Brexit matters

[E27007]

The UK did. People from the EU could not access the welfare system unless they are working, or treated as working (e.g. they were working, got pregnant, and will return to work). The "right to reside" for benefit entitlement was clearly defined.

The rules referred to meaningful employment, though. So someone in full employment but without a permanent home wouldn't necessarily be in breach of the rules, as the courts found. And it's perfectly possible that a minimum wage job in London would be insufficient to rent somewhere on a long-term basis.

"Meaningful employment" the key to access the welfare system is the possession of a National Insurance number.
I think I saw a TV documentary, the newly arrived person spent a few hours collecting scrap metal, weighed-in the scrap at a scrapyard for money leaving with cash and with a receipt, with the receipt as evidence the person registered as a scrap-metal collector and lo and behold issued with the coveted National Insurance number, I think we can guess the rest!

 

[Doppelganger]

"Meaningful employment" the key to access the welfare system is the possession of a National Insurance number.
I think I saw a TV documentary, the newly arrived person spent a few hours collecting scrap metal, weighed-in the scrap at a scrapyard for money leaving with cash and with a receipt, with the receipt as evidence the person registered as a scrap-metal collector and lo and behold issued with the coveted National Insurance number, I think we can guess the rest!

This happened how often?

The evil immigrant once again steals from the hard working native!

There were, and are, far worse abuses of taxpayer money, but the Mail and Express have managed to shift that blame so well that instead of addressing the real causes of the UK's issues (clue, it starts with a C and has a T in it, no not that word, they are also known as Stories, but without the S), they have been attributed to the wrong group!

The UK can no longer blame the EU for its ills, but I can see the trend continues and has been ingrained within many in society.

 

[Ediswan]

I think I saw a TV documentary, the newly arrived person spent a few hours collecting scrap metal, weighed-in the scrap at a scrapyard for money leaving with cash and with a receipt, with the receipt as evidence the person registered as a scrap-metal collector and lo and behold issued with the coveted National Insurance number, I think we can guess the rest!

It has been illegal to pay cash for scrap metal since December 2012. It may still happen, but getting a receipt seems unlikely.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This happened how often?

The evil immigrant once again steals from the hard working native!

There were, and are, far worse abuses of taxpayer money, but the Mail and Express have managed to shift that blame so well that instead of addressing the real causes of the UK's issues (clue, it starts with a C and has a T in it, no not that word, they are also known as Stories, but without the S), they have been attributed to the wrong group!

The UK can no longer blame the EU for its ills, but I can see the trend continues and has been ingrained within many in society.

Big proviso here... we don't have any links so we don't know for sure how true this particular story is. BUT as a more general point... when people abuse the system in order to get some benefit that is unethical or undeserved, surely the appropriate thing to to is to condemn the abuse and seek to find ways to prevent other people from doing the same thing. It doesn't seem right to condemn the messenger and make out that we shouldn't be reporting what happened. I get that, when it comes to things like this, papers like the Mail and the Express probably do exaggerate the extent of the problem and that's bad. But if your reaction when you see a report of someone abusing the system is to just push it under the carpet and complain about the news sources that have reported the story, that would seem to be just as bad.

 

[The Ham]

Big proviso here... we don't have any links so we don't know for sure how true this particular story is. BUT as a more general point... when people abuse the system in order to get some benefit that is unethical or undeserved, surely the appropriate thing to to is to condemn the abuse and seek to find ways to prevent other people from doing the same thing. It doesn't seem right to condemn the messenger and make out that we shouldn't be reporting what happened. I get that, when it comes to things like this, papers like the Mail and the Express probably do exaggerate the extent of the problem and that's bad. But if your reaction when you see a report of someone abusing the system is to just push it under the carpet and complain about the news sources that have reported the story, that would seem to be just as bad.

Whilst it's true that it shouldn't be brushed under the carpet, the reaction that it's the fault of the person who's found the loophole is also misplaced.

If you were to look into it there were probably (when it was a cash in hand process) British people claiming benefits and collecting scrap metal to boost their income using the same loophole.

Probably little was done as the numbers were low and not really worth the effort in enforcement.

The wider population probably only got wind of it in large enough numbers when it was imminents doing it, as there would have been enough of a "market" for it to sell papers.

