Brexit matters

[najaB]

This is just a way of justifying colonialism really. “We put a lot of British people on this land by force, now we have done an opinion poll and they like being governed by Britain. That’s democracy.”

By the same token, nobody who is living in Gibraltar today has even great grandparents who were alive when Britain captured it from Spain. So the wishes of the people who have lived there their whole lives have to take precedence over historic rights.

 

[Cloud Strife]

This is a perfectly valid point and nobody should listen to Spain when it moans about former colonies!

There is one difference, however. Ceuta and Melilla are integral parts of Spain, constituted as autonomous cities. They are outside Schengen and the EU VAT area, but they still work entirely within Spain, just like other autonomous communities.

Previously, they were part of the Province of Cadiz and (I think) Malaga.

Spain (correctly) points out that Gibraltar is still a colony and not a part of the UK.

 

[E27007]

This is just a way of justifying colonialism really. “We put a lot of British people on this land by force, now we have done an opinion poll and they like being governed by Britain. That’s democracy.”

This is a perfectly valid point and nobody should listen to Spain when it moans about former colonies!

We should remember that Spain under General Franco was far from being a democracy, being run as a repressive dictatorship, after the death of Franco in the mid 1970s, it would take several years for Spain to move towards a democracy, Gibraltar had to be kept out of the hands of dictators such as Franco

 

[duncanp]

We should remember that Spain under General Franco was far from being a democracy, being run as a repressive dictatorship, after the death of Franco in the mid 1970s, it was years for Spain to adjust to a democratic style, Gibraltar had to be kept out of the hands of dictators such as Franco

Rather like the Falkland Islands and Argentina.

The military government in Argentina, with its appalling record on human rights, was overthrown as a direct result of their defeat in the 1982 war, something which a lot of people seem to forget.

 

[Howardh]

That majority is decreasing and in not many years there could be a majority for joining the Republic, at which point a referendum is required under the Good Friday Agreement. The way the UK government has treated Northern Ireland during Brexit only serves to accelerate that process.

Therefore one assumes when in GB/UK a majority are in favour of either joining the single market or EU, we shall have that referendum on rejoining?

As for the second point, the DUP (which propped up the Tory government for some time) actively campaigned for Brexit, yet as you allude to, the end product could be the exact opposite of their wishes, theat is the re-unification of Ireland. I can't see a way of keeping the RoI/UK border invisible without a border between NI and GB thus effectively splitting the UK up.

This point was made by yours truly to my MP prior to the vote in a public meeting.

That aside, if there was that NI/GB border for both goods and immigration, Northern Ireland could effectively rejoin the EU (although more likely the EEA via EFTA possibly)! Would that negate the need to vote to reunify?

 

[Falcon1200]

I can't see a way of keeping the RoI/UK border invisible without a border between NI and GB thus effectively splitting the UK up.

There is a way, the whole island of Ireland could be treated for customs and border purposes as part of the UK instead of the EU, but I doubt that would be acceptable to the Irish! But then splitting Northern Ireland from the UK is not acceptable to many either.

 

[najaB]

There is a way, the whole island of Ireland could be treated for customs and border purposes as part of the UK instead of the EU, but I doubt that would be acceptable to the Irish!

And there's no reason why they should accept it!

 

[E27007]

Millions migrated from Europe to the US, particularly around the turn of the 19th Century. I'm not sure today compares with that movement to be honest!

The US at that time an underdeveloped country with vast untapped potential. Not the same as EU- Britain with only the infrastructure capacity to support a population of X millions,yet a population of Y millions, and due to FoM, a rapid increase in population to Y + 3 millions , leading to hardship and resentment as each slice of infrastructure "cake" per capita shrank

 

[Howardh]

There is a way, the whole island of Ireland could be treated for customs and border purposes as part of the UK instead of the EU, but I doubt that would be acceptable to the Irish! But then splitting Northern Ireland from the UK is not acceptable to many either.

It's a way out but zero chance of it happening, as that would mean Ireland losing freedom of movement of goods, services, people etc between them and the EU.

If NI ever became separated from GB either due to an Irish Sea border, or reunification, where do all those who are Unionists and voted for Brexit stand? After all, they won, and they would end up losing? Would make the whole point of the referendum a bit crazy, 349,442 voted to leave, they won, and they end up remaining? A case for the courts if there ever was one!

 

[Spamcan81]

It's a way out but zero chance of it happening, as that would mean Ireland losing freedom of movement of goods, services, people etc between them and the EU.

If NI ever became separated from GB either due to an Irish Sea border, or reunification, where do all those who are Unionists and voted for Brexit stand? After all, they won, and they would end up losing? Would make the whole point of the referendum a bit crazy, 349,442 voted to leave, they won, and they end up remaining? A case for the courts if there ever was one!

Didn't NI vote "remain" as a whole though?

 

[AM9]

It's a way out but zero chance of it happening, as that would mean Ireland losing freedom of movement of goods, services, people etc between them and the EU.

If NI ever became separated from GB either due to an Irish Sea border, or reunification, where do all those who are Unionists and voted for Brexit stand?

