Brexit matters

[RT4038]

Tell that to the millions of Brits abandoned abroad, no longer able to retire or spend the winter in the Costas or who married / partnered with an EU citizen. Far more British citizens used this freedom than EU citizens coming here!

No millions of Brits have been abandoned abroad - all those there were presumably legally there with appropriate paperwork, and part of the departure agreement was that they could remain. Those who are married / partnered to EU citizens are in the same position as those married / partnered to non EU citizens - got to make sure their paperwork is correct.

Far more British citizens used this freedom than EU citizens coming here!

Maybe, but (mainly) the UK people who gained from going there, were not the same UK people who were affected by EU citizens coming here. UK citizens, by and large, did not enter the local job market [apart from dealing with UK expats and tourists] in other EU countries - there were no opportunities for them in the last 30 years. Politicians and bureaucrats have made exactly the same mistake as you in thinking these cancel each other out - they don't, and are a contributory factor to the Brexit vote.

I'm fed up with, "we could trade with the US or Australia", "get our tomatoes from California". As Ukraine has shown, products come from set places with stable supply lines. There is no magic cheap available supply from anywhere else without a cost & time implication. EU friends tell me that many food products became cheaper with Brexit as the high UK prices caused theirs to be too high. They are happy with Brexit but worry how we get our food now. So am I!

The markets and production capacities will adjust, as will the economies. I am glad your EU friends are happy with Brexit, plenty of my UK friends are too! Hopefully we'll all be able to get along just fine - naturally there will be some bumps on the way, but then any change of this magnitude will cause that, in conjunction with covid, climate change and wars.

 

[najaB]

UK citizens, by and large, did not enter the local job market [apart from dealing with UK expats and tourists] in other EU countries - there were no opportunities for them in the last 30 years.

I personally know many British citizens working in the EU. There were plenty of job opportunities in Germany, France, etc. I agree that there were fewer job opportunities in the former Warsaw Pact countries.

 

[RT4038]

I personally know many British citizens working in the EU. There were plenty of job opportunities in Germany, France, etc. I agree that there were fewer job opportunities in the former Warsaw Pact countries.

But this disingenuous. There were none in the types of work that those most affected by the influx of FoMers into the UK (obviously, otherwise the FoMers would have gone there.). This is where the problem was - without control on numbers, wage rates and opportunities in those areas of work were depressed for the resident population. This didn't happen in any problem numbers until the Eastern bloc accession countries joined. In over 5,000 posts on this subject, no-one has yet advanced a solution for this. Nice houses in the Dordogne for the well heeled in exchange for falling living standards for UK plumbers (amongst other people, on both sides of the coin). Coupled to concentrations of FoMers in certain geographical areas. I know you feel that this was just too bad and a price worth paying for the opportunities of others, but this contributed to the Brexit vote. Maybe the UK Government could have stemmed this influx (although I think this 'facility' was not of practicable application in this country). Maybe if the UK had a Health and Social Security system built on pseudo- insurance lines like most EU countries, which prevents new immigrants from the benefits. But we haven't, and politically are not going to get one (especially now the EU can't issue a binding Directive on us).

 

[reddragon]

But this disingenuous. There were none in the types of work that those most affected by the influx of FoMers into the UK (obviously, otherwise the FoMers would have gone there.). This is where the problem was - without control on numbers, wage rates and opportunities in those areas of work were depressed for the resident population. This didn't happen in any problem numbers until the Eastern bloc accession countries joined. In over 5,000 posts on this subject, no-one has yet advanced a solution for this. Nice houses in the Dordogne for the well heeled in exchange for falling living standards for UK plumbers (amongst other people, on both sides of the coin). Coupled to concentrations of FoMers in certain geographical areas. I know you feel that this was just too bad and a price worth paying for the opportunities of others, but this contributed to the Brexit vote. Maybe the UK Government could have stemmed this influx (although I think this 'facility' was not of practicable application in this country). Maybe if the UK had a Health and Social Security system built on pseudo- insurance lines like most EU countries, which prevents new immigrants from the benefits. But we haven't, and politically are not going to get one (especially now the EU can't issue a binding Directive on us).