Let's look at it from another (potential) story, in the US there's a school shooting, it makes state news, maybe national news, rarely international news. The American response "thoughts and prayers". Now if that was someone who had only just entered the US, had brought a gun and then went to a school and started shooting, the response would likely be fairly different. Whilst there wouldn't be a strict restriction on funds like we have here, there would likely be some brought in fairly quickly.

Probably the need for ID, potentially even the need for some basic background check.

The reason for the likely change, an immigrant did it. In reality they (like any other person) were within the current rules and it's only the national anger at some "other" (i.e. not part of their tribe) doing it which makes the difference.

It's the same way that there's outrage if (say) the Tories put something forwards (from the left), however if that policy was adopted by Labour (without widespread understanding it started as a Tory policy) it's then seen as a good thing (any two parties/political views would have broadly the same outcome).

 

[Tetchytyke]

"Meaningful employment" the key to access the welfare system is the possession of a National Insurance number.

Nope. Not even slightly. Try again.

(Please be aware welfare benefits advice was literally my job from 2008 to 2020).

You need a NINO to get benefits, but possession of a NINO doesn't give you entitlement to benefits.

I have no idea about the example you quoted, but it's fair to say the DWP do make plenty of errors. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a Decision Maker did wrongly decide a receipt evidenced employment. I've seen plenty of mental decisions from the DWP, and not always in favour of the DWP. But the problem here is poor quality decision making at the DWP (which is largely a result of staff cuts and flatlined wages- the competent people leave), not immigration.

 

[Annetts key]

It should be noted that cash in hand payments at scrap metal dealers was I believe, only stopped due to the amount of stolen metal being sold. Such as lead from the roofs of buildings (especially churches and other historic buildings) and copper cables from the railways and electricity distribution systems.

But this is all off topic, as it’s nothing to do with brexit.

 

[E27007]

Nope. Not even slightly. Try again.

(Please be aware welfare benefits advice was literally my job from 2008 to 2020).

You need a NINO to get benefits, but possession of a NINO doesn't give you entitlement to benefits.

I have no idea about the example you quoted, but it's fair to say the DWP do make plenty of errors. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if a Decision Maker did wrongly decide a receipt evidenced employment. I've seen plenty of mental decisions from the DWP, and not always in favour of the DWP. But the problem here is poor quality decision making at the DWP (which is largely a result of staff cuts and flatlined wages- the competent people leave), not immigration.

I cannot find a video of the documentary on YouTube,
The man certainly received benefits, he was both jovial, truly excited and full of praise for Britain , "your country is wonderful".
He was paid a benefit for a young son he brought along to Britain, and then he learned he could have benefits for his family still living in his homeland (which was one of the poorer EU members, probably Bulgaria) , and the benefits paid at the UK rate irrespective of their abode,does this date the documentary, I think the benefits paid to children abroad policy has been before the courts.
i wonder where the man and family are today, probably in employment as a minicab driver or security guard

 

[jon0844]

i wonder where the man and family are today, probably in employment as a minicab driver or security guard

I do hope so, given these are two jobs where it's often quite hard to get native British/English people to do those jobs.

I'd be just as happy to hear that they're working in a restaurant, hotel or hospital.

 

[najaB]

The man certainly received benefits, he was both jovial, truly excited and full of praise for Britain , "your country is wonderful".

That may well have happened, but it wasn't in accordance with the rules. A single receipt for the sale of scrap metal is not proof of meaningful employment.

 

[E27007]

That may well have happened, but it wasn't in accordance with the rules. A single receipt for the sale of scrap metal is not proof of meaningful employment.

In general terms what exactly were the rules used by the DWP for "meaningful employment" as applied to our chappie from Bulgaria who entered Britain having acquired EU freedom of movement to Britain?

 

[najaB]

In general terms what exactly were the rules used by the DWP for "meaningful employment" as applied to our chappie from Bulgaria who entered Britain having acquired EU freedom of movement to Britain?

Meaningful employment generally meant, in the case of an employee, working 20 hours a week or more and in all cases earning enough to support yourself without recourse to public funds and being able to to prove that this was an ongoing arrangement (e.g. a signed contract of employment).

