Brexit matters

[Bald Rick]

Neither really extensive.

Indeed there is not an extensive list of European nations that are outside the EU but in the Single Market.

That’s because pretty much all the European nations are inside the EU.

 

[najaB]

I fully maintain that remaining in the SM/CU was never a realistic option.

Tell that to the countries you listed above, all of whom seem pretty happy to be in the Single Market and/or Customs Union.

I don't recall being told that it was (not that I was taking much notice) but anybody believing that (regardless who told them) hadn't really thought it through.

You might not recall it, but it was most definitely presented as a realistic option. Or are you re-writing history to say that it wasn't?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Tell that to the countries you listed above, all of whom seem pretty happy to be in the Single Market and/or Customs Union.

You might not recall it, but it was most definitely presented as a realistic option. Or are you re-writing history to say that it wasn't?

Indeed it was. As Daniel Hannan said before the vote.

 

[GusB]

Indeed it was. As Daniel Hannan said before the vote.

Shhhh! Don't provide actual evidence!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed it was. As Daniel Hannan said before the vote.

On it's own that sentence sounds pretty damning. BUT... It's one single sentence with absolutely no context, no indication of when he was speaking or what the circumstances were, nothing about what question he was replying to. You have to ask, why did the person who posted that clip want to leave out all the context? What were they trying to hide?

Are people really gullible enough to think that that kind of context-less 8-second clip proves anything? I guess from the fact that at least one person posted it, and one other person has commented on it as if it amounts to serious evidence of anything, shows that the answer is, 'yes'

 

[AlterEgo]

Hannan was a founder of the Vote Leave campaign! He wasn't some random or hanger-on gobbing off when he shouldn't.

He's on record a few times, saying Britain should stay in the single market and that Brexit wouldn't be a vote to leave the SM.

Here he is again, saying, in retrospect, leaving the single market wasn't a good idea: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-have-saved-us-a-lot-of-trouble-41722813.html

 

[GusB]

On it's own that sentence sounds pretty damning. BUT... It's one single sentence with absolutely no context, no indication of when he was speaking or what the circumstances were, nothing about what question he was replying to. You have to ask, why did the person who posted that clip want to leave out all the context? What were they trying to hide?

Are people really gullible enough to think that that kind of context-less 8-second clip proves anything? I guess from the fact that at least one person posted it, and one other person has commented on it as if it amounts to serious evidence of anything, shows that the answer is, 'yes'

There's u-turning and then there's "Spinning around" (thanks, Kylie )

What about Farage and his Norway option?

 

[Cdd89]

I think the biggest mistake was not implementing it quickly. Done within a year, I think a much softer Brexit would have been palatable, and reduced complaints from those who wanted to remain.

Instead, after three years of arguing about how Brexit would work and the ensuing disillusion, it’s unsurprising that factions had had time to polarise into “no deal” and “remain”.

 

[RT4038]

Hannan was a founder of the Vote Leave campaign! He wasn't some random or hanger-on gobbing off when he shouldn't.

He's on record a few times, saying Britain should stay in the single market and that Brexit wouldn't be a vote to leave the SM.

Here he is again, saying, in retrospect, leaving the single market wasn't a good idea: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...-have-saved-us-a-lot-of-trouble-41722813.html

I don't see this as being contradictory - no doubt he wanted Britain to stay in the single market, but on terms which the EU were not prepared to offer. It is the conditions that come with staying in the Single Market which are the problem (basically effective loss of sovereignty and all that goes with that - FoM, Directives etc). If it was just a trading arrangement (and I realise why it cannot practically be that) then the UK would/could have stayed in.

Tell that to the countries you listed above, all of whom seem pretty happy to be in the Single Market and/or Customs Union.

Maybe they are, but each will have a unique set of circumstances.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't see this as being contradictory - no doubt he wanted Britain to stay in the single market, but on terms which the EU were not prepared to offer. It is the conditions that come with staying in the Single Market which are the problem (basically effective loss of sovereignty and all that goes with that - FoM, Directives etc).

But that was obvious all along - there are significant tradeoffs to being in the SM. Hannan wouldn't have been unaware of this, we had been in the SM for over 20 years.

Hannan said himself "nobody is talking about leaving the Single Market", er, yes, they were, because of the obvious tradeoffs.

 

[RT4038]

But that was obvious all along - there are significant tradeoffs to being in the SM. Hannan wouldn't have been unaware of this, we had been in the SM for over 20 years.

Hannan said himself "nobody is talking about leaving the Single Market", er, yes, they were, because of the obvious tradeoffs.

It may be obvious with hindsight , but I seem to recall that there was much talk at the time of the belief that the EU was going to bend over backwards to get the UK to stay in the Single Market because, inter alia, of the lucrative UK market in German built cars. Initially nobody (or precious few) were talking about leaving the Single Market, until it became obvious that the UK were not going to get anywhere near their having the cake and eating it (not far from the start).