Internal migration within the UK by British Citizens has been a bigger issue causing more housing problems than EU citizens due to the closure of industry in the 'North' and all investment being in London.

Isn't this a bigger issue to address?

 

[RT4038]

Internal migration within the UK by British Citizens has been a bigger issue causing more housing problems than EU citizens due to the closure of industry in the 'North' and all investment being in London.

Isn't this a bigger issue to address?

I don't think it had any bearing on the Brexit vote, or on the subject of this thread 'Brexit matters'. We can discuss that if you want to start a new thread.

 

[najaB]

But this disingenuous.

How is it disingenuous? The whole point of Freedom of Movement is that people can move where there are jobs that they are skilled to fill. The EU to UK migration wasn't only low-skill workers - in my company we have programmers who moved here from former Warsaw Pact countries, it wasn't just people working in the hospitality or care sectors.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think it had any bearing on the Brexit vote, or on the subject of this thread 'Brexit matters'. We can discuss that if you want to start a new thread.

It was one of the reasons for general discontent in many of the areas that voted for Brexit, call it the "kick Cameron" vote...

 

[RT4038]

It was one of the reasons for general discontent in many of the areas that voted for Brexit, call it the "kick Cameron" vote...

An incredibly foolish thing to do then. They've got what they deserve. You don't go 'kicking' people in single issue Referenda. Now they've learnt the hard way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

How is it disingenuous? The whole point of Freedom of Movement is that people can move where there are jobs that they are skilled to fill. The EU to UK migration wasn't only low-skill workers - in my company we have programmers who moved here from former Warsaw Pact countries, it wasn't just people working in the hospitality or care sectors.

There are / was a large quantity of people in the UK who did not have the skills to compete for jobs elsewhere in the EU, but were subjected to competition for their own jobs. Anyone who thought that these people were going to upskill was sadly deluded; they voted to close off the competition - Brexit.

Those politicians (in both the UK and in the EU) who did not recognise this problem, and deal with it, are a major cause of this vote.

 

[najaB]

There are / was a large quantity of people in the UK who did not have the skills to compete for jobs elsewhere in the EU, but were subjected to competition for their own jobs. Anyone who thought that these people were going to upskill was sadly deluded; they voted to close off the competition - Brexit.

As always, people chose/were convinced to choose the easy non-solution. Instead of investing in training so that we could grow our economy we make it smaller by limiting opportunities.

 

[GS250]

An incredibly foolish thing to do then. They've got what they deserve. You don't go 'kicking' people in single issue Referenda. Now they've learnt the hard way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==


There are / was a large quantity of people in the UK who did not have the skills to compete for jobs elsewhere in the EU, but were subjected to competition for their own jobs. Anyone who thought that these people were going to upskill was sadly deluded; they voted to close off the competition - Brexit.

Those politicians (in both the UK and in the EU) who did not recognise this problem, and deal with it, are a major cause of this vote.

Exactly this. Those in nice cosy unionised 'safe' jobs had little idea of the suppression going on in the more manual unskilled and skilled positions. Yes...there was a need to fill some positions with EU labour but the real question is why were Brits not taking them? A question for parents, schools and society in general.

Btw I believe the EU did actually try to restrict numbers from the former Eastern Bloc nations to the West. Didn't Germany and Austria sign up for this? The Blair government though went for totally unrestricted numbers. For all my misgivings of the EU they were not fully to blame for the huge influx from the East.

 

[RT4038]

As always, people chose/were convinced to choose the easy non-solution. Instead of investing in training so that we could grow our economy we make it smaller by limiting opportunities.

Hardly surprising and totally predictable though. Exactly what training would you be investing in, so these workers could compete with Eastern Bloc FOMers elsewhere in Europe? The FOMers came because they were happy to undercut residents, as they were coming from countries with a lower standard of living. Of course, if you think plumbers can easily be trained as scientists, as well as teaching them 10 languages (because they won't be sure in which country there is a job).
Reminds me of another group of people in the 1930s in a similar position, elsewhere in the world...

 

[edwin_m]

An incredibly foolish thing to do then. They've got what they deserve. You don't go 'kicking' people in single issue Referenda. Now they've learnt the hard way.