 

[E27007]

Meaningful employment generally meant, in the case of an employee, working 20 hours a week or more and in all cases earning enough to support yourself without recourse to public funds and being able to to prove that this was an ongoing arrangement (e.g. a signed contract of employment).

That describes the rules for an employee. What were the rules for a self-employed worker? What were the rules for casual agency-based workers, and for those with zero-hour contracts?

 

[najaB]

What were the rules for a self-employed worker? What were the rules for casual workers, and for those with zero-hour contracts?

For the self-employed they would need to show that they had regular income, and for zero-hour contracts they would need to show that they were regularly working 20+ hours (by way of payslips).

 

[dosxuk]

Nigel Farage is complaining that young people are leaving the UK for Italy and Portgual.

There is now an exodus of young, talented people to Italy and Portugal. The 1970s brain drain is back. Tory party is totally useless.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1616822903462367233

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nigel Farage is complaining that young people are leaving the UK for Italy and Portgual.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1616822903462367233

Will he realise, I wonder, why this is?

 

[nlogax]

Nigel Farage is complaining that young people are leaving the UK for Italy and Portgual.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1616822903462367233

We're now firmly in the 'these are the inevitable outcomes of what you encouraged people to vote for, now suck up and deal' stage. It will take an absolutely pitiful lack of growth, a surge in talent drain and the dawning realisation that our trading arrangements with the EU are utterly stymied by paperwork, administration and UK gov incompetence in order to force a re-think and a solution. All indications suggest we're on that path.

Once or twice here my thoughts on Farridge have been tweaked for family consumption. A shame but hey, them's the rules.

 

[The Ham]

Will he realise, I wonder, why this is?

It's it because it's so easy to move from the UK to the EU?

If only someone had been campaigning against freedom of movement so the British youth couldn't move away...

 

[AM9]

Will he realise, I wonder, why this is?

Of course he realises, he's just craving media attention as usual.

 

[nw1]

Nigel Farage is complaining that young people are leaving the UK for Italy and Portgual.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1616822903462367233

I doubt more are leaving now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, given that he (along with Johnson, Cummings and all those other right-wing losers) has made it very difficult for people to emigrate to anywhere except Ireland. So what he's complaining about, I don't know.

Thank you, Nigel, for restricting our choices where to live.

 

[Howardh]

I doubt more are leaving now compared to 10 or 20 years ago, given that he (along with Johnson, Cummings and all those other right-wing losers) has made it very difficult for people to emigrate to anywhere except Ireland. So what he's complaining about, I don't know.

Thank you, Nigel, for restricting our choices where to live.

What's worse is that soon Gibraltar, our very own Gibraltar no less, and it's not even in the EU, is poised to join the Schengen Zone so we - UK citizens - will (probably) require a full passport, the ETIAS visa waiver form, fingerprinting and eye scans, and all for stays of 90 days in 180. Any longer, or anyone wishing to work/reside/retire there will need the full-on Schengen Visa.

I put *probably* in brackets on the grounds that negotiations are still going on, but if the border between Spain and Gibraltar is to be fully open, then we will have to go through passport/customs etc on flying in to Gib so we would be allowed to cross that border.

Stinks, it does, after all we had a absolute right to live, work, enter, retire etc Gibraltar with just our UK passport.

The only hope is thta negotioations collapse and they make the Spain/Gib border exactly the same as any UK/EU border so that's where the profiling/ETIAS comes in, and not flying into the airport. However that would be chaotic for the workers and shoppers crossing daily in both directions.

Thanks, Nigel. I'd like to buy you a pint and throw it over your head.

ETIAS for British | EU Entry Requirements for UK Citizens

Discover what will be required for all UK travelers to apply for an ETIAS visa waiver online before traveling to Europe from 2025.

www.etias.info

Gibraltar will join the EU’s borderless Schengen area now Britain has left Europe following Brexit, after the UK and Spain reached a temporary deal which is due to be turned into a treaty by the European Union in the coming months.

Britain left the European bloc officially on 31st January 2020, and began an 11 month transition period to negotiating the terms of a deal with the EU, although an agreement confirming freedom of movement between Spain and Gibraltar was not certain until the very end of the process.

However, it has now been confirmed that the territory will indeed form part of the Schengen agreement for passport free-travel between members allowing over 14,000 workers to continue to enter and exit the semi-exclave daily without a passport in the wake of the Brexit split.