 

[najaB]

It may be obvious with hindsight , but I seem to recall that there was much talk at the time of the belief that the EU was going to bend over backwards to get the UK to stay in the Single Market because, inter alia, of the lucrative UK market in German built cars. Initially nobody (or precious few) were talking about leaving the Single Market, until it became obvious that the UK were not going to get anywhere near their having the cake and eating it (not far from the start).

Translation: The pro-Brexiteers over-played their hand and chose to sell the country down the river rather than lose face.

 

[RT4038]

Translation: The pro-Brexiteers over-played their hand and chose to sell the country down the river rather than lose face.

Alternatively - the country had already been sold way down the river towards a single European state, and the pro-brexiteers have plucked it from a vassal future.

 

[edwin_m]

It may be obvious with hindsight , but I seem to recall that there was much talk at the time of the belief that the EU was going to bend over backwards to get the UK to stay in the Single Market because, inter alia, of the lucrative UK market in German built cars. Initially nobody (or precious few) were talking about leaving the Single Market, until it became obvious that the UK were not going to get anywhere near their having the cake and eating it (not far from the start).

And yet according to some on here, the average voter was expected to understand that what was being promised by the Leave campaign was not deliverable and vote accordingly. To apparently know more about it than those who either should have known what was possible and didn't, or deliberately misled the voters.

 

[reddragon]

But we don't decide things with referendums here. The referendum was simple - leave or remain.

Simple for remain for the reason I explained - stay in and continue as normal (and deal with issues as we did for everything else before).

Not simple for leave as there were a million different ways to leave, or else there would be no negotiations. It would be a straight hard Brexit at a given date and that's that. Which of course some people wanted.

The Swiss have an amazing voting system for projects, policies and spending / taxation choices.

2021 Swiss referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Swiss Referendums wiki page

Brexit and a 50% of those who voted option was always going to cause huge issues: -

1 - Many people change their minds or have different views on outcome. You need a higher pass mark to ensure the support of the public overall
2 - The most affected, EU citizens with settled status in the UK and UK citizens abroad had no vote. This vocal group have suffered a loss of their freedoms, aren't these human rights taken away?
3 - What was delivered was not what the majority voted for, even the most ardent Brexiteers cannot deny this.

The result is a Brexit few voted for, few support deep down and that has not met the aspirations of many of the UK population.

Basically we are in a lose lose situation compounded by covid, climate change and failed energy policies.

Oops!

 

[GS250]

Brexit and a 50% of those who voted option was always going to cause huge issues: -

1 - Many people change their minds or have different views on outcome. You need a higher pass mark to ensure the support of the public overall

I suppose this ties in with the present voting system. You need a reasonable majority to be able to form a singular government. You cannot sneak into office by the narrowest of margins. What that pass mark is though is open to question. 55%? 60%? 70%? There were never any pass marks set because those in power were so delusional about the outcome they never actually considered a leave victory of any margin.

2 - The most affected, EU citizens with settled status in the UK and UK citizens abroad had no vote. This vocal group have suffered a loss of their freedoms, aren't these human rights taken away?

Again...the delusion within the establishment never even considered they would need extra 'remain' votes. You could say though, that no one from the EU has been forced to go home. All were allowed to stay if they wanted to. The steady drain of EU workers had started before the referendum though. They had already worked out how expensive it was to live here. Not sure about the arrangement with UK citizens? However, you can be sure if there was a second referendum...they would have seeked out these extra votes.

3 - What was delivered was not what the majority voted for, even the most ardent Brexiteers cannot deny this.

I guess we will need to review after a decade or so. The fact it took so long to even evoke article 50 didn't help. Again...this comes from the sheer arrogance of the ruling class believing they would win.

The result is a Brexit few voted for, few support deep down and that has not met the aspirations of many of the UK population.

Basically we are in a lose lose situation compounded by covid, climate change and failed energy policies.

Oops!

Winners and losers. I agree though...the ability of the ruling class to deliver brexit was my biggest concern. Not the concept itself. When your heart isn't in something....are you ever really going to deliver?

 

[RT4038]

The Swiss have an amazing voting system for projects, policies and spending / taxation choices.

2021 Swiss referendums - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Brexit and a 50% of those who voted option was always going to cause huge issues: -

1 - Many people change their minds or have different views on outcome. You need a higher pass mark to ensure the support of the public overall
2 - The most affected, EU citizens with settled status in the UK and UK citizens abroad had no vote. This vocal group have suffered a loss of their freedoms, aren't these human rights taken away?
3 - What was delivered was not what the majority voted for, even the most ardent Brexiteers cannot deny this.

The result is a Brexit few voted for, few support deep down and that has not met the aspirations of many of the UK population.