Unfortunately the rest of us have got what they deserve too. Obviously voters are not meeting your expectations of intelligence and good sense. Maybe if they did they would be able to get jobs in the EU.

 

[najaB]

Of course, if you think plumbers can easily be trained as scientists, as well as teaching them 10 languages (because they won't be sure in which country there is a job).

Plumbers are hardly low pay, low skill though are they?

 

[E27007]

How is it disingenuous? The whole point of Freedom of Movement is that people can move where there are jobs that they are skilled to fill. The EU to UK migration wasn't only low-skill workers - in my company we have programmers who moved here from former Warsaw Pact countries, it wasn't just people working in the hospitality or care sectors.

In the case of highly skiled workers such as coders, I have no issue, however the fact that areas of high unemployment such as South Yorkshire, areas of low-wages and low social mobility, Doncaster being in the bottom 10% for mobilty (Govt Report), attracted considerable numbers of East Europeans of low-skills and poor work ethic, not particularly seeking work, they were attracted by British welfare benefits, for some East European countries, life on British unemployment welfare was an improvement in prosperity compared to their wage earnings in their native countries, such the disparity between wages and prices between the respective economies.

 

[Cloud Strife]

UK citizens, by and large, did not enter the local job market [apart from dealing with UK expats and tourists] in other EU countries - there were no opportunities for them in the last 30 years.

What? I have friends who moved to Poland in 1990-1991 (when the country was in a deep economic crisis) and found plenty of opportunity there. These days, more and more Brits are turning up in PL because of the tech sector booming, combined with very favourable (as little as 5%!) taxation.

Plenty of British labourers found their fortune in West Germany, too.

but the real question is why were Brits not taking them?

The reason is simple: the welfare trap. Would you work 40 hours of smelly backbreaking work in a fish factory when you could sit at home and have 20-30 quid less to live on?

As always, people chose/were convinced to choose the easy non-solution. Instead of investing in training so that we could grow our economy we make it smaller by limiting opportunities.

One caveat: the issue with most training is that it's totally useless. I have a friend who did some Excel training provided through the Jobcentre, and he absolutely loved it. He flew through the course, and when he completed it, he went back to the Jobcentre to ask them for an intermediate course. The answer? "computer says no", as in there was simply nothing for him.

The pillock dealing with him didn't even understand that an accountancy course was a logical progression, and of course, with only basic Excel skills, he wasn't employable. The logical state of affairs, that the jobcentre fund him to do an intermediate course, was simply ruled out because the computer didn't offer it. Meanwhile, the jobcentre kept sending him for interviews for physical, backbreaking work, and my friend intentionally ruined every interview because he had no interest in doing it.

for some East European countries, life on British unemployment welfare was an improvement in prosperity compared to their wage earnings in their native countries

Where were they getting British unemployment welfare from? They certainly couldn't just turn up and claim it!

 

[tomuk]

Tell that to the millions of Brits abandoned abroad, no longer able to retire or spend the winter in the Costas or who married / partnered with an EU citizen.

Millions of Brits haven'r been abandoned abroad, they retain the right to stay where they are nd obtain residency\citizenship if they want.

Far more British citizens used this freedom than EU citizens coming here!

That is completely false. Nearly twice as many EU citizens took advantage of FOM as UK citizens. And of those who did the majority destinations were Ireland, France and Spain, mainly retirees to the Costas or French Gites not that many workers.

 

[Bald Rick]

attracted considerable numbers of East Europeans of low-skills and poor work ethic, not particularly seeking work, they were attracted by British welfare benefits, for some East European countries, life on British unemployment welfare was an improvement in prosperity compared to their wage earnings in their native countries, such the disparity between wages and prices between the respective economies.

Ah.. Schrödinger’s Immigrants, over here taking our jobs and lounging about on benefits.

If I was an Eastern European attracted to come to Britain to sit around doing nothing whilst claiming benefits, Doncaster wouldn’t exactly be top of my list of potential places to live.

 

[RT4038]

Plumbers are hardly low pay, low skill though are they?

Not low skill, but the pay soon reduced to effectively what an FOMer was prepared to do the job for. The middle classes loved it of course, plenty of tradesmen at lower rates; little did they realise it was sowing the seeds for Brexit.