This article looks at how visiting “the Rock” could be affected by the changes to Gibraltar now that the territory has become the newest member of the Schengen zone, and how the deal will work.

The future of travel to Gibraltar from the UK after Brexit​

Although all citizens of Schengen countries will now be able to enter Gibraltar using only their national ID card, British citizens will still be required to hold a valid passport and pass through passport checks in order to enter the exclave, as the UK is not and has never been a part of the Schengen Area.

Additionally, now that Gibraltar jas joined Schengen, UK citizens could need an ETIAS visa waiver in order to visit “the Rock” in the future.

This new Electronic Travel Authorization System is due to be launched in November 2023 and when it comes into effect it will be necessary for all visitors from visa waiver countries traveling to the Schengen Area to pre-register online and receive travel approval before they can enter any of its countries, which now includes Gibraltar.

 

[nw1]

What's worse is that soon Gibraltar, our very own Gibraltar no less, and it's not even in the EU, is poised to join the Schengen Zone so we - UK citizens - will (probably) require a full passport, the ETIAS visa waiver form, fingerprinting and eye scans, and all for stays of 90 days in 180. Any longer, or anyone wishing to work/reside/retire there will need the full-on Schengen Visa.

That's what I don't get about the Brexiters. They seem to think making our life difficult in this way is of no consequence.


(Joke, for those without a sense of humour): If I had my way I'd come to a deal with the EU so that hardcore Brexiters were completely banned from entering the EU... but the rest of us had the old freedom of movement back. That would be appropriate justice.

 

[adrock1976]

What's worse is that soon Gibraltar, our very own Gibraltar no less, and it's not even in the EU, is poised to join the Schengen Zone so we - UK citizens - will (probably) require a full passport, the ETIAS visa waiver form, fingerprinting and eye scans, and all for stays of 90 days in 180. Any longer, or anyone wishing to work/reside/retire there will need the full-on Schengen Visa.

I put *probably* in brackets on the grounds that negotiations are still going on, but if the border between Spain and Gibraltar is to be fully open, then we will have to go through passport/customs etc on flying in to Gib so we would be allowed to cross that border.

Stinks, it does, after all we had a absolute right to live, work, enter, retire etc Gibraltar with just our UK passport.

The only hope is thta negotioations collapse and they make the Spain/Gib border exactly the same as any UK/EU border so that's where the profiling/ETIAS comes in, and not flying into the airport. However that would be chaotic for the workers and shoppers crossing daily in both directions.

Thanks, Nigel. I'd like to buy you a pint and throw it over your head.

ETIAS for British | EU Entry Requirements for UK Citizens

Discover what will be required for all UK travelers to apply for an ETIAS visa waiver online before traveling to Europe from 2025.

www.etias.info

Perhaps may be the time in the near future for the UK to return Gibraltar to Spain, being as we invaded and took over that part of Spain in the name of imperialism and empire building?

Back in 1997, we rightfully returned Hong Kong (one of the several parts of Asia where we invaded and took over in the name of imperialism and empire building) to China.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Back in 1997, we rightfully returned Hong Kong (one of the several parts of Asia where we invaded and took over in the name of imperialism and empire building) to China.

I'm sure many people from Hong Kong wish we hadn't given what has gone on there in the last few years!

 

[Howardh]

That's what I don't get about the Brexiters. They seem to think making our life difficult in this way is of no consequence.

(Joke, for those without a sense of humour): If I had my way I'd come to a deal with the EU so that hardcore Brexiters were completely banned from entering the EU... but the rest of us had the old freedom of movement back. That would be appropriate justice.

Actually suggested something like that after the vote, I'd be prepared to pay an one-off grand to the EU to get my freedom of travel movement back - ie. just show my passport; no time limits, no fees for visas, no visas, just simple travel like it used to be, even before we were in the EEC/EU.

But, yes, we should have handed in our ID at the vote and those voting to remain should have kept our freedom of movement.

We are gonna do the same for EU'sEEA's wanting to come here as holidaymakers, force them to have a passport (many just use an ID card for getting around Europe) and an electronic visa, so it begs the question - a couple sat at home in Holland, France, Belgium or Germany may well muse...."shall we go to London shopping, but we'll have to buy a passport that we haven't got, and submit ourselves for profiling and stand in long queues...or go to Paris hassle-free instead?"