Basically we are in a lose lose situation compounded by covid, climate change and failed energy policies.

Oops!

But to the Brexiteers none of this matters. The UK is out of the EU and the SM / CU. By all means punish those you feel responsible by voting them out at the next election. But it won't change the fundamental fact that the UK is out, and I doubt another referundum now would be much different in result. Instead of post after post complaining about how we got to this situation, and moaning 'We wuz robbed' , surely better to look forward to solving the issues that now present us, as you point out only a proportion of which is caused by Brexit (and which may or may not be better or worse by being outside the EU).

 

[reddragon]

But to the Brexiteers none of this matters. The UK is out of the EU and the SM / CU. By all means punish those you feel responsible by voting them out at the next election. But it won't change the fundamental fact that the UK is out, and I doubt another referundum now would be much different in result. Instead of post after post complaining about how we got to this situation, and moaning 'We wuz robbed' , surely better to look forward to solving the issues that now present us, as you point out only a proportion of which is caused by Brexit (and which may or may not be better or worse by being outside the EU).

The only outcome of this will be division!

Scotland wants to leave the UK and even Northern Ireland is looking South both firmly voting to remain. Many are looking to gain EU citizenship via various routes, an Irish passport being the most popular.

Skills shortages are a worldwide issue, so those here with skills, Engineers, Doctors, Dentists, Nurses, HGV/bus drivers will be attracted abroad for a better life lost due to Brexit. What a reversal eh!

There are some I know who'd I'd never imagined looking at a way out of the UK, die hard Brits fed up with what is happening yet nobody in power can see the freight train crash heading towards them.

 

[Gloster]

I don’t normally agree with RT4038, in fact I normally strongly disagree, but I do accept that we have left the EU and must do the best we can to cope with the resulting mess. I also think that the only reason to look back is to learn the lessons so that a better job is made of any attempt to return, although I doubt that that will be for at least a decade. By then I think we will realise that we need the EU as by then we will be one of the poor men of Europe.

I will comment that Lord Sugar is supposed to have said recently that if a company promoter had made a similar level of false claims and promises in a prospectuses as the Leave camp, they would have been prosecuted. Maybe there will be a day of reckoning.

But it won't change the fundamental fact that the UK is out, and I doubt another referundum now would be much different in result.

I am not so sure. If it was just before leaving I think there would be a small majority in favour of staying. If you held a referendum now which could somehow put things back six years, then I think there would be a clear majority in favour of staying where we were.

 

[Ediswan]

On it's own that sentence sounds pretty damning. BUT... It's one single sentence with absolutely no context, no indication of when he was speaking or what the circumstances were, nothing about what question he was replying to. You have to ask, why did the person who posted that clip want to leave out all the context? What were they trying to hide?

They didn't just leave out the context, they left out part of the audio. All I can actually hear is:

"Absolutely nobody is tal ................................................. place in the single market"

Can anybody here lip read ?

 

[reddragon]

I don’t normally agree with RT4038, in fact I normally strongly disagree, but I do accept that we have left the EU and must do the best we can to cope with the resulting mess. I also think that the only reason to look back is to learn the lessons so that a better job is made of any attempt to return, although I doubt that that will be for at least a decade. By then I think we will realise that we need the EU as by then we will be one of the poor men of Europe.

I will comment that Lord Sugar is supposed to have said recently that if a company promoter had made a similar level of false claims and promises in a prospectuses as the Leave camp, they would have been prosecuted. Maybe there will be a day of reckoning.

I am not so sure. If it was just before leaving I think there would be a small majority in favour of staying. If you held a referendum now which could somehow put things back six years, then I think there would be a clear majority in favour of staying where we were.

We have an entire political establishment that have taken a wrong turn and cannot accept that due to their own political dogma.

Something very dramatic needs to happen before the population let alone politicians accept that.

 

[najaB]

Instead of post after post complaining about how we got to this situation, and moaning 'We wuz robbed' , surely better to look forward to solving the issues that now present us, as you point out only a proportion of which is caused by Brexit (and which may or may not be better or worse by being outside the EU).

The vast majority of the issues that we are facing would be solved by re-joining at least the single market and customs union. Until then it's all moving the deckchairs on the Titanic.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2022 ==

Can anybody here lip read ?

You don't need to lipread, here's another version of the same clip:

 

[Ediswan]

You don't need to lipread, here's another version of the same clip:

That is the same URL posted by @DynamicSpirit, with the same problem.

I normaly use Firefox, so I tried Edge as well. Same problem.

 

[najaB]

That is the same URL posted by @DynamicSpirit, with the same problem.

I normaly use Firefox, so I tried Edge as well. Same problem.

