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Brexit matters

najaB

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Why's that good at a country level, and a nominally supranational level (with states of very vaguely similar cultural backgrounds, but vastly unequal economic power!) but not globally?
In an ideal world, it would be global. However differing political ideologies and too many people seeing things in zero-sum terms means that the human race isn't ready for it yet.

For now, the first step is large trading blocs. Then, hopefully, at some point in the future the blocs can align.

Why is a UK single market a good idea?
Because a larger market is almost always better for businesses, and society in general. The fact that I'm not limited to my local area means that I can seek out opportunities that I wouldn't be able to if they didn't exist nearby.
 
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dgl

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Also on the Airports issue, a lot of staff (some who had been with airlines for many years) were sacked/made redundant rater than furloughed during the pandemic and then if they were asked back when things were returning to normal it was on much worse terms, naturally a lot of these ex. employees thought "nah, I am not going to be treated like this" and won't come back. Even more so now as they know passengers will take any fustrations out on them.
Plus a lot of them will now want work that would not be affected so much by a pandemic and are able to get it.

Basically if treat your staff poorly and get rid of them at the first sign of trouble don't expect them to come running back
 

AlterEgo

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Also on the Airports issue, a lot of staff (some who had been with airlines for many years) were sacked/made redundant rater than furloughed during the pandemic and then if they were asked back when things were returning to normal it was on much worse terms, naturally a lot of these ex. employees thought "nah, I am not going to be treated like this" and won't come back. Even more so now as they know passengers will take any fustrations out on them.
Plus a lot of them will now want work that would not be affected so much by a pandemic and are able to get it.

Basically if treat your staff poorly and get rid of them at the first sign of trouble don't expect them to come running back
Yes if only there were some sort of massive pool of foreign, cheap and willing labour, goes the Remain argument. Truly the friend of big business. Just get foreigners in to do it cheaper.
 

Mikw

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Yes if only there were some sort of massive pool of foreign, cheap and willing labour, goes the Remain argument. Truly the friend of big business. Just get foreigners in to do it cheaper.
At least they'd be someone doing it. We've got a labour shortage in this country. Crop pickers, HGV and airport staff are obvious examples.

Much good food will go to waste this year as there's no immigrant labour to pick the crops.

Would you? You'd have to live in rubbish accomadation miles from home for poor pay.
 

najaB

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Yes if only there were some sort of massive pool of foreign, cheap and willing labour, goes the Remain argument. Truly the friend of big business. Just get foreigners in to do it cheaper.
Like it or not, but the UK is in competition on a global market. We can either compete on cost or on quality - and we have, historically, some of the lowest productivity in the developed world.

There's no way that we can survive paying more than our competitors for less output.
 

AlterEgo

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At least they'd be someone doing it. We've got a labour shortage in this country. Crop pickers, HGV and airport staff are obvious examples.

Much good food will go to waste this year as there's no immigrant labour to pick the crops.

Would you? You'd have to live in rubbish accomadation miles from home for poor pay.
Absolutely not. I’d consider it if I got paid well and didn’t live in terrible conditions.

Good to hear “it’s inevitable we have to pay people terrible wages and also treat them badly but hey, it’ll get done!” as an argument in favour of…bringing in foreigners and treating them like dirt.

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Like it or not, but the UK is in competition on a global market. We can either compete on cost or on quality - and we have, historically, some of the lowest productivity in the developed world.

There's no way that we can survive paying more than our competitors for less output.
Terrible wages aren’t going to increase productivity.
 

najaB

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Terrible wages aren’t going to increase productivity.
And low productivity doesn't support higher wages.
Absolutely not. I’d consider it if I got paid well and didn’t live in terrible conditions.
You know how people are struggling with inflation....? Guess what will happen to food prices if farmers have to pay their workers significantly more.
 

Mikw

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Absolutely not. I’d consider it if I got paid well and didn’t live in terrible conditions.

Good to hear “it’s inevitable we have to pay people terrible wages and also treat them badly but hey, it’ll get done!” as an argument in favour of…bringing in foreigners and treating them like dirt.

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Terrible wages aren’t going to increase productivity.
Well, they may not consider they're treated terribly depending on where they've come from.

Poor wages to us are high wages to someone from a poor country. They can earn and then send some of the money back to help out their families who often live in poverty.

It's all relative. It usually helps "balance out" poverty to have freedom of movement. You go where the work is, and if you're from a poor country you'll be better off working in a richer one and it often helps your family situation at home too.