Airdrie?

 

[Doppelganger]

If NI ever became separated from GB either due to an Irish Sea border, or reunification, where do all those who are Unionists and voted for Brexit stand?

NI is separated from GB though.

GB is Great Britain, the largest Island within the British (a contentious term itself) Isles.

NI is on the Island of Ireland and is separated from GB by an Irish sea border as NI remains within the Single Market...

 

[Howardh]

Didn't NI vote "remain" as a whole though?

They did, and London voted remain, but we've all had to leave. If NI can remain in the EU, why can't London? Brighton?? The only difference is a stretch of water!!

 

[edwin_m]

Therefore one assumes when in GB/UK a majority are in favour of either joining the single market or EU, we shall have that referendum on rejoining?

Not necessarily. From autumn 2017 nearly every opinion poll showed a majority against Brexit, but it still happened. A referendum on Irish unification is written into an international treaty, though there's some wriggle room in exactly when it is triggered.

 

[Howardh]

Not necessarily. From autumn 2017 nearly every opinion poll showed a majority against Brexit, but it still happened. A referendum on Irish unification is written into an international treaty, though there's some wriggle room in exactly when it is triggered.

Which one? The Good Friday Agreement (?) - although I don't think that's an international treaty?

 

[duncanp]

Not necessarily. From autumn 2017 nearly every opinion poll showed a majority against Brexit, but it still happened. A referendum on Irish unification is written into an international treaty, though there's some wriggle room in exactly when it is triggered.

There is also some "wiggle room" on IF a border poll is called, not just when. So it is by no means inevitable that one will be triggered.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/sites/constitution_unit/files/jon_tonge_-_16_jan_20.pdf

The Northern Ireland Act 1998, which gave effect to the Good Friday Agreement, states that a poll will be called by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland “if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the UK and form part of a united Ireland”

And according to recent opinion polls, voters in Northern Ireland would vote decisively against a United Ireland, even though they might be in favour of a poll being held.

Northern Ireland rejects Irish unity by large margin, poll shows

Majorities north and south in favour of Border polls, according to new research project

www.irishtimes.com

Northern Ireland rejects Irish unity by large margin, poll shows​

Majorities north and south in favour of Border polls, according to new research project​

Northern Ireland would vote decisively against a united Ireland if there was a Border poll, according to an Ipsos opinion poll for a new research project into North-South relations and political views on the future of the island.

The poll shows almost twice as many voters who expressed a preference want to remain in the United Kingdom.

In the Republic, however, there is a majority of more than four to one in favour of unity, according to a simultaneous and identical poll.

Majorities in both jurisdictions believe that referendums on the unity question should be held, with voters in the Republic more likely to favour a vote in the next five years, while a majority of voters in the North want a Border poll in the next 10 years.

 

[JamesT]

Which one? The Good Friday Agreement (?) - although I don't think that's an international treaty?

The Good Friday Agreement consists of two treaties. One between the Government of the UK and the Government of the Republic of Ireland, and another with both of those plus the major NI political parties. The involvement of the two governments makes it international.

 

[Annetts key]

There is a way, the whole island of Ireland could be treated for customs and border purposes as part of the UK instead of the EU, but I doubt that would be acceptable to the Irish! But then splitting Northern Ireland from the UK is not acceptable to many either.

They did, and London voted remain, but we've all had to leave. If NI can remain in the EU, why can't London? Brighton?? The only difference is a stretch of water!!

So maybe what should have happened, is that the United Kingdom split itself into two. With those parts (decided via county or unitary district/unitary authorities areas) that voted to stay in the E.U. staying as they were, and those parts voted that voted to leave forming a separate country.

As N.I. voted to stay in the E.U., that’s one less problem. Same for Scotland.

It would however make London rather interesting though…

 

[AM9]

So maybe what should have happened, is that the United Kingdom split itself into two. With those parts (decided via county or unitary district/unitary authorities areas) that voted to stay in the E.U. staying as they were, and those parts voted that voted to leave forming a separate country.

As N.I. voted to stay in the E.U., that’s one less problem. Same for Scotland.

It would however make London rather interesting though…

Nor really, London is effectively a county/unitary authority, and taken across the geographical area that it comprises, was clearly a remainer voting area. It also is more than self sufficient financially to deal with the EU direct.

 

[duncanp]

So maybe what should have happened, is that the United Kingdom split itself into two. With those parts (decided via county or unitary district/unitary authorities areas) that voted to stay in the E.U. staying as they were, and those parts voted that voted to leave forming a separate country.

What about if there is ever a referendum on Irish unity?

Should those areas of Northern Ireland (as defined by council area) who vote to remain part of the UK be allowed to stay as part of the UK, whilst those who wish to join the republic be allowed to do so.

At the time of the Brexit referendum, Nicola Sturgeon was quoted as saying that Brexit should only be allowed to go ahead if there was a majority for it in all home nations.

