here attempting to defend Brexit or even come out with excuses. It must be pretty embarassing admitting that despite all the warnings of difficulties described here before the referendum was held, that oneself voted without even considering their consequences.

 

[dangie]

We know from previous random checks that dodgy food was/is being imported….

I wonder sometimes how many don’t worry too much about this. As an example an ex-work colleague of mine, a heavy smoker, used to frequently buy cheap cigarettes from ‘dodgy’ sources. I asked him why he did it, you don’t know what’s in them. He answered that he didn’t worry too much about that, they were cheap. Unfortunately he’s now no longer with us.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure the next big scandal will be vape juices (or whatever they're called) as there must be loads of unapproved, untested and uncertified stuff being imported illegally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2023 ==

Not many posts here attempting to defend Brexit or even come out with excuses. It must be pretty embarassing admitting that despite all the warnings of difficulties described here before the referendum was held, that oneself voted without even considering their consequences.

They're too busy posting in the Brexit benefits thread to comment here. I'd link to it, but I can't seem to find it right now. Must be a forum issue.

 

[najaB]

In a normal visa application, you generally pay for the visa application and you do not ask for or get any support from the host country while you are applying (or in most cases, after you apply).

And, if we had a functioning immigration system, they wouldn't need to be supported for more than a few weeks when making an asylum claim either.

(Btw.... not really relevant to the points we are debating, but as a pedantic point: it's actually very common for visa applications to the UK to be made from within the UK: That'll be the case whenever a person was previously granted residency for a fixed period and then needs to apply for another visa at the end of that period - which I believe is the case for basically all non-asylum residency routes)

That initial visa application (e.g. the student visa) would have been made outside the country.

 

[AM9]

I am sure the next big scandal will be vape juices (or whatever they're called) as there must be loads of unapproved, untested and uncertified stuff being imported illegally.

So does that give a sense to euphoria to latter day brexit suckers?

 

[ainsworth74]

Slightly entertaining conclusion from some polling that more people believe the earth is flat and in chemtrails than Brexit is going very well:

A majority of British people believe Brexit is going badly and would like to rejoin the EU. That’s the clear evidence from multiple recent opinion polls.

In fact so badly is it now going, that according to one poll published this week, just two per cent (2%) of voters still believe that Brexit is going “very well”.

For context that means more voters now believe the Earth is flat (3%), or the population is being secretly controlled by the dispersal of ‘chemtrails’ (4%) than believe that the Brexit project is fully going to plan.

More Brits Believe the Earth is Flat than Think Brexit is Going Very Well

Hardcore Brexiteers are becoming an increasingly endangered minority, but you wouldn’t know it from listening to our major political parties and news organisations

adambienkov.substack.com

 

[najaB]

I really wouldn't be surprised if there was overlap in those three groups!

 

[class ep-09]

I really wouldn't be surprised if there was overlap in those three groups!

That and that Trump won 2nd term .

 

[edwin_m]

I really wouldn't be surprised if there was overlap in those three groups!

Nah. If the earth is flat, how can we do all this amazing trade with the other side of it?

 

[najaB]

Nah. If the earth is flat, how can we do all this amazing trade with the other side of it?

By being very careful as you go over the edge...

 

[Howardh]

Just returned from the Isle of Man to Manchester. Interesting that, as the IoM takes flights from Belfast and Dublin, with the minimum of checks (and not immigration checks) there's a big sign in arrivals for "those requiring Visas to enter the Isle of Man and/or UK, please make yourself known to an Immigration Official"

(a) I couldn't see any.

(b) We (the UK) are basically making entry from Ireland an "honesty box" - I'm sure someone from the EU/EEA who is perfectly entitled to be in Ireland but who isn't supposed to be here will simply slip through with the rest of us, unknown to the authorities.

Some "strengthening our borders".

 

[najaB]

Some "strengthening our borders".

Well, given that we still don't do effective checks/recording of people when they leave the UK is that much of a surprise?

 

[jon0844]

It's like talking about the boats is a great distraction from the actual issues with our porous, sponge-like, border.

 

[Howardh]

It's like talking about the boats is a great distraction from the actual issues with our porous, sponge-like, border.