Potential "solutions" for the labour shortages are a return to "workfare". Where benefit claimants have to do the work, to keep their benefits, that keeps being mooted. So well below minimum wage, and with no rights whatsover.

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And low productivity doesn't support higher wages.
You know how people are struggling with inflation....? Guess what will happen to food prices if farmers have to pay their workers significantly more.
Very true. Food prices are already rocketing, higher wages will make them rocket more. The old system was far from perfect but it just about worked. A lot better than what we have now at any rate.
 
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AlterEgo

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Well, they may not consider they're treated terribly depending on where they've come from.
That’s alright then. You can treat them differently, and worse, if they’re foreign.
Poor wages to us are high wages to someone from a poor country. They can earn and then send some of the money back to help out their families who often live in poverty.
That’s still not an excuse to pay people less than they’re worth.
It's all relative. It usually helps "balance out" poverty to have freedom of movement. You go where the work is, and if you're from a poor country you'll be better off working in a richer one and it often helps your family situation at home too.
Does it really help people’s families to work thousands of miles away while the spouse raises children alone? That sounds like the least conservative argument one could make about “helping your family situation”.

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And low productivity doesn't support higher wages.
You know how people are struggling with inflation....? Guess what will happen to food prices if farmers have to pay their workers significantly more.
I guess life is all about paying someone crap wages as long as it doesn’t have to be you or I.
 

Mikw

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That’s alright then. You can treat them differently, and worse, if they’re foreign.

That’s still not an excuse to pay people less than they’re worth.

Does it really help people’s families to work thousands of miles away while the spouse raises children alone? That sounds like the least conservative argument one could make about “helping your family situation”.

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I guess life is all about paying someone crap wages as long as it doesn’t have to be you or I.
You're missing the point though.

Poor wages for us are great wages for someone in a poorer country.

All those money tranfer facilities in poorer areas are there for a reason. Large foreign workforces tend to send a proportion of their wages to their families at home, while doing jobs the native population don't find attractive.

So we're left with shortages, large quantities of food that will be destroyed because there's nobody to pick them, and a creaking infrastructure.


Poverty spec wages are relative depending on which country you come from.
 

AlterEgo

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Low wages or low prices. Choose one.
I’ll have Norway over Bulgaria any day.

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You're missing the point though.

Poor wages for us are great wages for someone in a poorer country.

All those money tranfer facilities in poorer areas are there for a reason. Large foreign workforces tend to send a proportion of their wages to their families at home, while doing jobs the native population don't find attractive.

So we're left with shortages, large quantities of food that will be destroyed because there's nobody to pick them, and a creaking infrastructure.


Poverty spec wages are relative depending on which country you come from.
No, I am not missing the point. Your point is precisely that it is fine for poorer and less aspirational foreigners to come and work, and that it is okay for them to be paid less because “well they’re foreign they don’t know better and stuff is bad over there, Britain is good so they can work for less than they’re worth”.

The reason most British people don’t find crop picking attractive is because it’s hard, long work with terrible wages, no social status and appalling treatment from many employers. If it was paying £20 an hour and you got good accommodation you’d soon see Brits doing it.
 

najaB

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I’ll have Norway over Bulgaria any day.
Ah, yes. Norway. Well known for it's massive domestic agricultural industry.

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If it was paying £20 an hour and you got good accommodation you’d soon see Brits doing it.
And they'd be paying (at least) twice as much for food - meaning that £20/hr wouldn't be worth it any more...
 

AlterEgo

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Ah, yes. Norway. Well known for it's massive domestic agricultural industry.
I’d still rather live in a country with higher prices than one with poverty wages. The relationship between the two isn’t a direct correlation. And I’m still surprised the response to “so it’s okay to pay people very bad wages” is “hey think of the prices, someone’s life is going to suck (won’t be me)”.
 

najaB

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I’d still rather live in a country with higher prices than one with poverty wages. The relationship between the two isn’t a direct correlation. And I’m still surprised the response to “so it’s okay to pay people very bad wages” is “hey think of the prices, someone’s life is going to suck (won’t be me)”.
What you seem to be ignoring is that increasing wages without a commensurate increase in productivity just increases prices. If the labour cost on a widget goes from £2 to £2.50 either the material cost has to come down by 50p or the price has to go up by 50p.

Why would or should UK consumers pay more for the UK-produced product when an imported alternative costs less? Why would they buy an inferior quality UK-produced product when a higher-quality imported item costs the same?
 
