Brexit matters

[najaB]

The issue is we need more workers in the above break-even, and fewer in the below break-even.

Ah, okay. So the problem is that we had too many job vacancies below break even and not enough above. Gotcha.

 

[RT4038]

How strange that some still believe that all low paid employees are 'low-paid' owing to some shortfall in their work ethic/effort/ability. Equally, thatall highly paid workers are paid because they are worth their salary. Low paid employees are paid as little as their employer can get away with legally and some a bit more as a compassionate wage. I say this as a Londoner/south-east resident living in a wealthy city and a comfortable pension.

I don't think @27007 made any such inference at all. Wages are more related to supply and demand - too much supply to match demand suppresses wages, as has been amply demonstrated. FoM meant that the supply could not be controlled.

So, a privilege based on what is predominately ethnicity.

Yes - no country has responsibility or requirement to treat non citizens equally to citizens in respect of immigration or employment access. If that perpetuates privilege (in a world view) then so be it. Not sure ethnicity is particularly relevant, apart from the coincidence that citizens are often predominantly of one type.

There is a break-even point, above the break-even point all is well, the "tax-take" of the group is greater than the group draws from the system.
Below the break-even, the group draws more than is paid in. The issue is we need more workers in the above break-even, and fewer in the below break-even.
Immigrants on low-skilled wages were too many in number, the under break-even group, minumum wage earners pay only around £20 per week in income tax, education cost of a child is £5000 per annum, many immigrants were granted access to our system for a token contribution.
Post-Brexit points-based immigration system is right for the UK, unless the immigrant is employed at a pay of greater than £37000 per annum, then the applicant is declined

Perhaps a little more complicated than that, because the value added of the job being done also has to be taken into account. However, competing with indigenous labour, and driving down their standard of living, can be counter productive and a cause of the Brexit vote.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

Ah, blood and soil. That's always worked well in the past.

The alternative being not caring about them?

 

[E27007]

Yes - no country has responsibility or requirement to treat non citizens equally to citizens in respect of immigration or employment access. If that perpetuates privilege (in a world view) then so be it. Not sure ethnicity is particularly relevant, apart from the coincidence that citizens are often predominantly of one type.


The alternative being not caring about them?

The UK does care, UK was one of the most important net contributors to the EEC budget, The UK contribution to the EU27 of around £9 billion per annum, and about equal to the £9 billion from the EU to Poland.
The UK did accept the need to help develop and uplift those less fortunate states of the EU. We satisfied our collective responsibility towards the goals of the EU, but , there has to be a limit!

 

[GS250]

By your criteria a lot of the indigenous don't contribute. Should they be expelled to, say, Rwanda?

Yes!!!

 

[GusB]

By your criteria a lot of the indigenous don't contribute. Should they be expelled to, say, Rwanda?

Yes!!!

There we have it, folks. People who don't contribute should be deported. Let's not consider the reasons why they're not contributing, just get rid of them. Rwanda, concentration camps, gas chambers - doesn't matter really, as long as we're rid of them.

 

[GS250]

There we have it, folks. People who don't contribute should be deported. Let's not consider the reasons why they're not contributing, just get rid of them. Rwanda, concentration camps, gas chambers - doesn't matter really, as long as we're rid of them.

There's a reason there's a big sarcy smile there....

But thinking about it, those who have in many cases wasted opportunity after opportunity in a Western democracy could maybe learn something by spending time in such a country.

 

[GusB]

There's a reason there's a big sarcy smile there....

But thinking about it, those who have in many cases wasted opportunity after opportunity in a Western democracy could maybe learn something by spending time in such a country.

I ignored the smiley because the sentiment behind your statement appears to be true (as you have just confirmed). What a disgusting attitude.

 

[reddragon]

So are all Brexiteers just racist against someone or another, or is that just the impression that they give?

 

[GS250]

I ignored the smiley because the sentiment behind your statement appears to be true (as you have just confirmed). What a disgusting attitude.