What? I have friends who moved to Poland in 1990-1991 (when the country was in a deep economic crisis) and found plenty of opportunity there. These days, more and more Brits are turning up in PL because of the tech sector booming, combined with very favourable (as little as 5%!) taxation.

Plenty of British labourers found their fortune in West Germany, too.

But it was not tech sector people who felt their livelihoods threatened by FOMers in the UK in 2016, was it? British labourers have not found their fortune in West Germany for the last 30 years though. At the time of the referendum people would have been thinking about what was happening then, not a golden era twenty plus years previously.

 

[E27007]

One caveat: the issue with most training is that it's totally useless. I have a friend who did some Excel training provided through the Jobcentre, and he absolutely loved it. He flew through the course, and when he completed it, he went back to the Jobcentre to ask them for an intermediate course. The answer? "computer says no", as in there was simply nothing for him.

The pillock dealing with him didn't even understand that an accountancy course was a logical progression, and of course, with only basic Excel skills, he wasn't employable. The logical state of affairs, that the jobcentre fund him to do an intermediate course, was simply ruled out because the computer didn't offer it. Meanwhile, the jobcentre kept sending him for interviews for physical, backbreaking work, and my friend intentionally ruined every interview because he had no interest in doing it.

You describe the Jobcentre process with some inside knowledge, , to make the Jobcentre monthly targets, we need to "bury" you from time to time, so, we send out-of-work Brickies on training courses to be Chippies, and , we send out-of-work Chippies on traing courses to be Brickies. QED!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

Ah.. Schrödinger’s Immigrants, over here taking our jobs and lounging about on benefits.

And doing things they should not , read local newspaper crime reports

 

[GusB]

And doing things they should not , read local newspaper crime reports

Brits commit crimes too.

 

[AM9]

This thread gravitates back to xenophobic issues every few posts. Maybe that was the core issue with the referendum, yet most leavers weren't able to openly express their feelings on that matter.

 

[Annetts key]

I’m still waiting for someone to explain how I will benefit from the returned “sovereignty”…
Because I live in a constituency with a mostly loyal conservative MP, I’ve given up trying to get them to listen to my point of view. They normally vote with the government. From my point of view, it’s close to being a form of dictatorship…

By then I think we will realise that we need the EU as by then we will be one of the poor men of Europe.

With the rate things are going in this country, we may rapidly be heading towards being a lot poorer than we were before we left the E.U., and may soon end up becoming one of the poor countries in Europe.

…falling living standards for UK plumbers

By the way, where are all these plumbers? In my part of the country, it’s extremely hard to find a plumber.

Maybe if the UK had a Health and Social Security system built on pseudo- insurance lines like most EU countries, which prevents new immigrants from the benefits.

Err, our system NEEDS lots of young workers in order to get funds (in the form of taxes) to keep the system funded. Current government income pays for the NHS and other health funding, social security, pensions etc. With our system, if the number of young workers falls while people continue living longer, the system will come under ever increasing financial pressure.

As pointed out earlier, the people who moved here can’t have taken “our jobs” if they were on benefits. If they were working and paying taxes, why shouldn’t they get the benefits of our system?

 

[najaB]

I’m still waiting for someone to explain how I will benefit from the returned “sovereignty”…

It won't be by eating salad...

Huge areas of one of Britain’s biggest salad growing hubs will be replaced with housing estates, as growers give up in despair, and cash in their land.

The Lea Valley, also known as the cucumber capital and Britain’s salad bowl, is one of the diamonds of the UK’s embattled horticultural sector. The Lea Valley Growers Association (LVGA), seeded through an area running across Greater London, Essex and Hertfordshire, comprises more than 180 hectares (450 acres) of glasshouses, run by 80 growers. The valley should be a jewel in the crown for a country concerned with homegrown industry and food security.


But hit by Brexit, a flawed Home Office plan for workers, and now rising energy prices, more than a third of the growers have applied for planning permission to knock down 60 hectares of greenhouses to replace them with housing estates, warehouses and small factories. Their applications have been granted.

‘Cucumber capital’ growers selling up as Brexit and energy crisis hits Britain’s vegetable industry

A flawed government plan for workers adds to problems as growers apply to pull down 60 hectares of greenhouses

www.theguardian.com

 

[GusB]

It won't be by eating salad...