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The Ham

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Often many of the workers on farms would move around to work, as such if one farmer treated them badly they wouldn't go back, likewise if a country's system treated them badly they wouldn't go there.

The problem with "make the British do it" is that because of the need to move about with us having lost the ability to move within the EU freely is that any British don't it now have to only work in the UK, limiting what they can do.

The treatment of staff should be protected, with the rights of staff and responsibilities of employers clearly defined and enforced. It's something that the EU did by brining in rules to ensure that everyone is treated the same (such as the minimum of 20 days of leave for full time staff).

As to the impact on families, often those coming from the EU to do low paid jobs would do so when they were young (although like all things not always), with it being not unheard of for people to do so to earn enough to afford a home in their home country before then moving back to them carry on their life.

Likewise it's not unheard of people placing to do the above and then ending up staying (sometimes after then getting a job in what they are qualified in (for example as an architect) even though they started off doing low paid jobs. In staying they then settle down and start families.

It's also not unheard of young people sending money to their parents from their work elsewhere.

Yes for those who did have families (i.e. they are sending money to their wife to support her and the children) it would cause issues, however that is their choice. Now that may be that it's not really much of a choice, however I suspect that the numbers in that situation would likely be fairly limited in number. As such it could be argued that changing other rules rather than shutting down freedom of movement would be better.

Anyway, only the UK stoping freedom of movement isn't going to stop people do it and actually where the UK has 28 days as the minimum time off for full time workers those doing it could be better off than if they have to work in the next best country (earning wise) and only get 20 days of leave.

As such saying that we shouldn't have freedom of movement because people from other countries may be treated badly here without doing anything to stop them from being treated badly elsewhere isn't really helping them, is it?

As such I'd suggest it's a bit of a poor argument.

Likewise saying that low prices are important by only being able to provide then through badly treating your staff also isn't right.

However there is a middle way, have the countries within the free movement zone agree to minimum workers rights and ensure that there's ways to enforce then. Then over time ensure that the minimum rights improve so that there's less discrepancy between the best and worst.

Whilst that still may mean people moving to where jobs pay the most (like we see with people heading to London within the UK), the attractiveness of doing so reduces over time (not least due to the high cost of living in such places).

Given that London sea lots of people traveling there for work, with people commuting for long periods of time, potentially leaving their other half to raise the children in their own for much of the time, should we end freedom of movement to/from London within the UK or should we make it that conditions should be equal across the country so that fewer want to head to London for work? (It's a bit of an academic question as we already have equal, other than pay, conditions across the UK).
 

birchesgreen

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Interestingly one of my colleagues worked at an airport pre-covid on check-in. A few times she has mentioned that dealing with our most annoying customers is a walk in the park compared to what she had to deal with at the airport on a daily basis. Plus the working conditions were pretty awful overall. Why would she go back, hmm indeed.
 

Yew

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An interesting question that I saw in a post online that's worth asking anyone who is still pro-Brexit: If somehow Brexit was to be undone in by the stroke of a pen, what exactly would you miss?
Duty free in EU airports? That's about the only thing I can think of?

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That said, it's also about changing habits as well. Rather than vacuuming being a once-a-week thing because the machine is big and cumbersome you can pick up the cordless any time something spills or you notice some dust/dirt.
I get very nervous about the idea of intentionally trying to change peoples habits to achieve a goal, as this often has an underlying subtext of making things less convenient. But having recently bought a cordless vacuum, it is much more convenient than a corded machine, though I could see use for a high-suction machine for a once in a while deep clean.
 
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AM9

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Duty free in EU airports? That's about the only thing I can think of?

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I get very nervous about the idea of intentionally trying to change peoples habits to achieve a goal, as this often has an underlying subtext of making things less convenient. But having recently bought a cordless vacuum, it is much more convenient than a corded machine, though I could see use for a high-suction machine for a once in a while deep clean.
That's what industrial cleaners for hire are for.
 

Cloud Strife

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A few times she has mentioned that dealing with our most annoying customers is a walk in the park compared to what she had to deal with at the airport on a daily basis.

I saw a typical meltdown a couple of months ago. The guy brought an obscene amount of luggage, and when he was asked to pay for it, he started ranting and raving that his ticket entitled him to more baggage blah blah blah. The check-in agent tried her best, but it was plainly obvious that he was in the wrong. I can't imagine dealing with that kind of person day-in-day-out.