I've also noticed lots of billboards mentioning 'Visit Rwanda' at a certain London based football club so clearly it isn't that bad a place?

Certainly more appealing than Portree in January....

 

[najaB]

[/QUOTE]

So are all Brexiteers just racist against someone or another, or is that just the impression that they give?

Pretty much all racists were pro-Brexit but it's not transitive - so a significant proportion of people who are/were pro-Brexit aren't racist.

 

[reddragon]

Pretty much all racists were pro-Brexit but it's not transitive - so a significant proportion of people who are/were pro-Brexit aren't racist.

Ahh the ones who keep quiet or switched side, get it!

 

[class ep-09]

Alternatively - the country had already been sold way down the river towards a single European state, and the pro-brexiteers have plucked it from a vassal future.

Still delusional …

 

[Doppelganger]

Still delusional …

Some have to believe this, as to not accept such a view would mean they admit leaving the EU was a mistake.

 

[reddragon]

Some have to believe this, as to not accept such a view would mean they admit leaving the EU was a mistake.

At the time of the vote, on the information and plan provided many Brexiteers were right to vote leave because for them it was their right thing to do. Today there is a strong need to accept that they were mis-informed or ill-informed or totally misled & lied to and that it was wrong on so many levels.

I was not anti-Brexit in 2016, just marginally pro remain. Now I am 100% anti-the Brexit we have but not the basic idea of a Brexit if well delivered. Only a change of public opinion & Government will even start to undo the mess we have caused.

 

[Annetts key]

If the problem is wages are too low, then the government should raise the minimum wage. That is entirely within the powers of the government and Parliament.

No , they are British citizens, they are indigenous, they belong here. I have every sympathy for my fellow countrymen less - fortunate than myself

It could be argued that everyone in the territories known as the United Kingdom are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Before humans made their way from mainland Europe to Great Britain and Ireland, these places were uninhabited. Therefore no one is indigenous. There is no such thing as a pure blood British citizen.

The U.K. is now a multicultural country. You don’t need to take my word for it. Just look at the new Liz Truss cabinet…

 

[reddragon]

If the problem is wages are too low, then the government should raise the minimum wage. That is entirely within the powers of the government and Parliament.


It could be argued that everyone in the territories known as the United Kingdom are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Before humans made their way from mainland Europe to Great Britain and Ireland, these places were uninhabited. Therefore no one is indigenous. There is no such thing as a pure blood British citizen.

The U.K. is now a multicultural country. You don’t need to take my word for it. Just look at the new Liz Truss cabinet…

My pure bred English mother took a DNA test only to find she was 25% German and a bit of Italian & Scandinavian. She didn't understand how that was possible!

Maybe every Brexiteer should do a DNA test to find out who they really are?

 

[alex397]

And doing things they should not , read local newspaper crime reports

Lovely bit of xenophobia here.

So a few Central/Eastern European ‘migrants’ commit crimes here. Shock horror! The majority certainly do not, so I find it distasteful that you would say something like this.

The reason I take such offence to comments like these is because I grew up fearful of anyone a bit foreign due to the constant right wing media reports. I genuinely thought most Eastern Europeans were probably criminals and I should stay away from them. I grew up in a Daily Mail household with family who very much believed their propaganda. It wasn’t until I actually met Eastern Europeans that I realised it was all cobblers. In fact, generally speaking I have found people from that part of the world friendlier and more community minded than the average Brit (I still think there’s lots of lovely Brits though).
I’m glad I had the intelligence to recognise it was a load of rubbish, and grew out of my xenophobia.

 

[reddragon]

Lovely bit of xenophobia here.

So a few Central/Eastern European ‘migrants’ commit crimes here. Shock horror! The majority certainly do not, so I find it distasteful that you would say something like this.