Just how many feet does the UK have to shoot itself?

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps may be the time in the near future for the UK to return Gibraltar to Spain, being as we invaded and took over that part of Spain in the name of imperialism and empire building?

Perhaps we can coordinate some sort of exchange? We'll return Gibraltar to Spain, if they return Melilla and Ceuta to Morocco? Though I suspect Spain will suddenly be less interested in anti-imperialism at that point...

 

[Howardh]

Perhaps may be the time in the near future for the UK to return Gibraltar to Spain, being as we invaded and took over that part of Spain in the name of imperialism and empire building?

Back in 1997, we rightfully returned Hong Kong (one of the several parts of Asia where we invaded and took over in the name of imperialism and empire building) to China.

And do exactly what something 98.97% of Gibraltar's residents don't want?? (2002 referendum) That's some democracy for you! In 1997 that was the time limit of a treaty. Gibraltar's treaty has no time limit. If they voted to be sapnish that's one thing, but they haven't and probably won't in the future.

Why not hand Falklands to Argentina?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jan 2023 ==

Perhaps we can coordinate some sort of exchange? We'll return Gibraltar to Spain, if they return Melilla and Ceuta to Morocco? Though I suspect Spain will suddenly be less interested in anti-imperialism at that point...

Those cities never belonged to Morocco in the first place, as they were built before Morocco became a country! That's the Spanish argument anyway!! But if we're into handing places back, what about our outposts in Cyprus, the UK naval bases?

 

[ainsworth74]

Those cities never belonged to Morocco in the first place, as they were built before Morocco became a country! That's the Spanish argument anyway!! But if we're into handing places back, what about our outposts in Cyprus, the UK naval bases?

I mean I'd rather do what the people of places want personally rather than just handing them over willy nilly. An argument could be made that just transferring sovereignty from one country to another without reference to the wishes of the inhabitants is rather, er, imperialist/colonialist... But if we're going down this road with Gibraltar I don't see why Spain shouldn't have to hand over its territories!

 

[Howardh]

I mean I'd rather do what the people of places want personally rather than just handing them over willy nilly. An argument could be made that just transferring sovereignty from one country to another without reference to the wishes of the inhabitants is rather, er, imperialist/colonialist... But if we're going down this road with Gibraltar I don't see why Spain shouldn't have to hand over its territories!

As someone who is mad keen on geography, I love these little outposts, and wish the UK had one part which was an exclave of another country. Although Portland Bill is significantly smaller than Gibraltar, it's roughly the same shape as a promontory we could have offered them that in exchange for keeping Gibraltar British! And perhaps give China part of London in return for keeping Hong Kong British?!!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What's worse is that soon Gibraltar, our very own Gibraltar no less, and it's not even in the EU, is poised to join the Schengen Zone so we - UK citizens - will (probably) require a full passport, the ETIAS visa waiver form, fingerprinting and eye scans, and all for stays of 90 days in 180. Any longer, or anyone wishing to work/reside/retire there will need the full-on Schengen Visa.

I put *probably* in brackets on the grounds that negotiations are still going on, but if the border between Spain and Gibraltar is to be fully open, then we will have to go through passport/customs etc on flying in to Gib so we would be allowed to cross that border.

Stinks, it does, after all we had a absolute right to live, work, enter, retire etc Gibraltar with just our UK passport.

Ummmm, how many UK citizens living in the UK do you think intend to move to Gibraltar and would therefore be disadvantaged by this decision (if it happens)?

I didn't know these negotiations were going on, but as far as I'm concerned, it's quite rightly up to the citizens of Gibraltar what passport/visa arrangements they wish to make with neighbouring countries. Off the top of my head, I would think that, given the geographical closeness to Spain and the numbers of people who commute daily between Spain and Gibraltar, it probably does make more sense for Gibraltar to have some kind of open arrangements for travel with Spain than it does for the rest of the UK, so if that's what the people of Gibraltar want, I don't see any huge objections.

I'm sorry, but saying this 'stinks' because you personally would no longer have an absolute right to go live in Gibraltar (were you ever intending to anyway?) sounds to me more like sour-grapes-selfishness than any concern for what's best for most people.