Conversely, in BER in February, I saw something interesting. Ahead of us, everyone was having their Covid-related documentation meticulously checked, but when our party of five came to the check-in deck, I showed the agent our folder with everything pre-printed and prepared. He took one look, laughed and said that there was absolutely no need to check the documentation because it was clear that we were prepared. From what I saw, quite a few people were completely unprepared, including several people who didn't even have their Covid passes on their phone available.
 

najaB

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I get very nervous about the idea of intentionally trying to change peoples habits to achieve a goal, as this often has an underlying subtext of making things less convenient.
To be clear, the goal in this case isn't environmental - it is Dyson, Hoover, et. al. trying to get you to buy their product. So it's pretty much par for the course advertising "This product is more convenient because instead of..."
 

dgl

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To be clear, the goal in this case isn't environmental - it is Dyson, Hoover, et. al. trying to get you to buy their product. So it's pretty much par for the course advertising "This product is more convenient because instead of..."
And a case of trying to get you to buy something new before you actually need it, a lot of the time by inferring that your item is outdated and not that good.
Your current product is old, have something new and shiny.
 

matacaster

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Absolutely not. I’d consider it if I got paid well and didn’t live in terrible conditions.

Good to hear “it’s inevitable we have to pay people terrible wages and also treat them badly but hey, it’ll get done!” as an argument in favour of…bringing in foreigners and treating them like dirt.

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Terrible wages aren’t going to increase productivity.
The previous availability of cheap foreign labour for say fruit picking made it uneconomic for companies to produce robotic pickers. However, now labour is in short supply, capital expenditure for such kit makes economic sense for farmers, so there are now quite a few companies producing such kit. (radio yesterday interviewed one on farming program). Whilst not easy, it is perfectly possible to produce such kit and means no need for awful back-breaking picking by anyone in a few years time.
 

najaB

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Whilst not easy, it is perfectly possible to produce such kit and means no need for awful back-breaking picking by anyone in a few years time.
Automation replacing low-skill jobs is, on the face of it, a good thing, but has the potential downside of higher unemployment unless new jobs can be created for the people who are displaced.
 

The Ham

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Automation replacing low-skill jobs is, on the face of it, a good thing, but has the potential downside of higher unemployment unless new jobs can be created for the people who are displaced.

Whilst that could be an issue, given our aging population, for the time being not really a significant issue at present.

Also automation doesn't always reduce by as much as people fear. Self service checkouts need 1 member of staff for (say) 8 tills, however in that space you'd have typically only got 4 tills and often not all of them would have been open.

However at the same time we've also seen significant increases in online shopping, which means that supermarkets have increased their staff to provide the picking and delivery service.

What maybe more of an issue is the lack of entry level jobs for people to use to gain entry to an organisation before then working their way upwards (although that may require moving jobs to achieve).
 

py_megapixel

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Trying to create jobs to compensate for ones lost to automation will be necessary in the short term, but doing it forever would be a fool's errand.

Ultimately we will need to accept that people will work less because there will be less work to do overall, and will be paid more for that work on average, because there will be less low-skill (and thus low-paid) work and also because they will need to live from less work. Some people, particularly on the far right, won't like this change as they will perceive it as facilitating laziness, but realistically the whole point of automation is to reduce the need for humans to carry out simple/monotonous tasks and thus improve quality of life through freeing up people's time.
 

Gloster

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... realistically the whole point of automation is to reduce the need for humans to carry out simple/monotonous tasks and thus improve quality of life through freeing up people's time.

The reason for automation for most businesses is to increase profits and to **** with the workers’ quality of life. For that matter, to **** with the workers as well, unless they can be turned into consumers.
 

najaB

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The reason for automation for most businesses is to increase profits and to **** with the workers’ quality of life. For that matter, to **** with the workers as well, unless they can be turned into consumers.
To give them their due, most employers recognise that improving worker's quality of life is to their benefit as well - happy workers are more productive workers.
 

AM9

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The reason for automation for most businesses is to increase profits and to **** with the workers’ quality of life. For that matter, to **** with the workers as well, unless they can be turned into consumers.
Whilst I might agree with the sentiment of your statement, there is another good reason for automation and that is to improve consistency and reliability where it is important. In the railway world, ATO is critical to achieve maximum line capacity safely by way of very short headways that would be impractical with human operation however good human operators were. Signalling similarly has been automated to a degree ever since mechanical interlocking was introduced.
 

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