I think we all know what her attitude would be if the same principle was applied to any future Scottish independence referendum. (Namely that there has to be a majority in favour in all council areas)

 

[Howardh]

Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules​

Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules

About 350 out of 900 seats normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels

www.theguardian.com

Peak time Eurostar trains are daily forced to run across the Channel with hundreds of empty seats because border police cannot process passports quick enough.

About 350 out of 900 seats are normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels despite “huge demand” for the greenest form of international travel, Eurostar bosses said.


British passports have to be stamped separately, even for travellers who can go through electronic gates, since Brexit. Passengers are now told to arrive up to 90 minutes before some departures but bottlenecks at stations still mean that they cannot all be processed in time, said the chief executive, Gwendoline Cazenave.

This stamping of passports UK/EU, stay time limits, etc, is just bonkers. Asking both sides, just what good is it doing to cross-border travel and trade?? Both need to sit down and sort this out and go back to pre-EEC days as alluded to earlier.

 

[Annetts key]

Nor really, London is effectively a county/unitary authority, and taken across the geographical area that it comprises, was clearly a remainer voting area. It also is more than self sufficient financially to deal with the EU direct.

I was thinking more along the lines of the number of ‘border crossings’ needed

 

[najaB]

Both need to sit down and sort this out and go back to pre-EEC days as alluded to earlier.

The ball is very much in our (the UK's) court as the EU are simply applying the same rules that they apply to any other third-party country which hasn't agreed a special arrangement.

 

[Bald Rick]

The US at that time an underdeveloped country with vast untapped potential.

Arguably it’s heading that way again.

 

[duncanp]

Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules​

Eurostar trains forced to run with empty seats due to Brexit passport rules

About 350 out of 900 seats normally left unsold on the first services between London, Paris and Brussels

www.theguardian.com

This stamping of passports UK/EU, stay time limits, etc, is just bonkers. Asking both sides, just what good is it doing to cross-border travel and trade?? Both need to sit down and sort this out and go back to pre-EEC days as alluded to earlier.

Indeed with ETIAS it should be possible to do away with manually stamping passports, as all entries and exits to and from the Schengen area would be recorded, and available to see when the passport is scanned.

Advance Passenger Information (API) would also help, as the authorities would be able to see who is planning to come to the Schengen area, and anyone with a suspicious travel history, or who has overstayed in the past, could either be interrogated more thoroughly, or denied entry outright.

Meanwhile the 99% of travellers who are OK to travel could just pass through the e-passport gates in a matter of seconds.

This is what happens with the ESTA system for travelling to and from the United States. The United States does not stamp passports on exit, but when you check in for a flight from the US to the UK your exit from the United States is recorded, and there is a website somewhere where you can look your travel history up.

I can't help but think that part of the problem is deliberate under resourcing of French passport control at St Pancras, and/or deliberately slow processing of passports, as a means of "punishing" the UK for Brexit. The former French Prime Minister, Jean Castex, is on record as saying this.

 

[AM9]

I was thinking more along the lines of the number of ‘border crossings’ needed

I think there would be a mutual benefit of easing passage through the 'crossing' as many would be 'customers/employees' of businesses in the London state, and ''leisure travellers/breadwinners' of the provinces. However, by then London might ber minded to restrict 'foreign' vehicles from importing their pollution.

 

[duncanp]

I think there would be a mutual benefit of easing passage through the 'crossing' as many would be 'customers/employees' of businesses in the London state, and ''leisure travellers/breadwinners' of the provinces. However, by then London might ber minded to restrict 'foreign' vehicles from importing their pollution.

Reminds me of the film Passport to Pimlico, where the fictional French enclave of Burgundy in London tried to enforce passport control on a District Line train passing through their territory.

Schengen passport controls on the Metropolitan and Central lines?

 

[nlogax]

and there is a website somewhere where you can look your travel history up.

Yes, it's at https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/ . Doesn't seem to work for me beyond my last visit...anyone else? I'm expecting to see multiple trips.

 

[duncanp]

Yes, it's at https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/ . Doesn't seem to work for me beyond my last visit...anyone else? I'm expecting to see multiple trips.

I just looked up my record and it has my trips from 2015 and 2018, but not in 2000 and 2003.

The note on the website says

I-94 travel history includes up to 100 arrivals and departures spanning the last ten years

The thing is, when I visited in 2015 I had a different passport to the one I used in 2018, so even though I put in my current passport number to retrieve the data, it still records the trip using my previous passport.

It is important to make sure that your exit from the United States is properly recorded, otherwise you could get accused of overstaying your Visa/ESTA.

 

[najaB]

It looks like we've finally signed on the line to join the CPTPP, which the Government has assured us will go a long way in mitigating the impact of losing free access to the EU single market.

The UK has signed a deal to join a trade pact with 11 Asia and Pacific nations, three years after it officially left the European Union.

Joining the group will boost UK exports by cutting tariffs on goods such as cheese, cars, chocolate, machinery, gin and whisky, the government said.

However, the government's own estimates show being in the bloc will only add 0.08% to the size of the UK's economy.

UK-Asia trade deal to boost UK economy by 0.08%

The bloc includes nations such as Japan and Australia, but the UK's economy will only get a small boost.

www.bbc.co.uk