‘Cucumber capital’ growers selling up as Brexit and energy crisis hits Britain’s vegetable industry

A flawed government plan for workers adds to problems as growers apply to pull down 60 hectares of greenhouses

www.theguardian.com

Aye, but salad's just for woke, liberal lefty types along with quinoa, couscous and other such "foreign muck". Pie'n'mash all the way and to hell with being adventurous with food

 

[edwin_m]

Aye, but salad's just for woke, liberal lefty types along with quinoa, couscous and other such "foreign muck". Pie'n'mash all the way and to hell with being adventurous with food

I heard we're heading for another CO2 shortage, so pork pies could be in jeopardy.

 

[E27007]

Err, our system NEEDS lots of young workers in order to get funds (in the form of taxes) to keep the system funded. Current government income pays for the NHS and other health funding, social security, pensions etc. With our system, if the number of young workers falls while people continue living longer, the system will come under ever increasing financial pressure.

As pointed out earlier, the people who moved here can’t have taken “our jobs” if they were on benefits. If they were working and paying taxes, why shouldn’t they get the benefits of our system?

There is a break-even point, above the break-even point all is well, the "tax-take" of the group is greater than the group draws from the system.
Below the break-even, the group draws more than is paid in. The issue is we need more workers in the above break-even, and fewer in the below break-even.
Immigrants on low-skilled wages were too many in number, the under break-even group, minumum wage earners pay only around £20 per week in income tax, education cost of a child is £5000 per annum, many immigrants were granted access to our system for a token contribution.
Post-Brexit points-based immigration system is right for the UK, unless the immigrant is employed at a pay of greater than £37000 per annum, then the applicant is declined

 

[Perthsaint]

There is a break-even point, above the break-even point all is well, the "tax-take" of the group is greater than the group draws from the system.
Below the break-even, the group draws more than is paid in. The issue is we need more in the above break-even, and fewer in the below break-even.
Immigrants on minimum wage were too many in number, they were mainly of under break-even group, minumum wage earners pay only around £20 per week in income tax, education cost of a child is £5000 per annum, immigrants were granted access to our system for a token contribution.
Post-Brexit points-based immigration system is right for the UK, unless the immigrant is employed at a pay of greater than £37000 per annum, then the applicant is declined

By your criteria a lot of the indigenous don't contribute. Should they be expelled to, say, Rwanda?

 

[E27007]

By your criteria a lot of the indigenous don't contribute. Should they be expelled to, say, Rwanda?

No , they are British citizens, they are indigenous, they belong here. I have every sympathy for my fellow countrymen less - fortunate than myself

 

[AM9]

There is a break-even point, above the break-even point all is well, the "tax-take" of the group is greater than the group draws from the system.
Below the break-even, the group draws more than is paid in. The issue is we need more workers in the above break-even, and fewer in the below break-even.
Immigrants on low-skilled wages were too many in number, the under break-even group, minumum wage earners pay only around £20 per week in income tax, education cost of a child is £5000 per annum, many immigrants were granted access to our system for a token contribution.
Post-Brexit points-based immigration system is right for the UK, unless the immigrant is employed at a pay of greater than £37000 per annum, then the applicant is declined

How strange that some still believe that all low paid employees are 'low-paid' owing to some shortfall in their work ethic/effort/ability. Equally, thatall highly paid workers are paid because they are worth their salary. Low paid employees are paid as little as their employer can get away with legally and some a bit more as a compassionate wage. I say this as a Londoner/south-east resident living in a wealthy city and a comfortable pension.
I am not ignorant of many elsewhere who in your terms are just 'work fodder' that look like a poor investment for the nation because they don't get enough wage to pay enough tax to cover their 'benefits'. Is this a typical leaver's view?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2022 ==

No , they are British citizens, they are indigenous, they belong here. I have every sympathy for my fellow countrymen less - fortunate than myself

So, a privilege based on what is predominately ethnicity.

 

[Perthsaint]

No , they are British citizens, they are indigenous, they belong here. I have every sympathy for my fellow countrymen less - fortunate than myself

Ah, blood and soil. That's always worked well in the past.