I wouldn't mind, but while EU's can easily walk in to the UK without proper documentation and unbeknown to the authorities, it certainly doesn't work the other way. We might be able to get to the Republic unchallenged, part of the CTA, but from then on we need all sorts of nonsense now even to have just a day out in Europe.

 

[jon0844]

I wouldn't mind, but while EU's can easily walk in to the UK without proper documentation and unbeknown to the authorities, it certainly doesn't work the other way. We might be able to get to the Republic unchallenged, part of the CTA, but from then on we need all sorts of nonsense now even to have just a day out in Europe.

BuT wHy WouLd wE wANt to LEave tHIs cOUNtry whEn wE hAVe eVERythiNG wE neEd?

 

[Howardh]

Finally some good Brexit news, things to stay as they are for a wee while longer?? Although we currently have to have our passports stamped, time-consuming enough, we were about to be faced by providing biometrics and clearing immigration with fingerprints and eye-scans. About to be put back??

Thing is though, if countries rely on your iris and fingerprint to allow you through, then there's no requirement for the "paper" passport, as your biometrics would be your ID. Unless - of course - they fail!!

Anyhow back to the original message; I'm now beginning to wonder if the EU will drop the immigration requirements for us UK's on the grounds that it would clog up their airports, Eurostar and Calais etc and they would be far better concentrating on immigration checks from the rest of the world - in other words, have a word with the UK government and try some reciprocity so all you need, either way, is a visa to work or reside; the rest (travellers) simply waved through with your passport - as in the good old days? Has either side anything to lose by sitting down and acting like adults?? Be a wonderflu bonus for Eurostar and Dover!!

Boost for British travellers as EU delays post-Brexit border checks

Exclusive: Planned fingerprint and facial biometric checks will be delayed until ‘after Paris Olympics’

www.independent.co.uk

British travellers entering the EU will not be required to have their fingerprints and facial biometrics taken until 2024 at the earliest as post-Brexit checks are pushed back.

Europe’s delayed entry/exit system (EES) was expected to take effect in 2021 and is currently due to commence in November 2023. But The Independent has learnt that the electronic border scheme will not now go ahead this year because the database on which it depends will not be ready in time.


A formal announcement is expected in June.

Several EU members have expressed alarm at the extra time the new arrival processes will involve, with the Slovenian government warning: “It takes up to four times longer to do the new process.”


The earliest possible date for the checks to be brought in is now believed to be May 2024, but that option is meeting stiff opposition from Paris, which is hosting the summer Olympics from 26 July to 11 August next year.

 

[edwin_m]

Finally some good Brexit news, things to stay as they are for a wee while longer??

More correctly the postponement of more bad Brexit news.

Having been multiple times in and out of a country that photographs faces and takes fingerprints, I can tell you it takes good deal longer than stamping a passport. And that's at an airport - processing everyone on a car or coach would be far worse.

 

[Howardh]

More correctly the postponement of more bad Brexit news.

Having been multiple times in and out of a country that photographs faces and takes fingerprints, I can tell you it takes good deal longer than stamping a passport. And that's at an airport - processing everyone on a car or coach would be far worse.

That's what I was trying to say!!

The actual expense could well cripple the EU; either as a whole or individual countries. Portugal isn't the richest, neither is Malta, are they paying or does the EU pay on their behalf? If the whole episode is abandoned, then how much is down the drain? It's no good the UK giggling, we are implimenting our own system, although I don't know if that entails biometrics.

 

[class ep-09]

Anyhow back to the original message; I'm now beginning to wonder if the EU will drop the immigration requirements for us UK's on the grounds that it would clog up their airports, Eurostar and Calais etc and they would be far better concentrating on immigration checks from the rest of the world - in other words, have a word with the UK government and try some reciprocity so all you need, either way, is a visa to work or reside; the rest (travellers) simply waved through with your passport - as in the good old days? Has either side anything to lose by sitting down and acting like adults?? Be a wonderflu bonus for Eurostar and Dover!!

Sounds like FoM to me .

We should only allow desirables to come without checks not some EU nationals…

It is a joke of course only to illustrate stupidity of brexit .