The reason I take such offence to comments like these is because I grew up fearful of anyone a bit foreign due to the constant right wing media reports. I genuinely thought most Eastern Europeans were probably criminals and I should stay away from them. I grew up in a Daily Mail household with family who very much believed their propaganda. It wasn’t until I actually met Eastern Europeans that I realised it was all cobblers. In fact, generally speaking I have found people from that part of the world friendlier and more community minded than the average Brit (I still think there’s lots of lovely Brits though).
I’m glad I had the intelligence to recognise it was a load of rubbish, and grew out of my xenophobia.

I was brought up by racist parents who hated the EU. Me and my 3 siblings all married foreigners, they hated it.

Then they got old & guess what? All their carers were those evil foreigners, mostly black and suddenly they discovered that jolly foreigner is nothing like what the Daily Mail says and were actually decent kind people unlike many British people.

People are people wherever they are from, whatever colour they are, male or female, rich or poor. The difference is little more than cultural.

Most of my friends are NOT English and that is because they are nicer, friendlier more decent people than too many English that I meet. That saddens me a lot. Brexit, The Daily Mail / Sun etc has created a country of hateful grumpy people, whilst the BBC has become all gloom & doom & the Government sucks. This is all a natural cycle that happens everywhere at some time or another. I hope we start to get out of it sooner rather than later!

 

[Bald Rick]

The UK contribution to the EU27 of around £9 billion per annum

Indeed. A couple of hundred million a week. And now that we are free from the shackles of the EU we can spend that money on the NHS - look how much better it is doing !

 

[317 forever]

When those 'indicative' votes were being cast during that period where Brexit was in severe danger of not happening, wasn't the largest vote to remain as members of the CU?

Yes that was the vote closest to a majority in favour.

It is perhaps regrettable that many pro-EU MPs voted Brexit legislation down in the hope of a softer Brexit, especially during Theresa May's hung Parliament. Had they been more pragmatic, for example voting for her withdrawal agreement, we may well have had a softer Brexit and without the problems of the Northern Ireland protocol.

They also failed to foresee the General Election - which they did vote for - giving the Tories a clear majority and therefore a mandate to implement this harder Brexit.

 

[AlterEgo]

Then they got old & guess what? All their carers were those evil foreigners, mostly black and suddenly they discovered that jolly foreigner is nothing like what the Daily Mail says and were actually decent kind people unlike many British people.

“Foreigners actually better than English people” followed up immediately with:

People are people wherever they are from, whatever colour they are, male or female, rich or poor. The difference is little more than cultural.

“people are the same everywhere” followed up literally immediately with this oikophobic guff:

Most of my friends are NOT English and that is because they are nicer, friendlier more decent people than too many English that I meet.

This explains much of your thinking and it is unwise to simply say you dislike your countrymen so much if you want your point of view to be taken seriously.

That saddens me a lot. Brexit, The Daily Mail / Sun etc has created a country of hateful grumpy people

Speak for yourself.

So many people in this thread tell on themselves and project their ill feeling onto it.

Brexit is pretty rubbish but I can’t say I go around with this misanthropic worldview all the time and I feel sorry for anyone who does.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It could be argued that everyone in the territories known as the United Kingdom are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Before humans made their way from mainland Europe to Great Britain and Ireland, these places were uninhabited. Therefore no one is indigenous. There is no such thing as a pure blood British citizen.

That is strictly true, but only if you go back so many generations that it becomes irrelevant to the EU debate. People still, for the most part, have a home country - which is where they've been brought up. The place whose cultural, ethical, and political values and way of life they have absorbed, and where they have citizenship. That is the kind of being 'indigenous' that is relevant to the immigration debate, not the theoretical nicety of whether 1000 years ago your descendants were direct migrants.

The U.K. is now a multicultural country. You don’t need to take my word for it. Just look at the new Liz Truss cabinet…

To be pedantic, the new Liz Truss cabinet is multi-ethnic. That doesn't necessarily imply, multi-cultural.