I don't know what to say, it's 100% clear and uninterrupted for me and others. I downloaded it to my web server here: https://www.untestedtheory.co.uk/videos/DanielHannan.mp4

 

[Enthusiast]

Tell that to the countries you listed above, all of whom seem pretty happy to be in the Single Market and/or Customs Union.

You might not recall it, but it was most definitely presented as a realistic option. Or are you re-writing history to say that it wasn't?

I perhaps haven't made my point quite clear. Many (if not most) of the perceived problems that the electorate saw with EU membership were caused by membership of either the SM or the CU (or both). Arguably the single most contentious issue of EU membership was free movement of people. This is fundamental to the functioning of the SM and to have left the EU but remained in the SM would have been to have ignored one of the most important reasons many people voted to leave. Membership of the CU required the UK to apply the EU's external tariffs to goods originating from outside. Many of these tariffs did not suit the UK (or for that matter many other member nations) but they could not be avoided. Furthermore, membership of the CU prevents members from negotiating their own trade agreements. The trade agreements negotiate on members' behalf by the EU are necessarily a compromise to suit all the members as far as possible. The usual result is that everybody gets what nobody wants. Once again, to have left the EU but remained in the CU would have been pointless. It would have left the UK subject to the EU's trade deals without even the minimalist input that it had enjoyed as a member. As possibly the staunchest Leaver on here, even I accept that remaining would have been infinitely preferable to leaving the EU but retaining membership of the SM and CU. The EU is the SM and CU. They go together and just as membership of the EU without membership of the SM and CU would be impossible, non-membership of the EU whilst being constrained by the SM and CU would be completely pointless. I've really no idea why the few non-member states which do take part in either do so. Turkey's participation in the CU is limited as it does not include most agricultural goods. The microstates probably do so because I doubt the people of, say San Marino, would enjoy a hard border with Italy.

I'm not trying to re-write history. I simply don't recall such an option being suggested. But as I said, that's hardly surprising because nothing that was said in the run up to the referendum had any influence on me and I largely ignored most of it.

 

[najaB]

...non-membership of the EU whilst being constrained by the SM and CU would be completely pointless

Again, tell Norway that.

 

[GS250]

When those 'indicative' votes were being cast during that period where Brexit was in severe danger of not happening, wasn't the largest vote to remain as members of the CU?

 

[edwin_m]

I perhaps haven't made my point quite clear. Many (if not most) of the perceived problems that the electorate saw with EU membership were caused by membership of either the SM or the CU (or both). Arguably the single most contentious issue of EU membership was free movement of people.

Your opinion or supported by evidence?

And would "most" extend to the 25 out of every 26 Leave voters would still have had to vote to Leave to achieve the majority?

 

[Ediswan]

I don't know what to say, it's 100% clear and uninterrupted for me and others. I downloaded it to my web server here: https://www.untestedtheory.co.uk/videos/DanielHannan.mp4

This is all very odd. The first time I played your version it had echo, but no audio gap. Subsequent plays have the audio gap (but no echo). I should try on the Liunx system.

 

[reddragon]

I perhaps haven't made my point quite clear. Many (if not most) of the perceived problems that the electorate saw with EU membership were caused by membership of either the SM or the CU (or both). Arguably the single most contentious issue of EU membership was free movement of people.

Tell that to the millions of Brits abandoned abroad, no longer able to retire or spend the winter in the Costas or who married / partnered with an EU citizen. Far more British citizens used this freedom than EU citizens coming here!

Many of these tariffs did not suit the UK (or for that matter many other member nations) but they could not be avoided. Furthermore, membership of the CU prevents members from negotiating their own trade agreements. The trade agreements negotiate on members' behalf by the EU are necessarily a compromise to suit all the members as far as possible.

You are married & you have a large family. Some girl down the club offered you a better option, so you divorced / cheated on your wife only to find out that girl was too far away to date & see your family / kids. That's Brexit.

I'm fed up with, "we could trade with the US or Australia", "get our tomatoes from California". As Ukraine has shown, products come from set places with stable supply lines. There is no magic cheap available supply from anywhere else without a cost & time implication. EU friends tell me that many food products became cheaper with Brexit as the high UK prices caused theirs to be too high. They are happy with Brexit but worry how we get our food now. So am I!

The usual result is that everybody gets what nobody wants. Once again, to have left the EU but remained in the CU would have been pointless. It would have left the UK subject to the EU's trade deals without even the minimalist input that it had enjoyed as a member. As possibly the staunchest Leaver on here, even I accept that remaining would have been infinitely preferable to leaving the EU but retaining membership of the SM and CU. The EU is the SM and CU. They go together and just as membership of the EU without membership of the SM and CU would be impossible, non-membership of the EU whilst being constrained by the SM and CU would be completely pointless. I've really no idea why the few non-member states which do take part in either do so.

Well seems like remain was the best option then as at least 49% were happy with that one