 

[AM9]

That is strictly true, but only if you go back so many generations that it becomes irrelevant to the EU debate. People still, for the most part, have a home country - which is where they've been brought up. The place whose cultural, ethical, and political values and way of life they have absorbed, and where they have citizenship. That is the kind of being 'indigenous' that is relevant to the immigration debate, not the theoretical nicety of whether 1000 years ago your descendants were direct migrants.



To be pedantic, the new Liz Truss cabinet is multi-ethnic. That doesn't necessarily imply, multi-cultural.

Well it's bi-cultural at least, the odd-one still living in pre-Victorian times.

 

[Perthsaint]

That is strictly true, but only if you go back so many generations that it becomes irrelevant to the EU debate. People still, for the most part, have a home country - which is where they've been brought up. The place whose cultural, ethical, and political values and way of life they have absorbed, and where they have citizenship. That is the kind of being 'indigenous' that is relevant to the immigration debate, not the theoretical nicety of whether 1000 years ago your descendants were direct migrants.



To be pedantic, the new Liz Truss cabinet is multi-ethnic. That doesn't necessarily imply, multi-cultural.

To be pedantic, culture is a personal thing therefore the Truss cabinet is multi-cultural.

 

[TwoYellas]

I'm all for equality and opportunity but could the Tory party please also ensure the appointees have at least a shred of humanity in them.

We evolve as we go along I guess.

 

[najaB]

To be pedantic, culture is a personal thing therefore the Truss cabinet is multi-cultural.

Err... by definition, culture relates to groups rather than individuals:

the way of life, especially the general customs and beliefs, of a particular group of people at a particular time

culture

1. the way of life, especially the general customs and beliefs, of a particular…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[GS250]

Yes that was the vote closest to a majority in favour.

It is perhaps regrettable that many pro-EU MPs voted Brexit legislation down in the hope of a softer Brexit, especially during Theresa May's hung Parliament. Had they been more pragmatic, for example voting for her withdrawal agreement, we may well have had a softer Brexit and without the problems of the Northern Ireland protocol.

They also failed to foresee the General Election - which they did vote for - giving the Tories a clear majority and therefore a mandate to implement this harder Brexit.

Also....Gina Miller's legislation that initially caused a right hoo haa amongst the pro brexit community....actually ended up being responsible for a harder brexit.

 

[TwoYellas]

Also....Gina Miller's legislation that initially caused a right hoo haa amongst the pro brexit community....actually ended up being responsible for a harder brexit

Reminds me of those halcyon days when the good rallied and stood up (on social media) to the 'Enemies of the People', as dutifully identified by 'the Fail'!

 

[Annetts key]

That is strictly true, but only if you go back so many generations that it becomes irrelevant to the EU debate. People still, for the most part, have a home country - which is where they've been brought up. The place whose cultural, ethical, and political values and way of life they have absorbed, and where they have citizenship. That is the kind of being 'indigenous' that is relevant to the immigration debate, not the theoretical nicety of whether 1000 years ago your descendants were direct migrants.

Everybody is obviously born somewhere, but some (not many, granted) are born on a ship in international waters. Most do have a home country, that is a country where they were brought up. it may or may not be the country where they were born. Either of these may be a place where they learn the cultural, ethical, and political values and way of life that is normal for that country. Or they may move around and learn cultural, ethical, and political values and way of life for another area. But the same could be said for different areas within the same country.

And in countries where the religious views are similar, often there is more in common between people of different countries than there are differences. Granted, this is not universal.

Citizenship is an artificial construct and is not really fixed in stone.

Hence, with respect, I disagree. Us humans are very adaptable. We do things differently as a result of technology and due to ideas that make their way into our society from other countries. I don’t see why we have to have so many human made artificial dividing lines. The people that benefit are the rich and the powerful. Not the rest of the population.

 

[najaB]

Citizenship is an artificial construct and is not really fixed in stone.

Yes and no. Citizenship is simply kinship scaled up, perhaps past the point where it makes any practical sense, but it's the same concept as being a member of the tribe.